Jesuit Treasure - Putting It All Together

[Oroblanco]

Concept, you must remember that Spaninh coinage was almost a universal monetary unit used almost all over the world, not just restricted the colonies for their personal use.

Correct again amigo, in fact Spanish dollars were legal US tender until 1840s if memory serves.

Putting it all together, the topic matter here is quite a task. Just keep in mind that all of the missions and not just the Jesuits, were a commercial enterprise, including every possible means they could think of to produce income. The missions were intended to become self-supporting and not require constant financing from the Church or state. Hence they were dabbling in cattle ranching, sheep raising, grain farming, sugar mills, mining, salt mining, fishing, and in the north country, trapping and trading for furs, the list goes on and on. The proceeds of these enterprises were supposed to flow to the Jesuit base in Rome, yet only a portion of the profits ever reached there. Much was also hidden in foreign banks, in the Netherlands, Belgium etc.

Also I would point out that we have two written records from Jesuit padres telling of when they were forced to hide the "treasures of the Church" and in both cases, these valuables were stashed in CAVES. Just something to consider.

Please do continue:

 

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[Azquester]

Correct again amigo, in fact Spanish dollars were legal US tender until 1840s if memory serves.

Putting it all together, the topic matter here is quite a task. Just keep in mind that all of the missions and not just the Jesuits, were a commercial enterprise, including every possible means they could think of to produce income. The missions were intended to become self-supporting and not require constant financing from the Church or state. Hence they were dabbling in cattle ranching, sheep raising, grain farming, sugar mills, mining, salt mining, fishing, and in the north country, trapping and trading for furs, the list goes on and on. The proceeds of these enterprises were supposed to flow to the Jesuit base in Rome, yet only a portion of the profits ever reached there. Much was also hidden in foreign banks, in the Netherlands, Belgium etc.

Also I would point out that we have two written records from Jesuit padres telling of when they were forced to hide the "treasures of the Church" and in both cases, these valuables were stashed in CAVES. Just something to consider.

Please do continue:

Caves? What Caves?

 

[marticus]

Correct again amigo, in fact Spanish dollars were legal US tender until 1840s if memory serves.

Putting it all together, the topic matter here is quite a task. Just keep in mind that all of the missions and not just the Jesuits, were a commercial enterprise, including every possible means they could think of to produce income. The missions were intended to become self-supporting and not require constant financing from the Church or state. Hence they were dabbling in cattle ranching, sheep raising, grain farming, sugar mills, mining, salt mining, fishing, and in the north country, trapping and trading for furs, the list goes on and on. The proceeds of these enterprises were supposed to flow to the Jesuit base in Rome, yet only a portion of the profits ever reached there. Much was also hidden in foreign banks, in the Netherlands, Belgium etc.

Also I would point out that we have two written records from Jesuit padres telling of when they were forced to hide the "treasures of the Church" and in both cases, these valuables were stashed in CAVES. Just something to consider.

Please do continue:

Would make sense. Caves are a perfect natural hiding place. A fake rock wall or cover then in earth. Just as good as any vault. Just like a safe right out in the open

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[Oroblanco]

Caves? What Caves?

Father Kino hid the 'church treasures' in a cave near his mission in Sonora, can't recall the name of which mission at the moment <Remedios?> but it is mentioned in his own book on Pimeria, and in the other instance a Jesuit padre <Keller?> hid the 'church treasures' and a couple of people in a cave near Tubac. If I knew which caves exactly, and where they are, I would likely be there right now. Keller's letter is among the documents in the Mission2000 database, if memory serves. Both incidents occurred during revolts of the Pimas.

 

[TallTx]

I Recall seeing this symbol (see attached photo), I believe as I was researching Jesuit signs and symbols. Saved as links and think site is no longer up on internet. Symbol is at top of cave near superstitions inside entrance where it splits in two different directions.
Anyone familiar with this symbol?

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Tex, I'm afraid that it is mom nature at work again, that is not man made.

 

[cactusjumper]

Father Kino hid the 'church treasures' in a cave near his mission in Sonora, can't recall the name of which mission at the moment <Remedios?> but it is mentioned in his own book on Pimeria, and in the other instance a Jesuit padre <Keller?> hid the 'church treasures' and a couple of people in a cave near Tubac. If I knew which caves exactly, and where they are, I would likely be there right now. Keller's letter is among the documents in the Mission2000 database, if memory serves. Both incidents occurred during revolts of the Pimas.

