Is the Pit Mine really the Lost Dutchman mine?

cactusjumper

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Thanks, Joe. One thing I always wondered, was how hard they had to work to get to any cache that was hidden in that old mine. I believe Ted Cox missed it. I always believed that Herman was looking for a covered mine that contained a cache.

Jim,

Much like the Kochera story, I believe most of it was made up. Anything that includes Ted Cox in the story, I have serious doubts about. Tom told me that Cox was a first class fabricator.

Take care,

Joe
 

PotBelly Jim

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Jim,

Much like the Kochera story, I believe most of it was made up. Anything that includes Ted Cox in the story, I have serious doubts about. Tom told me that Cox was a first class fabricator.

Take care,

Joe

Joe,

Makes sense. I had to develop a "Ted Cox Interpreter" capability. Mostly just a perturbed, overactive imagination, but a lot had a little truth that would set him off, and he would take it from there in any way that fit his ideas at the time ::).

What do you think of this picture and caption? From Jack San Felice's updated edition of Lost Eldorado of Jacob Waltz:

View attachment 1678715

To me it appears that Cox and crew were in the Pit Mine at some point. There's also the possibility that this pic is actually from the tunnel at Rogers Trough, and it was just mislabeled. I've never asked about it, but have often wondered...

Take care, Jim
 

markmar

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Good morning Jim

Can you find if Bud Dunn at one time of his life was married or lived in Harlan , Kentucky ?
 

sailaway

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The USGS did sampling in Rogers Mining District/JF Ranch area around the pit mine. They have mapped 14 pit mines/prospects in the area. Here are some of the sample reports.
Rogers Minerrals USGS.png
 
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markmar

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Good morning Jim

Can you find if Bud Dunn at one time of his life was married or lived in Harlan , Kentucky ?

Knows anybody the real name of " Bud " Dunn ? Was William by chance ?
 

sailaway

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Rogers Trail

For those that wonder about Rogers Mining District and the Mineralization within the Quartz Matrix running through Rogers Canyon and up the mountain away from Iron Mountain. The USGS did not sample anywhere except known mining claims that had documentation of being worked.
DSC_7047 mineral.png
Seems to me that everyone has walked right by the best. No wonder why Waltz said no one would find his gold. What is in this photo is enough to fill a full sized pickup bed. This is just one spot, there are many more like it along this vein. Can anyone Identify the initials above the prospect?
 
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PotBelly Jim

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I can't see the initials, what are they? Also, what is that mineral? Thanks, Jim
 

azdave35

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For those that wonder about Rogers Mining District and the Mineralization within the Quartz Matrix running through Rogers Canyon and up the mountain away from Iron Mountain. The USGS did not sample anywhere except known mining claims that had documentation of being worked.
View attachment 1728708
Seems to me that everyone has walked right by the best. No wonder why Waltz said no one would find his gold. What is in this photo is enough to fill a full sized pickup bed. This is just one spot, there are many more like it along this vein. Can anyone Identify the initials above the prospect?
is the green epidote or moss?
 

sailaway

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Do not know why you are seeing green even though there exists green gold, yellow gold, and red gold. have asked geologist at AZGS and have not got an answer yet.
lets try unfiltered, raw crop, other photo in sources said Chrome was adding highlights and do not know why.
DSC_7047 (3).png
 
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gollum

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Do not know why you are seeing green even though there is green gold, yellow gold, and red gold. have asked geologist at AZGS and have not got an answer yet.
lets try unfiltered, raw crop
View attachment 1729001

I am looking at this pic on a big screen 4k TV, and I see the same green Dave does. Maybe if you broke off a piece and took a better picture of it?

Mike
 

azdave35

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Do not know why you are seeing green even though there is green gold, yellow gold, and red gold. have asked geologist at AZGS and have not got an answer yet.
lets try unfiltered, raw crop
View attachment 1729001
if you had a better pic that i can blow up without distortion i could probably tell you..or bring it by if you are still in az
 

sailaway

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Guess I need to get my climbing gear on and repel down to it. Actual mineral color is bright yellow.
 
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sailaway

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Just as a guess here is what I think top 3 matches for shown mineral is:

1. Plumbogummite is a rare secondary lead phosphate mineral, belonging to the alunite supergroup of minerals, crandallitesubgroup.The basic structural units of plumbogummite are PO4 tetrahedra, with phosphorus atoms t the center and oxygen atoms at the corners, together with AlO6 octahedra, aluminium atoms (Al) at the center and oxygen atoms at the corners. The tetrahedra and octahedra combine by sharing corners, to form composite layers. Lead atoms (Pb) occupy sites between the layers.
Plumbogummite is found in the oxidized zones of lead-bearing deposits. It commonly occurs as botryoidal, kidney shaped, stalactitic or globular crusts or masses, frequently with a concentric structure; rare crystals have a hexagonal outline.

