JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

deducer

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Okay kiddies,

For thee of little faith, I have decided to share some more knowledge. There are some that discount the finding of the Jesuit Cache in Rio de Janeiro because of one of the sources of the story "The Bay of Plenty Times" in Australia. Even though the other reference is from the Canada Law Journal, you seem to discount that as well. In reality, this story was very big news in July of 1891. There were retellings of the story during that month and the month of August (of the same year) in papers in every major city in the United States. Here are a few examples:
Enjoy - Mike

Of immense interest to me is not quite the caches themselves as much as the intricate nature of their storage, the elaborate and immense effort expended towards their concealment as this very particular thing is what I feel separates the Jesuits from the Spanish, for example. We see similar efforts being undertaken at places such as Sacambaya (and others), where expedition after expedition failed, not for lack of direction but for the immense labor involved. Similarly, I recall reading of an Emerald (?) mine in Brazil being sealed by a gigantic slab of stone placed atop, by scores of Indians under the directions of the padres. This makes one think that the same degree of intensity and cunning undertaken, must necessarily then be that which "Peligroza" refers to. Not that which is above, but remains tenaciously below.

Of particular interest, also, is the document from the Museum of Lisbon of RG Fr. Goncalves describing concealed property, whereof a copy of this document also resides (or resided) with the Reverend General of Rome (the Curia?). This would indicate that Rome also knew and was complicit.
 
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gollum

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Scorch

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Hey ya'll,

Newbie here, have just spent the last days reading this entire thread, at first I was curious now I'm ... getting interested, I have always had a general history interest and I find your researches absolutely fascinating! If you will permit me some impressions after 206 pages, ...

- I think there is a tendency to make details about the Jesuits both overly complex and also over simplified. One thing to keep in mind is that these were times of transition - for all of Europe - from a medieval mindset, and the institutions were slow to change their thinking, so they would not necessarily have had the same value system we would like to frame them with today, possibly, for instance, in regards to ideas of ownership of resources, or bodies, or souls. Killing a body to save a soul was a perfectly acceptable action for most medievals, and for 'mother' church - I think the Salem witch trials happened right before 1700 ? (not sure) And they weren't Catholics!!

- Some things we might consider cruel they might have seen as 'training', or 'conditioning', the Spanish were known for their 'cruelty' and being able to keep a 'cool' head in a fight, It was this mindset backed up by their technology that kept them alive, I think ,their two sword fighting style was so efficient that it has inspired and partly survived in many if not all of the present Phillipino martial stick arts, so I think a Jesuit must have had to have a fairly tough mindset to deal with them, and 180 bodies to keep a mine secret is not that far of a stretch for someone like that, it would seem.

- Also, it should be helpful to keep in mind that the Jesuits were not a Spanish national organization, they were an inter-national religious organization, so it is not that unlikely they would work with their brother French Jesuits, it seems. Oh, and wasn't the inquisition a Dominican outfit, and not a Jesuit one?

Thanks for some great reading!! Espresso's in advance? :coffee2:

Thanks,
Scorch
 
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gollum

gollum

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Hey ya'll,

Newbie here, have just spent the last days reading this entire thread, at first I was curious now I'm ... getting interested, I have always had a general history interest and I find your researches absolutely fascinating! If you will permit me some impressions after 206 pages, ...

- I think there is a tendency to make details about the Jesuits both overly complex and also over simplified. One thing to keep in mind is that these were times of transition - for all of Europe - from a medieval mindset, and the institutions were slow to change their thinking, so they would not necessarily have had the same value system we would like to frame them with today, possibly, for instance, in regards to ideas of ownership of resources, or bodies, or souls. Killing a body to save a soul was a perfectly acceptable action for most medievals, and for 'mother' church - I think the Salem witch trials happened right before 1700 ? (not sure) And they weren't Catholics!!

- Some things we might consider cruel they might have seen as 'training', or 'conditioning', the Spanish were known for their 'cruelty' and being able to keep a 'cool' head in a fight, It was this mindset backed up by their technology that kept them alive, I think ,their two sword fighting style was so efficient that it has inspired and partly survived in many if not all of the present Phillipino martial stick arts, so I think a Jesuit must have had to have a fairly tough mindset to deal with them, and 180 bodies to keep a mine secret is not that far of a stretch for someone like that, it would seem.

- Also, it should be helpful to keep in mind that the Jesuits were not a Spanish national organization, they were an inter-national religious organization, so it is not that unlikely they would work with their brother French Jesuits, it seems. Oh, and wasn't the inquisition a Dominican outfit, and not a Jesuit one?

Thanks for some great reading!! Espresso's in advance? :coffee2:

Thanks,
Scorch


I have studied the Jesuit Order in great detail, and I can tell you that even at the time, to murder 180 individuals to keep a secret would not have been done.

The Dominicans were indeed initially chosen as inquisitors, but that was three hundred years before the Jesuits became an order.