Roy,

You are correct about the Jesuits hiding the church treasures when they felt they were in danger. Herbert Eugene Bolton wrote:

"At Dolores Father Kino, Lieutenant Manje, and three citizens of Bacanuche awaited the onslaught. An Indian who had been stationed on the mountains, seeing the smoke at San Ignacio, fled to Dolores with the news that Father Campos and all the soldiers had been killed. Manje sped to Opodepe to get aid; the three citizens hurried home to Bacanuche, and Kino was left alone. When Manje returned next day, together they hid the treasures of the church in a cave, but in spite of the soldier's entreaties that they should flee, Kino insisted on returning to the mission to await death, which they did. It is indicative of the modesty of this great soul that in his autobiography this incident in his life is passed over in complete silence. But Manje, who was weak or wise enough to wish to flee, was also generous and brave enough to record the padre's heroism and his own fears."

You may notice that only Kino and Manje hid the church treasures. Not exactly a horde of gold bullion.

You have a good memory.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Backwoodsbob]

You say that only them two hid the churches treasure. What makes you so sure of that? There are many places still out there.

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[cactusjumper]

You say that only them two hid the churches treasure. What makes you so sure of that? There are many places still out there.

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Backwoodsbob,

I was writing about a specific event, where only Father Kino and Manje were involved. I believe I could find other instances where other priests at other churches, where there was danger of imminent attack, where the priests hid the church artifacts. I believe they did that before fleeing the area. At the expulsion, I believe most such "treasures" were found and confiscated. If not, the natives and soldiers were notoriously sticky fingered.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

You are correct about the Jesuits hiding the church treasures when they felt they were in danger. Herbert Eugene Bolton wrote:

"At Dolores Father Kino, Lieutenant Manje, and three citizens of Bacanuche awaited the onslaught. An Indian who had been stationed on the mountains, seeing the smoke at San Ignacio, fled to Dolores with the news that Father Campos and all the soldiers had been killed. Manje sped to Opodepe to get aid; the three citizens hurried home to Bacanuche, and Kino was left alone. When Manje returned next day, together they hid the treasures of the church in a cave, but in spite of the soldier's entreaties that they should flee, Kino insisted on returning to the mission to await death, which they did. It is indicative of the modesty of this great soul that in his autobiography this incident in his life is passed over in complete silence. But Manje, who was weak or wise enough to wish to flee, was also generous and brave enough to record the padre's heroism and his own fears."

You may notice that only Kino and Manje hid the church treasures. Not exactly a horde of gold bullion.

You have a good memory.

Take care,

Joe

Hmm just exactly how much could two men hide in a cave, in an unexplained amount of time? Lets say they only had a day to get it done. How much could two men, that certainly had access to such things as ox carts, wagons, mules, burros and horses, move to a cave to conceal it? I think you may be underestimating just what "horde" is being referred to here. Also remember that Kino himself wrote about shipping a load of silver bullion to Rome, which unfortunately somehow vanished before it ever reached there. If memory serves, that amounted so some 800 ounces? Would you turn your nose up at 800 ounces of silver? The point being made was that we have recorded instances of Jesuits hiding 'church' treasures inside of caves. If a treasure hunter wishes to find a lost Jesuit treasure then, the logical starting point would be to search for caves known to those Jesuits, would it not?

Thanks for the compliment, but although some of these details do stick in memory, I can not remember what I ate yesterday!

Backwoodsbob wrote

You say that only them two hid the churches treasure. What makes you so sure of that? There are many places still out there.

You are reading something I never wrote - I did NOT say that they ONLY hid two church treasures in two caves. There could be as many more as there were missions and visitas! The whole point was that if anyone wishes to search for a Jesuit treasure, the logical place to start looking is caves that may have been known to the Jesuits of each location. It is not going to be easy either, for the caves would logically be sealed up too. Please don't misunderstand what I was saying - not that ONLY two church treasures were ever hidden in caves, just that we have two RECORDED cases of this happening.

