Is the Pit Mine really the Lost Dutchman mine?

PotBelly Jim

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no one can make a claim that radiation poisoning was not a factor as it was unknown at the time.

Um...I can make the claim it wasn't radiation poisoning, because both the Holmes and Julia stories are in agreement that it was pneumonia. Which WAS known at the time. However, I guess we are all free to believe whatever we wish. I suppose it could've been radiation poisoning, or heavy metal poisoning, or even lichen poisoning? ;)
 

azdave35

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no one can make a claim that radiation poisoning was not a factor as it was unknown at the time.




Doctors of the 1800's would diagnosis the conditions as Influenza.
Having Uranium ore under your bed has nothing to do with time spent at a mine. Is there gold in Uranium ore? Yes! all heavy metals can be present within the ore. It is even covered in valuable mineral separation from the uranium ore body, within the book below.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK201050/

lol...he probably died from being 80 years old...most people didn't live much older than 70 back then:icon_scratch:
 

gollum

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According to the statements made, supposedly by JW himself, on which the LDM legend is based, he didn't spend much time at the mine. He also did not have to work very hard to extract the richer ore from the mine. Other mines where he had worked before perhaps, but probably not enough exposure to anything at the LDM.

That's why I said "since he was a prospector", because not only had he worked in the California Goldfields in San Gabriel Canyon, he prospected all over the Bradshaw Mountains, evidenced by his name being on three claims in the area. Nobody knows what exactly he did between Mississippi and California. He may have just prospected his way across the country. No matter, but I would bet dollars to donuts he had a LOT of exposure to mercury over the years.

.................but he was sick and dying of Pneumonia at Julia Thomas' Place, and that same Pneumonia that killed him.

Mike
 

somehiker

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That's why I said "since he was a prospector", because not only had he worked in the California Goldfields in San Gabriel Canyon, he prospected all over the Bradshaw Mountains, evidenced by his name being on three claims in the area. Nobody knows what exactly he did between Mississippi and California. He may have just prospected his way across the country. No matter, but I would bet dollars to donuts he had a LOT of exposure to mercury over the years.

.................but he was sick and dying of Pneumonia at Julia Thomas' Place, and that same Pneumonia that killed him.

Mike

Keep your dollars Mike, because I already agree with all of that.
It was the "Also" part that I was not buying into.....re: the mercury vapor readings in the sups.

"Also, don't forget the extremely high mercury vapor measurement taken by the USGS in 1969 along the Northern East/West Axis of the Supers."
 
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gollum

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Keep your dollars Mike, because I already agree with all of that.
It was the "Also" part that I was not buying into.....re: the mercury vapor readings in the sups.

"Also, don't forget the extremely high mercury vapor measurement taken by the USGS in 1969 along the Northern East/West Axis of the Supers."

How do you mean "not buying into"? I'm not saying Waltz had it, but the survey was done and published. The conclusion for the Superstition Test was that there was either a very large source of raw mercury, or that there had been a large amount of Mining/amalgamation work done in the area tested. If a prospector had used mercury in the past, why would they/he suddenly cease to use it? He prospected in the Supers before he got his mine.

That said, there have been many misinterpretations of symptoms over the years. Just look at the Jesuit Mission at Guevavi. No Missionary Priest spent a long time there, and every one that was there seemed to come down with a sickness whose symptoms included shaking, chills, nervousness, anxiety, insomnia, nausea, general lack of energy and strength. That "sickness" sounds to me like heavy metal poisoning from refining and smelting there, that, according to history did not exist! LOL
 

somehiker

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How do you mean "not buying into"? I'm not saying Waltz had it, but the survey was done and published. The conclusion for the Superstition Test was that there was either a very large source of raw mercury, or that there had been a large amount of Mining/amalgamation work done in the area tested. If a prospector had used mercury in the past, why would they/he suddenly cease to use it? He prospected in the Supers before he got his mine.

That said, there have been many misinterpretations of symptoms over the years. Just look at the Jesuit Mission at Guevavi. No Missionary Priest spent a long time there, and every one that was there seemed to come down with a sickness whose symptoms included shaking, chills, nervousness, anxiety, insomnia, nausea, general lack of energy and strength. That "sickness" sounds to me like heavy metal poisoning from refining and smelting there, that, according to history did not exist! LOL

Meant not buying into the detection of mercury vapor in the sups as relevant to what Waltz died from. That while he may have had elevated levels of mercury in his body, accumulated throughout his career as a prospector and miner elsewhere, that he hadn't spent enough time in his LDM, to have added any to that total . I also don't recall any significant amount of mercury being found in the candlebox ore . Perhaps I was wrong about that. Your suggestion that JW may have used mercury for on-site amalgamation while prospecting in the Superstitions is interesting.

