Is There Any Evidence that the Lost Dutchman Mine really exists?

Nov 8, 2004
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A few words on 'De Re Metalica', it was about normal mining methods, but on the frontier it was a different matter.

Scarcity of mining materiel, tools, hostile native populatioins was the name of the game. so you improvised, and that they did. Safety no longer became an issue.

Surprisingly their method of fire assaying hasn't changed much, nor many of their other methods.

When I was assaying, I became known as the cow catcher, I was always looking for dead cattle for their bones to make cuppels.
 
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KXMember

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Dec 19, 2014
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A few words on 'De Re Metalica', it was about normal mining methods, but on the frontier it was a different matter.

Scarcity of mining materiel, tools, hostile native populatioins was the name of the game. so you improvised, and that they did. Safety no longer became an issue.

Surprisingly their method of fire assaying hasn't changed much, nor many of their other methods.

When I was assaying, I became known as the cow catcher, I was always looking for dead cattle for their bones to make cuppels.

I've seen very advanced methods all over NM. They always made it work and could haul materials and make metals out of local materials all over the place.
 

deducer

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Jan 7, 2014
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You must not have much of a life, being you try your hardest to pull at peoples strings. One of my best friends name is Rey...any wise words?

Not trying at all. You make it too easy.
 

ibjeepn

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May 27, 2012
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Takes a little time to reload a cap and ball revolver.
Trust me on this.

I agree Roadrunner. Lol

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roadrunner

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Jan 28, 2012
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I only have a 1851 Navy Colt right now.
With the square back trigger guard.
Might acquire a replica, 1860 .44.

IMG_0649.JPG

When you use some of the same tools from our settlers ect from the 1800s, you learn to respect what they did and had to go through to survive.
Imagine trying to reload or have your wife and kids reloading one of these in an attack from anybody.
Nice collection ibjeepin.
1858 Rem was known for the fact a calvary man could change the cylinder while riding.
 
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hooch

Banned
Aug 4, 2008
209
181
Ahwatukee
A few words on 'De Re Metalica', it was about normal mining methods, but on the frontier it was a different matter.

Scarcity of mining materiel, tools, hostile native populatioins was the name of the game. so you improvised, and that they did. Safety no longer became an issue.

Surprisingly their method of fire assaying hasn't changed much, nor many of their other methods.

When I was assaying, I became known as the cow catcher, I was always looking for dead cattle for their bones to make cuppels.


Hey what hat do you know about limestone rock removal? When they would dig the shaft by drilling a sequence of holes at an angle and then pour a limestone mixture/cement type **** down the holes, and when it dried it would expand, kinda cracking the rock so the ore could be removed? You ever hear of this don? Some old dude was telling me about this on the res, said some of the spaniards/Mexicans dug their holes like that. Never heard of that before
 
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azdave35

Silver Member
Dec 19, 2008
3,606
8,089
Hey what hat do you know about limestone rock removal? When they would dig the shaft by drilling a sequence of holes at an angle and then pour a limestone mixture/cement type **** down the holes, and when it dried it would expand, kinda cracking the rock so the ore could be removed? You ever hear of this don? Some old dude was telling me about this on the res, said some of the spaniards/Mexicans dug their holes like that. Never heard of that before

we still use this technique ...works great on dense rock
 

timemachine

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I've always felt the existence of the mine was actually true. But, not based on any sort of study. As it also lends a bit of credence to the story, what always peaked my interest was the number of deaths and disappearances:

The Lost Dutchman Death Roll | The Life of Adventure

What follows is a comprehensive list of the carnage associated with the search for the Lost Dutchman’s Gold Mine:

1880 – Two soldiers, recently discharged from Fort McDowell, showed up in Pinal, Arizona looking for work at the Silver King Mine. When they showed a bag of gold ore to the Silver King Manager, Aaron Mason, the manager was stunned to see how rich the ore was and immediately began to ask where they had found it.

The soldiers replied that the ore had been picked up while crossing Superstition Mountain, where they had also spied an old mine. Mason bought the ore from the men, outfitted them and entered a partnership with the pair to share in the profits. The two, sure that they could find the place, then headed towards Weaver’s Needle, but after two weeks had not returned. Mason sent out a search party, who found the nude bodies of both men, shot in the head.