We might also add the San Xavier del Bac treasure, which included the massive silver altar service, and MAY be hidden in a cave or old mine. In fact this treasure may be hidden inside the La Esmeralda mine, which also remains un-discovered today. The evidence points to the Indians themselves being responsible for hiding this rather impressive treasure, estimated in the early 1800s to be worth at least $40,000 in silver - probably twenty times that today. Also, there is one documented case where the Jesuits hid a small gold treasure in the walls of a mission in Baja California, which is unique and the only such instance I know of, so it is almost certainly a waste of time to destroy old mission ruins thinking some treasure is hidden inside the walls. The padres were far from stupid, they knew that the missions were probably the worst possible place to hide any treasures.

It is only logical that the padres (and I would include the Franciscans, Dominicans etc) would make use of existing tunnels and caves to hide treasures, especially if only known to "their" Indians, rather than having to dig a big hole in a hurry. Also, it would make it that much easier to retrieve said treasures when the danger(s) had passed.

 

[Backwoodsbob]

I did not mean to disrupt you
I'm in the southeastern part of the country. The old Spanish trail goes all the way to St. Augustine FL. To the west coast. I believe that there were times when they would have packed it across the country. When so many ships went down due to storms. It was a route they.knew well. I'm basing that on all the stuff they left behind. There are a lot ofb worked stone In places you don't hear about. Now what about the French Jesuit.

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[Real of Tayopa]

Oro ,in a certain Church in Guadalajara, the Priest in charge gave us permission to search. In a certain area next to a window he received a strong signal and of course reported it to the Jefe, The Jefe said wait a bt, the nunery is on the other side of the wall.I will find an excuse to vacate the nuns, then we can go see what is there, After some time with no report from the Jefe my, then partner, went back to the spot to recheck his readng only to find a freshly patched wall and no further signal. He reported it and the then Jefe was transferred to a very poor parish, but whatever he found in the wall was never reported,//



In Chinapas I received a strong reading in the floor of the Cato of the church, I had to leave before we could excavate due to a flying contract in Canada, and of course you can trust a priest, no ?, When I returned there was a fresh patch in the floor some 7 ft long and the priest assured me with a straight face, that they had found nothing, course the signal was no longer there , hm do ya spose ---?

Oh yes I had a letter form themain churchin Sonora, suggesting to the various priests to allow me to search the properties under their control

 

[Oroblanco]

I did not mean to disrupt you
I'm in the southeastern part of the country. The old Spanish trail goes all the way to St. Augustine FL. To the west coast. I believe that there were times when they would have packed it across the country. When so many ships went down due to storms. It was a route they.knew well. I'm basing that on all the stuff they left behind. There are a lot ofb worked stone In places you don't hear about. Now what about the French Jesuit.

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NO offense amigo, just have had this happen quite a lot, where people misread or misunderstand what I wrote, and leads to further misunderstandings and arguments. Maybe I should have phrased it differently, so it did not sound as if I were saying only TWO possible treasures exist to be found. On the French Jesuits of the east and north, I doubt that very much work has been done to research them. But they were deceitful and always trying to get as much profits as possible, just a skim through the Jesuit Relations will prove that. Just one example, when they were working to erect a new mission church on the shores of one of the Great Lakes, the Frenchmen they had hired to build it, struck a vein of gold! The workmen asked the padres if it was gold, and the priest lied to them and told them it was "native brass" so they would not be digging it. So you have a lot of research possibilities, may be worth a separate thread for the French Jesuits.

Real de Tayopa - while I must compliment you on your being able to get permission to search churches/missions, really the only such case of a treasure hidden inside the mission itself, was not too impressive, if memory serves it was valued at something like 700 pesos or so. This might have been a personal treasure of a priest or lay brother, as opposed to a church treasure. But I would definitely try to discourage anyone from trying to dig the old mission churches of the American southwest, for one thing they have been pretty thoroughly searched already, it would be highly destructive of the ruins or existing church, AND would almost certainly land you in prison besides a fat fine to boot.