"that there had been a large amount of Mining/amalgamation work done in the area tested."
Is that conclusion in the report......or is it yours ?
 
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gollum

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Meant not buying into the detection of mercury vapor in the sups as relevant to what Waltz died from. That while he may have had elevated levels of mercury in his body, accumulated throughout his career as a prospector and miner elsewhere, that he hadn't spent enough time in his LDM, to have added any to that total . I also don't recall any significant amount of mercury being found in the candlebox ore . Perhaps I was wrong about that. Your suggestion that JW may have used mercury for on-site amalgamation while prospecting in the Superstitions is interesting.

"that there had been a large amount of Mining/amalgamation work done in the area tested."
Is that conclusion in the report......or is it yours ?

A detailed description of the actual test (as well as flight paths) are in Tom Glover's first book. He spoke with Dr. McCarthy (the scientist who headed the survey). They flew over several known mineral producing and known mining areas. They flew two routes in the Superstitions:

1. Apache Trail South to North. This was over several known Cinnabar Deposits and old Cinnabar Mines.

2. Down the North End, East to West along LaBarge Canyon.

The largest concentrations of mercury vapors were along route# 2.

USGS609a.JPG
USGS609b.JPG

".......showed that the areas of the highest concentrations of Mercury coincided with the known mineralized areas of the Ivanhoe Mining District, Nevada."

"Higher concentrations of Mercury are found in air over base and precious metal ore deposits than in air over unmineralized bedrock."

If you look at the areas they tested, you will see places massively mined and the sites of several mineral processing plants. Even with that, the area in the Superstitions along LaBarge Canyon had higher MINIMUM mercury vapor readings than the MAXIMUM readings from ANY OTHER TESTED AREA.

So to boil the fat down to gravy LaBarge Canyon Area has WAAAAAAAY higher Mercury Vapor Content than many massively mined areas that also had processing plants. That would logically lead me to one of three conclusions:

1. The area along the LaBarge Corridor is massively mineralized (contrary to what every geologist says). Which means a far greater chance of finding a lot of gold/silver.

2. Large scale amalgamation processing using Mercury in that area.

3. Some combination of both.

Geology and History say none of those three conclusions could be correct...........but here we have a government sponsored, scientifically conducted survey that says different!

If you want, I can email a .pdf of the entire survey.

Mike

PS,

Here are some posts from me on Feldman'S Old LDM Forum (can't link to it sorry),

[FONT=&quot]Now to throw a little gasoline on this fire:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]A friend in the business just emailed me regarding this subject. He is more on the research side than the mining side. He told me that since Mercury comes in seven different isotopic forms (Hg196, Hg198, Hg199, Hg200, Hg201, Hg202, and Hg204). Different isotopes found while analyzing the samples could mean different things (some of the isotopes could mean gold, some could mean silver, and some could mean mercury). He will check into it for me.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]It just gets better and better. What he did tell me for an absolute fact is that mercury vapor testing is (and has been for a long time) used to find valuable precious metal deposits by the mining industry. That is not a fact in question.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Best-Mike[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]This is an answer to my question:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"Hg vapor sampling has been utilized to indicate the presence of precious metal deposits. Typically, mercury occurs above Au and Ag deposits but may, also, be localized or anomalous within the precious metal concentrations. Some areas don’t have precious metal deposits where mercury occurs. There are numerous examples in CA adjacent to old mercury mines. The McLaughlin mine (Homestake Mining Company) was discovered beneath an old mercury mine; however, the mercury occurrences on the Livermore ranch out of Napa valley have no known gold deposits. Thus, the presence of anomalous mercury (particularly on low-atmospheric pressure days) simply indicates that you have unusual Hg that may have other metals at depth."[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]That was from the Dept. Head of a prestigious School of Mines. What he said was that more often than not, the presence of larger than background mercury vapor levels indicate precious metal deposits, and occasionally it just indicates mercury. He wouldn't put a percentage on it. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Best-Mike[/FONT]

Hope this helps.