2. Pyromorphite is a mineral species composed of lead chlorophosphate: Pb5(PO4)3Cl, sometimes occurring in sufficient abundance to be mined as an ore of lead. Crystals are common, and have the form of a hexagonal prism terminated by the basal planes, sometimes combined with narrow faces of a hexagonal pyramid. Crystals with a barrel-like curvature are not uncommon. Globular and reniform masses are also found. It is part of a series with two other minerals: mimetite (Pb5(AsO4)3Cl) and vanadinite (Pb5(VO4)3Cl), the resemblance in external characters is so close that, as a rule, it is only possible to distinguish between them by chemical tests. They were formerly confused under the names green lead ore and brown lead ore (German: Grünbleierz and Braunbleierz).
The phosphate was first distinguished chemically by M. H. Klaproth in 1784, and it was named pyromorphite by J. F. L. Hausmann in 1813. The name is derived from the Greek for pyr (fire) and morfe (form) due to its crystallization behavior after being melted.

3.Adamite is a zinc arsenate hydroxide mineral, Zn2AsO4OH. It is a mineral that typically occurs in the oxidized or weathered zone above zinc ore occurrences. Pure adamite is colorless, but usually it possess yellow color due to Fe compounds admixture. Tints of green also occur and are connected with copper substitutions in the mineral structure. Olivenite is a copper arsenate that is isostructural with adamite and there is considerable substitution between zinc and copper resulting in an intermediate called cuproadamite. Zincolivenite is a recently discovered mineral being an intermediate mineral with formula CuZn(AsO4)(OH). Manganese, cobalt, and nickel also substitute in the structure. An analogous zinc phosphate, tarbuttite, is known.
 
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sailaway

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The more I study this deposit the more I wonder if Waltz did not die of radiation poisoning. Is it possible that Waltz collected some samples that were kept under his bed giving him his sickness that mirrored the Flu? Researching the mineral shown made me discover it was a indicator that Uraninite was present in the host rock. It also means the mineral shown will be metallic. Lead being the last stage of decomposition.
Two properties of uraninite are useful for locating it in the field. These are its radioactivity and its tendency to weather into yellow oxidation products, if they are oxidation products of uraninite they will usually be radioactive.
Uranite.PNG
https://geology.com/minerals/uraninite.shtml
 
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PotBelly Jim

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The more I study this deposit the more I wonder if Waltz did not die of radiation poisoning. Is it possible that Waltz collected some samples that were kept under his bed giving him his sickness that mirrored the Flu? Researching the mineral shown made me discover it was a indicator that Uraninite was present in the host rock. It also means the mineral shown will be metallic. Lead being the last stage of decomposition.

No. He had pneumonia, supposedly from the floods of FEB 1891 ;)

Radiation sickness would have had other symptoms. Perhaps they would have thought he had leprosy or bubonic plague?:laughing7:
 

gollum

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No. He had pneumonia, supposedly from the floods of FEB 1891 ;)

Radiation sickness would have had other symptoms. Perhaps they would have thought he had leprosy or bubonic plague?:laughing7:

Definitely not radiation, but maybe Palsy or a Nervous Disorder? Since he was a prospector, he likely had a lot of Mercury exposure. Also, don't forget the extremely high mercury vapor measurement taken by the USGS in 1969 along the Northern East/West Axis of the Supers.

Mike
 

somehiker

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Definitely not radiation, but maybe Palsy or a Nervous Disorder? Since he was a prospector, he likely had a lot of Mercury exposure. Also, don't forget the extremely high mercury vapor measurement taken by the USGS in 1969 along the Northern East/West Axis of the Supers.

Mike

According to the statements made, supposedly by JW himself, on which the LDM legend is based, he didn't spend much time at the mine. He also did not have to work very hard to extract the richer ore from the mine. Other mines where he had worked before perhaps, but probably not enough exposure to anything at the LDM.
 

sailaway

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radiation exposure were first recognized by Hermann Joseph Meller in 1927
https://www.news-medical.net/health/Radiation-Poisoning-History.aspx
no one can make a claim that radiation poisoning was not a factor as it was unknown at the time.
symptoms of radiation sickness:
Nausea and vomiting
Diarrhea
Headache
Fever
Dizziness and disorientation
Weakness and fatigue
Hair loss
Bloody vomit and stools from internal bleeding
Infections
Low blood pressure
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/radiation-sickness/symptoms-causes/syc-20377058

Common signs and symptoms of Influenza include:
Fever over 100.4 F (38 C)
Aching muscles.
Chills and sweats.
Headache.
Dry, persistent cough.
Fatigue and weakness.
Nasal congestion.
Sore throat.
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/flu/symptoms-causes/syc-20351719

Doctors of the 1800's would diagnosis the conditions of radiation poisoning as Influenza.
Having Uranium ore under your bed has nothing to do with time spent at a mine. Is there gold in Uranium ore? Yes! all heavy metals can be present within the ore. It is even covered in valuable mineral separation from the uranium ore body, within the book below.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK201050/
 
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