1881 – A prospector by the name of Joe Dearing, who was working as a part-time bartender in Pinal, heard the stories of the two dead soldiers and began to look for the lost mine. He soon returned to Pinal, saying that he had found an old mine, describing it as “the most God-awful rough place you can imagine… a ghostly place.” Dearing continued to work as a bartender until he could save enough money for the excavation. To make even more money, he then went to work at the Silver King Mine. Just a week later he was killed in a cave-in without ever disclosing the location to anyone.

1896 – A prospector named Elisha Marcus Reavis, who was better known in the area as the “Madman of the Superstitions” or the “Old Hermit” because he never shaved or cut his hair; he seldom bathed and rumors said he was prone to running naked through the canyons, firing a pistol into the sky. Sure that he was “mad,” even the Apache left him alone. When Reavis hadn’t been seen in some time, one of his few friends went to check on him. The nearly 70 year-old man was found dead about four miles south of his home on a trail near Roger’s Canyon. His head had been severed from his body and was lying several feet away.

1896 – Later that year, two easterners went looking for the lost mine. They were never seen again.

* 1910 – The skeleton of a woman was found in a cave high up on Superstition Mountain. With the body were several gold nuggets. The coroner could tell that the woman’s death was recent, but the gold was never explained.

1927 – A New Jersey man and his sons were hiking the mountain when rocks began to roll down on them from the cliffs above, as if someone had pushed the boulders. One of the boys’ legs was crushed. Just a year later, two dear hunters were driven off the mountain, when again rolling boulders appeared to have been pushed by someone or “something” down the mountain towards them.

1931 – Yet another event added to the legends of Superstition Mountain when Adolph Ruth, a Washington D.C. veterinarian and avid treasure hunting hobbyist went missing in a wilderness area of the peak.

In his search, Ruth utilized a map that his son had obtained in Mexico several years previous, which dated back to the period of the Mexican Revolution (1909-1923), and was later referred to as the Ruth-Peralta map. Ruth was searching for lost Peralta Mines, especially that of the Lost Dutchman. Arriving in the area in May, Ruth convinced two local cowboys to pack him into the mountains, where they left him to his exploring at a place called Willow Springs in West Boulder Canyon around June 14th, 1931.

When nothing had been heard of Ruth for six days, the cowboys’ boss, a man named Tex Barkley, went looking for the treasure hunter. Upon arriving at Ruth’s camp, the rancher could tell that no one had been there in at least a day and reported Ruth missing. A reward was immediately offered by the family and searchers combed the mountain for the next 45 days but Ruth was not found.

Some months later, in December, however; a skull with two holes in it was discovered near the three Red Hills by an archaeological expedition. I turned out to be that of Adolph Ruth. The rest of the treasure hunter’s body would not be found until the next month, in a small tributary on the east slope of Black Top Mesa. Ruth’s treasure map was found at his original campsite.

The headlines were sensational – alleging that Ruth had been murdered for his map. However, the original coroner said that he could not be positive the skull had bullet holes in it. However, Adoph’s son, Erwin, was convinced his father had been killed. Though the coroner acceded that foul play “might” have been involved, the original statement was never changed.

Some believed that Ruth may have died not from foul play, but from the extreme desert heat, and then his body was carried away in parts by wild animals.

1934 – The Superstitions claimed the life of Adam Stewart, cause of death unknown.

1936 – Another life was claimed by the mountain when another hobbyist, Roman O’Hal, a broker from New York, died from a fall when he was searching for the Lost Dutchman.

1937 – An old prospector by the name of Guy “Hematite” Frink was lucky enough to return from the mountain with a number of rich gold samples. In November, he was found shot in the stomach on the side of a trail in or near La Barge Canyon. Next to his decomposing body was a small sack of gold ore.

1938 – A man named Jenkins, along with his wife and two children were having a picnic on the mountain. During their outing Jenkins found a heavy quartz rock that he later learned was heavily laden with gold. However, before he could return to the spot, he had a heart attack. His wife could not remember the location of the find.

In 1945 – A book about the Lost Dutchman Mine was written by Barry Storm, who claimed to have narrowly escaped from a mysterious sniper. Storm speculated that Adolph Ruth might have been a victim of the same sniper.

1947 – A prospector name James A. Cravey made a much-publicized trip into the Superstition canyons by helicopter, searching for the Lost Dutchman Mine. The pilot set him down in La Barge Canyon, close to Weaver’s Needle. When Cravey failed to hike out as planned, a search was started and although his camp was found, Cravey was not.