Mike
 
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somehiker

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A detailed description of the actual test (as well as flight paths) are in Tom Glover's first book. He spoke with Dr. McCarthy (the scientist who headed the survey). They flew over several known mineral producing and known mining areas. They flew two routes in the Superstitions:

1. Apache Trail South to North. This was over several known Cinnabar Deposits and old Cinnabar Mines.

2. Down the North End, East to West along LaBarge Canyon.

The largest concentrations of mercury vapors were along route# 2.

View attachment 1729895
View attachment 1729897

".......showed that the areas of the highest concentrations of Mercury coincided with the known mineralized areas of the Ivanhoe Mining District, Nevada."

"Higher concentrations of Mercury are found in air over base and precious metal ore deposits than in air over unmineralized bedrock."

If you look at the areas they tested, you will see places massively mined and the sites of several mineral processing plants. Even with that, the area in the Superstitions along LaBarge Canyon had higher MINIMUM mercury vapor readings than the MAXIMUM readings from ANY OTHER TESTED AREA.

So to boil the fat down to gravy LaBarge Canyon Area has WAAAAAAAY higher Mercury Vapor Content than many massively mined areas that also had processing plants. That would logically lead me to one of three conclusions:

1. The area along the LaBarge Corridor is massively mineralized (contrary to what every geologist says). Which means a far greater chance of finding a lot of gold/silver.

2. Large scale amalgamation processing using Mercury in that area.

3. Some combination of both.

Geology and History say none of those three conclusions could be correct...........but here we have a government sponsored, scientifically conducted survey that says different!

If you want, I can email a .pdf of the entire survey.

Mike

PS,

Here are some posts from me on Feldman'S Old LDM Forum (can't link to it sorry),





Hope this helps.

Mike

Thanks.
I already have the report on file.
It is also available here.......

https://pubs.usgs.gov/circ/1969/0609/report.pdf
 
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gollum

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Real of Tayopa

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Gollum,

they had the habit of licking a sample to help identify if, it could be that he picked the wrong sample to lick ? Then again the mercury idea is fine, except that in wwll I was a bombsight specialist. Because of the secrecy when we were fortunate enough to have a Quanset hut it was without windows. We used mercury as a self leveling mirror to establish a true vertigle. Not knowing better, we also shot down flying insects with hypoderics ful of Mercury we also used it for other things, in otherwe were in a saturated mercury condition.. It depends upon the type of Mercury. II am now 95so go figure. Personally I think that Mercury is overplayed, it depends on it's state. I'm sure that you played with it as a kiddie. In fact it was used in severe cases of constipation,the idea was to drink it and to so force out a stoppage ugh
 
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azdave35

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Gollum,

they had the habit of licking a sample to help identify if, it could be that he picked the wrong sample to lick ?
jose...i see alot of idiots in the lapidary business licking turquoise and chrysocolla ..they claim that's how to tell the difference between the two....both rocks have varying amounts of arsenic ,lead , mercury, cadmium and a host of other nasty's in them...no wonder miners are all crazy lol
 

gollum

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jose...i see alot of idiots in the lapidary business licking turquoise and chrysocolla ..they claim that's how to tell the difference between the two....both rocks have varying amounts of arsenic ,lead , mercury, cadmium and a host of other nasty's in them...no wonder miners are all crazy lol


Yep. They have even identified most coal as having varying amounts of mercury. Imagine a coal fired oven in your home for two or three generations?

Mike
 

somehiker

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Then again, since some seem to think there must be some cause for Waltz's illness and death, other than pneumonia, maybe JW died of arsenic poisoning, which was also a life threatening hazard to gold miners.
Since Julia assumed the candlebox of rich gold ore would belong to her after Jake died, perhaps she even helped him along, with a little extra something in his morning coffee ?
What do y'all think ?
 

somehiker

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jose...i see alot of idiots in the lapidary business licking turquoise and chrysocolla ..they claim that's how to tell the difference between the two....both rocks have varying amounts of arsenic ,lead , mercury, cadmium and a host of other nasty's in them...no wonder miners are all crazy lol

A lot of that stuff can also be absorbed through the skin as well.
So I wonder what the effects of wearing turquoise jewelry long term might be ?
Not to mention pottery with inlays of turquoise .
 

azdave35

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A lot of that stuff can also be absorbed through the skin as well.
So I wonder what the effects of wearing turquoise jewelry long term might be ?
Not to mention pottery with inlays of turquoise .
wayne......that's why most people insist on silver for jewelry...its totally non toxic and is a natural antibiotic ...
 

cyzak

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Yep. They have even identified most coal as having varying amounts of mercury. Imagine a coal fired oven in your home for two or three generations?