Cactusjumper - I must respectfully disagree, the evidence we have of the Jesuit expulsion, points to the Spanish and/or natives failing to find very much treasure at all. This despite the energetic and even comical efforts they exerted in such places as Mexico city. Was there any search at all performed at San Xavier del Bac, or Arivaca or Guevavi? Certainly by the time the Franciscans arrived to replace them, very little in the way of treasure was to be seen. Too little in fact. But who or whom actually hid any treasure? Based on the example of San Xavier del Bac, it looks to me that the 'loyal' Indios at the missions were the people that hid the treasures. That they were able to trot out the massive silver service at the return of the Jesuits in the early 1860s, and again conceal them when the Jesuits fled, would support that theory.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[Backwoodsbob]

Thanks to both Roy and Joe for the clarification. I live on the line between French and Spanish Do either of you believe that the Jesuit Priest were one. The reason I ask is I see both influence on this site. Thanks for your time. God bless all of you.
Bob

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[Oroblanco]

Thanks to both Roy and Joe for the clarification. I live on the line between French and Spanish Do either of you believe that the Jesuit Priest were one. The reason I ask is I see both influence on this site. Thanks for your time. God bless all of you.
Bob

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Not sure what you are asking but absolutely, the French Jesuits and mostly German Jesuits of Mexico and Latin America, as well as the Jesuits in the Philippines, Japan, China, India, Ethiopia, were really all working for the same Order, and expected to send money to their 'base' in Rome. This is how the Jesuits were able to erect a life sized solid silver statue of Saint Xavier at their center in Rome. In theory, the priests were supposed to be trying to work for and help the countries they were operating under, France and Spain for instance or Portugal in Brazil, but they also answered to a "higher authority" in Rome. Their involvement in politics is the main reason why they were expelled by the Portuguese in 1759, by the French in 1764, the Spanish in 1767, and finally suppressed in 1774. The Order was supposed to disband "forever" as it is termed on the Bull that suppressed the Order but managed to keep in operation in Russia and a few other places, like Maryland where they just continued as if nothing had happened, and in 1814 they were re-established by the Pope.

It would make perfect sense to find evidence of both French and Spanish in some places, like Florida, where the French established the first real colony only to see the Spanish attack it and utterly destroy it. An interesting point there too for the French had a secret gold mine they called "Appalachee" and the Spanish went so far as to torture the French captives to try to learn the location but never did find it, and as far as I know, no one ever has found it, nor for that matter has any gold mine ever been found in Florida period.

 

[Backwoodsbob]

Thanks you for this information. Sometimes I wonder if this place is the missing french mine. It fits a lot of the clues. Just dreaming but who knows.

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[itzyoboyandrew]

Kinda funny, I actually started this thread.. Oh have things have changed!

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[gflores71]

I missed a Jesuit treasure in a cave, found the entrance about 3 months too late. By the size of the in print left behind in the ground of the container removed I'd say it was quite large. It was also covered by a flat large stone despite being inside the cave. I am currently searching for another one also in a cave but the area to be searched is extensive. These based on documents of the loot left behind when kicked out from the colonies. The land was also owned by the " compañia de Jesus " according to records. A drone is helping some... since the areas are not easily accessible. All this in South America.

 

[Backwoodsbob]

I missed a Jesuit treasure in a cave, found the entrance about 3 months too late. By the size of the in print left behind in the ground of the container removed I'd say it was quite large. It was also covered by a flat large stone despite being inside the cave. I am currently searching for another one also in a cave but the area to be searched is extensive. These based on documents of the loot left behind when kicked out from the colonies. The land was also owned by the " compañia de Jesus " according to records. A drone is helping some... since the areas are not easily accessible. All this in South America.

How are you following it? Are you using sign and symbols or another method? Have you read the thread from Sandy1? It's ,a guide to vault treasure hunting. If you have pictures to sharing it would be nice.

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[gflores71]

I do not search or follow signs, In my situation of searching for these things for decades I have yet to run into any situation where markings where left behind. I have a document written by a Jesuit priest that went back to Europe after 1767. I guess they thought changes would happen eventually with the crown and would be able to go back to the colonies. In this case the priest was old and frail so he wrote in a blank page of a book. He gave details about location and the cave, the problem is that there are many caves in the same area with ancient paintings, the more we search the more caves we find.
In my case I just have to keep at it, use the drone to film areas of interest and review later in HD. Pictures are good because they are 12MP and allow for very good detail with zooming. This allows me to also find ways to access the areas of interest as there is a lot of vegetation and geographic hindrances.

The one I missed was in a mountain chain, very hard access. Had a side entrance that was not visible from the front. I dont know how they managed to get the container (big) in the cave and also fill it up. I guess a lot of people working together. That cave had no signs ( I guess they would not want any ). It was in direct line from their mining operations about 20 miles away to the next town. This next town would have been the route to the main city on their way out in 1767.

I tried uploading pictures and it froze the whole page.

G