The following February, his headless skeleton was found in a canyon, a good distance from his camp. It was tied in a blanket and his skull was found about thirty feet away. The coroner’s jury ruled that there was “no evidence of foul play.”

1949 – A man named James Kidd disappeared in the Superstitions.

* 1951 – Dr. John Burns, a physician from Oregon, was found shot to death on Superstition Mountain. The “official” ruling was that the death was accidental.

1952 – A man named Joseph Kelley of Dayton, Ohio was also searching for the lost mine. He vanished and was never seen again. His skeleton was discovered near Weaver’s Needle two years later. The shot in his skull was ruled an accidental shooting incident.

1953 – Two California boys, who were hiking on Superstition Mountain, also vanished. Unfortunately, for these two, nothing was every found of them.

1955 – Charles Massey, who was hunting with a 22, was found shot between the eyes by a heavy-caliber rifle bullet. The coroner ruled it an accidental death resulting from a ricochet.

1956 – A man from Brooklyn, New York reported to police that his brother, Martin Zywotho, who he believed was searching for the Lost Dutchman Mine, had been missing for several weeks. A month later, the missing man’s body was found with a bullet hole above his right temple. Although his gun was found under the body, the death was ruled suicide.

1958 – A deserted campsite was discovered on the northern edge of the mountain. At the campsite were a bloodstained blanket, a Geiger counter, a gun-cleaning kit, but no gun, cooking utensils, and some letters, from which the names and addresses had been torn from. No trace of the camp’s occupant was ever found.

1959 – Two men by the names of Stanley Hernandez and Benjamin Ferreira, thought they had found the “jack-pot.” However, what they actually discovered was pyrite, more often called “Fool’s Gold.” But, these two were sure they had found the elusive mine. Whether out of greed or, some kind of dispute over how they would handle their new found wealth, Hernandez killed his friend Ferreira.

1960 – Robert St. Marie, who was attempted to drill a hole all the way through Weaver’s Needle, was killed by prospector Edward Piper. Two months later, Piper was found dead. The cause of death was said to have been a “perforated ulcer.”

1960 – Two more men who were hiking in the Superstitions that year became involved in some kind of dispute. Lavern Rowlee was shot by Ralph Thomas, who reported that he had been attacked by Rowlee and shot the other man in self-defense.

1960 – A group of hikers found a headless skeleton near the foot of a cliff on Superstition Mountain. Four days later, an investigation determined it belonged to an Austrian student named Franz Harrier.

1960 – Five days later, another skeleton was found, which was identified the next month to be that of William Richard Harvey, a painter from San Francisco. The cause of death was unknown.

1961 – A family picnicking near the edge of the mountain discovered the body of Hilmer Charles Bohen buried beneath the sand. Bohen was a Utah prospector who had been shot in the back.

1961 – Two months later, another prospector from Denver named Walter J. Mowry was found in Needle Canyon. His bullet-ridden body was removed to the coroner’s, who ruled it a suicide.

1961 – Five days later, another skeleton was found, which was later identified as William Richard Harvey, a painter from San Francisco. The cause of death was undetermined.

1961 – Police began searching for a prospector by the name of Jay Clapp, who had been working on Superstition Mountain on and off for a decade and a half. Clapp had been missing since July. After a thorough search, the hunt was called off. Three years later his headless skeleton was finally discovered.

1963 – A man named Vance Bacon, also working to tunnel through Weaver’s Needle, fell to his death. Allegedly, there were rifle shots and indications of foul play.

1964 – Brothers, Richard and Robert Kremis, were found dead at the bottom of a high cliff.

1964 – An elderly couple was found murdered in an automobile.

1970 – A seasoned prospector named Al Morrow was killed by a boulder that fell into a tunnel that he was digging.

1973 – Charles Lewing shot Ladislas Guerrero at a mountain campsite. Lewing claimed self-defense.

1976 – A prospector named Howard Polling was found dead of a gunshot wound. The following year another man named Dennis Brown, was also found dead of a gunshot wound.

1978 – A man named Manuel Valdez was murdered in the Superstitions.

1980 – The skeleton of a man named Rick Fenning was found.

1984 – A prospector named Walt Gassler, who had been searching for the Lost Dutchman for most of his life, was found dead in the Superstitions. In his pack was gold ore, later discovered to be identical to that of the rich ore Jacob Waltz had found earlier.

Thanks for the cold dead facts!
 