Mike

Oh wow I just figured out what happened to the family coal is what we used to heat the home with for years and years but I think I am ok I am ok I am ok I think.
 

Cubfan64

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Forgive me for reviving an old thread, but the Pit Mine discussion seems to have started up again on another thread and I wanted to follow up with some comments/questions.

Dave - I know you believe the "Silver Chief" pit mine is/was Waltz's source of gold and I know you have good reasons to believe that. I want to try to come up with some scenarios that would work for this to have been Waltz’s source of gold and get people’s thoughts.

First of all I'm going to make an assumptions which may or may not be correct, but my scenario’s are based around this assumption - the "Pit Mine" as we've come to know it and the Silver Chief Mine are one in the same.

So based on that, it's been documented as Matthew stated that the Silver Chief mine was "discovered" in 1875 and was NOT developed in any way at the time of discovery. If that location is/was the source of Waltz's gold, Waltz did not have any gold from there before 1875, UNLESS he somehow dug into that source from a location nearby undetected by the folks who made the claim.

The folks who discovered the Silver Chief clearly did work on it - for how long it was worked, the extent (was someone there every day for months on end, etc...) and whether any rich pockets of gold came out of it I don't know, but as I said it was clearly dug out extensively - I've seen the original photos taken from inside and I assume most of that had been done in the 1800’s.

I would think it reasonable to assume that as soon as a rich pocket of gold is discovered, it is essentially "cleaned out" as quickly and efficiently as possible right? If the folks legally working the claim came upon gold ore as rich as Waltz's, I can't imagine them leaving to come back at a later time to recover it. So if this was indeed the location of Waltz's source of gold, he either had the balls to go inside and "discover" the gold pocket himself when nobody else was out there working it or even in the neighborhood working any of the other mines along that ridge, or he had some hidden prospect on that same claim that just happened to have hit a rich gold pocket that nobody else had come across yet from within the main diggings.

If we take the first scenario that Waltz had the balls to go into the mine and just happened to come across a rich pocket of gold that hadn't been discovered yet by the owners, he had to take out as much as he could that first time because as soon as the owners came back to do more work they would undoubtedly discover someone had been in there and they would absolutely clean out any remaining gold which means there should have been no more gold left for anyone to discover at a later time. That scenario doesn’t seem to work if the gold ore you tested had been dug out of that mine — it shouldn’t have been there anymore.

If we take the second scenario where he has a prospect hole dug into someone else's claim and he just happened to have hit that rich pocket of gold that was as of yet still uncovered within the main claim we have a legitimate scenario (at least in my mind) that might work. It would explain why he probably only took gold from his source a few times and cached some of it - because it would have been extremely risky for him to go back each time. Maybe the owners of the claim came close to uncovering the rich vein/pocket, but stopped just short of hitting it and gave up. Did the folks who “rediscovered” the mine just clear it back out and happen to hit that pocket while investigating? Did they discover where someone (Waltz?) had dug into the side of the main mine and just “connected” the prospect with the main mine which led them to discover and clean out the rich pocket of gold?
Lots of questions, I know but it might be interesting to dig into this again (no pun intended).
 
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azdave35

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Forgive me for reviving an old thread, but the Pit Mine discussion seems to have started up again on another thread and I wanted to follow up with some comments/questions.

Dave - I know you believe the "Silver Chief" pit mine is/was Waltz's source of gold and I know you have good reasons to believe that. I want to try to come up with some scenarios that would work for this to have been Waltz’s source of gold and get people’s thoughts.

First of all I'm going to make an assumptions which may or may not be correct, but my scenario’s are based around this assumption - the "Pit Mine" as we've come to know it and the Silver Chief Mine are one in the same.

So based on that, it's been documented as Matthew stated that the Silver Chief mine was "discovered" in 1875 and was NOT developed in any way at the time of discovery. If that location is/was the source of Waltz's gold, Waltz did not have any gold from there before 1875, UNLESS he somehow dug into that source from a location nearby undetected by the folks who made the claim.

The folks who discovered the Silver Chief clearly did work on it - for how long it was worked, the extent (was someone there every day for months on end, etc...) and whether any rich pockets of gold came out of it I don't know, but as I said it was clearly dug out extensively - I've seen the original photos taken from inside and I assume most of that had been done in the 1800’s.