RockyGoltra

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Nov 6, 2022
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View attachment 1169635

Hal,

The Charlie Williams story is another of the Superstition Mountains lost cave stories.
Williams was a WWI veteran who was disabled and spent a lot of his time prospecting the Superstitions in the mid 1930's.
He disappeared on January 4, 1935 and Maricopa County Sheriff MacFadden searched for him for four days without any results and gave him up for dead.
Williams staggered into another prospectors camp half dazed a few days later with a head injury and a pocket full of gold nuggets.
The story he gave is basically as follows: He became tired and disoriented while hiking in the mountains and seeing a cave entrance nearby a pointed peak he made his way for the cave and collapsed inside. When he awoke he saw the cave floor was scattered with gold nuggets some the size of walnuts. He scooped some up and put them in his pocket but leaving the dark cave hit his head on the roof or overhang and knocked himself unconscious.
Dazed, he wandered around for two days when he stumbled into the camp of a prospector about eight miles northeast of Apache Junction.
In his pockets were the gold nuggets. When Williams tried to remember where he was he could not relocate the cave entrance.
In a sad twist to the story the US Government confiscated Williams gold nuggets because in 1935 it was illegal for a private person to possess gold.
A story circulated that the government said the nuggets were dental gold. That may have been the case but also may have been the government saying they were dental gold so they would not have had to return the gold to Williams so he could have sold it.
The Government never proved where Williams got the alleged dental gold nor could they produce a dentist or a partner Williams was supposed to be working with.
Williams was fined somewhere between $4,000 and $5,000 dollars by the Government which also was a good reason for the Government to claim he had dental gold.
Williams was always known as an honest and upstanding man before his experience with the cave and the gold nuggets, the Governments allegations against him were out of character for him not to mention unprovable in a court of law.

Matthew
dental gold means 18k+ it doesnt mean that it came from teeth. There is also another story of charlie williams finding gold with his partner halberg( i believe)--and it was one year later from the first discovery. i speculate that he didnt forget where the location was... I would say that too... wouldnt you?
 

markmar

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What is shown in this video it's an adit/tunnel. Waltz mines are little different. One, which was a Peraltas mine, it's an inclined shaft which goes down about 40 feet and then tuns to a horizontaly tunnel for about 6 feet. The second mine, which was opened by Waltz, goes few feet down and has a round entrance at the size of a barrel.
 

releventchair

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What is shown in this video it's an adit/tunnel. Waltz mines are little different. One, which was a Peraltas mine, it's an inclined shaft which goes down about 40 feet and then tuns to a horizontaly tunnel for about 6 feet. The second mine, which was opened by Waltz, goes few feet down and has a round entrance at the size of a barrel.
Greetings Markmar.
Could Waltz open a mine within a mine? Through the floor?
(He wouldn't unless there was a reason to. Maybe a coyote type check turned up enough decent ore to continue.)
A played out mine and his gathering the last remnants could explain multiple small caches away from it. It wasn't played out from earlier description , so was it being mined when he wasn't there at times? That hints of his not wanting to be seen there during "season". Avoiding it while in use.

I like the video for varied reasons. That is not me saying this is it / the Dutchman.

The "peek a boo" aspect hiding the entrance is in part due to the choice of filming position. But terrain caused too. A good demonstration of how such an entrance can not be spotted easy. An approach from the opposite direction, and perhaps the sides would reveal little . Even from a close distance. Not a deliberate let's dig here because it's hidden , but rather happenstance that made for a secluded entrance.

A single man is vulnerable working there if anyone would surprise him. While the entrance (depending on ones position beyond) is not easy to spot. Who knew about the mine before he did? Did anyone ever see him coming or going? Someone willing to work the mine wouldn't run and tell the newspaper. So we shouldn't know. I wouldn't want anyone with ill intent waiting for me to leave that mine. But hidden it is depending on ones perspective.

IF he (or anyone) dug below the prior floor , why didn't prior miners after the vein played out beyond the quartz?

The higher ground is a vantage to observe anyone outside the entrance a ways. Fits one clue.
IF the narrators claim of reluctance to pan out is due to recognizable landmarks or terrain , the site could fit more clues than let on when it's stated he just doesn't want the site molested.
(Either is fine by me. I just like seeing the site from my chair here in the cold.)
 

Grizz12

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If he doesn't want to see the area molested than he should buy it, other than that he has no say in who does what
 

markmar

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Releventchair
I send you a PM with the LDM site in regards to understand the morphology of the region.
 

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