I would think it reasonable to assume that as soon as a rich pocket of gold is discovered, it is essentially "cleaned out" as quickly and efficiently as possible right? If the folks legally working the claim came upon gold ore as rich as Waltz's, I can't imagine them leaving to come back at a later time to recover it. So if this was indeed the location of Waltz's source of gold, he either had the balls to go inside and "discover" the gold pocket himself when nobody else was out there working it or even in the neighborhood working any of the other mines along that ridge, or he had some hidden prospect on that same claim that just happened to have hit a rich gold pocket that nobody else had come across yet from within the main diggings.

If we take the first scenario that Waltz had the balls to go into the mine and just happened to come across a rich pocket of gold that hadn't been discovered yet by the owners, he had to take out as much as he could that first time because as soon as the owners came back to do more work they would undoubtedly discover someone had been in there and they would absolutely clean out any remaining gold which means there should have been no more gold left for anyone to discover at a later time. That scenario doesn’t seem to work if the gold ore you tested had been dug out of that mine — it shouldn’t have been there anymore.

If we take the second scenario where he has a prospect hole dug into someone else's claim and he just happened to have hit that rich pocket of gold that was as of yet still uncovered within the main claim we have a legitimate scenario (at least in my mind) that might work. It would explain why he probably only took gold from his source a few times and cached some of it - because it would have been extremely risky for him to go back each time. Maybe the owners of the claim came close to uncovering the rich vein/pocket, but stopped just short of hitting it and gave up. Did the folks who “rediscovered” the mine just clear it back out and happen to hit that pocket while investigating? Did they discover where someone (Waltz?) had dug into the side of the main mine and just “connected” the prospect with the main mine which led them to discover and clean out the rich pocket of gold?
Lots of questions, I know but it might be interesting to dig into this again (no pun intended).
howdy paul...i'm not 100% positive the pit mine was the ldm...i just like to screw with folks on here...its just entertainment for me....ron makes a good argument on the type of quartz the different ores have....kochera ore...silver chief and the matchbox ore is mesothermal....all the quartz ore on the west side of the supers is epithermal.....main difference between the two is epithermal are usually surface deposits and mesothermal are deeper deposits....i know everyone will tell you there is no gold in volcanics but i have seen rich pockets of gold in dacite..basalt..tuff ect but they were rich surface pockets that pinched out ...there was an illegal dig south of tortilla flat (im sure you have heard about it)..if not pm me and i'll give you coords....i was at the site 12 or so years ago and someone had sunk a shaft 12 or 15 ft deep...then a short tunnel at the bottom...when they were done they left their tools..generator...drill..jackhammer..ect..my guess is they got a very rich pocket that pinched out.....i also saw where they had drilled into some quartz stringers but stopped....i took some of that quartz from the stringers and assayed it..it ran 4 opt....and the entire country was dacite and tuff...so much for gold not being in volcanics...my point is that there is definitely gold on the west and middle part of the supers...i have seen quite a few specimens from that area..but they were all epithermal quartz..same with the goldfield area...all epithermal.....the pit ore..kochera ore and matchbox ore are all mesothermal quartz...does this prove the pit mine is the ldm?...no...but it is a good argument that it is....all of the quartz ore i have seen from the middle and west end of the supers are epithermal....could their be mesothermal quartz in the middle and west part?...i doubt it because it is all volcanics ...i could be wrong but i'm just going by what i have seen...something to chew on for a while...also i mentioned that waltz could have been high grading from the silver chief...matthew says there are perfect records of the progress and output of the mine..i hate to blow that theory out of the water but nobdy records everything they do at a gold mine...all they record is what they want the feds to know......if they are mining silver and hit a rich gold pocket ..they aren't going to report it...public records are nice but they only show what the owner felt comfortable writing on paper...believe me...idiots steal ore from claims on a daily basis....i dug out 500 lbs of good ore on one of my claims and set it off to the side...i thought it would be safe there for a couple weeks....i was wrong...when i came back to work it...it was no longer there...and that isn't the first time that happened...if waltz or anyone else for that matter want to sneak down a mine and high grade it wouldn't be that much of a problem....my theory is he snuck in a time or two and got out what he could but couldn't get more because they started guarding it...legend says waltz was only at that mine a few times....if he really had a rich mine out there he wouldn't just stop mining it...unless he was stealing...just my thoughts on it
 

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