Mike
 
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gollum

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.............and here is an article specifically for Don Guacamole:


El_Paso_Herald_Sat__Aug_15__1908_.jpg

Joe has been telling this story for a long time, about meeting Jesuits in the Mountains. This article is from 1908! Looks like for whatever reason, the Jesuits lost the means to find their hidden wealth. They know its there, just not how to find it.

Mike
 

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gollum

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Precisely :icon_thumleft:





But what I really appreciate is the fact that no artificial preservatives are needed. :wink: :smileinbox:

EVERYTHING out of my bellybutton is natural!

I have said it a multitude of times. The Jesuits likely entrusted the secret of finding their wealth to very few people. Take the Bolivian Mission of Sacambaya. Of the eight Jesuits that resided there, seven were hanged. One got away and wrote the story that started a treasure hunt in Bolivia/Peru. Many of the Mexican Jesuits died in transit during the Spanish Suppression of the Order. More than likely (again) whomever held the secrets of Jesuit Treasure Recovery died and there secret died with them.

Mike
 
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Scorch

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There are varying amounts of historical documentation for the different mines, So here's a question...

- Hypothetically speaking, For those here who believe Jesuit treasures are Real ( and you have convinced me!) What mine do you believe would be the most realistic for you to Find and then uncover and Document? And what resources would you need, and what would be your steps to take?

Thanks!! :coffee2:,

Scorch
 

Oroblanco

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Scorch wrote

There are varying amounts of historical documentation for the different mines, So here's a question...

- Hypothetically speaking, For those here who believe Jesuit treasures are Real ( and you have convinced me!) What mine do you believe would be the most realistic for you to Find and then uncover and Document? And what resources would you need, and what would be your steps to take ?


First a belated welcome to Treasurenet Scorch! :thumbsup:

I would ask a question first too, concerning your hypothetical one. What would be the motive for finding, uncovering and documenting a Jesuit mine? I think it would be a huge disappointment if one undertakes such a quest, with an eye toward gaining fame and recognition from academia. In fact academics have almost zero interest in old mines of any kind, Jesuit or otherwise. This is glaringly obvious when you start to research the matter, even when members of the Royal Geographic Society did a little investigating, the result was a rather noticable snore and no followup. Even the fame of the news media is fleeting - unless the mine is a most famous one, known among the general population and with a record of being covered by the news media, at best it will amount to the five minutes of fame from the old saying. Be prepared to endure ridicule and derision from the skeptics too, for the very concept of Jesuit mines and treasures is ridiculous to some people.

Outside of the treasure hunting community and some Jesuits ably re-writing their own history to erase unpleasant chapters, there is hardly any notice of this controversy. It fits the tempest in a teacup description. Ask some of your non-treasure-hunting friends what are their opinions about Jesuit mines and treasures, be prepared for the sidelong look and shrugging shoulders. The few that have done some reading on history of the southwest, are more than happy to accept the statements of father Polzer, Burrus and other Jesuits that there never were any mines nor treasures, after all the Jesuits had that vow of poverty, their sole goal was the saving of souls of the heathen. The record, which includes the suppression of the Society by a Pope, and one of the greatest amassing of wealth in history, speaks otherwise, but this has not been brought to the public notice in part because there is so little interest.

All that said, your best bet for making such a case is probably within one of the not-lost mines like the Salero, Wandering Jew, the silver mines of Pozos near Cananea, which the local authorities claim is documented as being first discovered by Jesuits. Or you could simply go research the records on the mines referred to by the Catholic study (The Wealth of the Jesuits in Mexico) which were owned openly, you should have no trouble other than needing to travel to Mexico and spend time in dusty old files. There are a number of named mines which were documented according to earlier treasure hunters (whom almost certainly pilfered those documents) and have been searched for by numerous persons for centuries. It is not likely to be successful in finding one of those lost mines which were not rediscovered by earlier treasure hunters, besides having been hidden in the 1700s, mother nature has been helping to conceal and blend into the surroundings all this time. The odds are heavily against you finding one of those mines.

Father Nentvig's book Rudo Ensayo lists a number of mines as being associated with various missions - though the information is vague, and ownership might be classed as belonging to the local Indians (one of the dodges used by Jesuits in order to be able to honestly say they have no mines) you might be able to track down one or more, however finding the documentation will be very tough for we are hardly the first treasure hunters on the scene and there were no rules or laws about pilfering documents from old missions for many years.

Oroblanco
 
 
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Scorch

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Scorch wrote


First a belated welcome to Treasurenet Scorch! :thumbsup:

I would ask a question first too, concerning your hypothetical one. What would be the motive for finding, uncovering and documenting a Jesuit mine? I think it would be a huge disappointment if one undertakes such a quest, with an eye toward gaining fame and recognition from academia. In fact academics have almost zero interest in old mines of any kind, Jesuit or otherwise. This is glaringly obvious when you start to research the matter, even when members of the Royal Geographic Society did a little investigating, the result was a rather noticable snore and no followup. Even the fame of the news media is fleeting - unless the mine is a most famous one, known among the general population and with a record of being covered by the news media, at best it will amount to the five minutes of fame from the old saying. Be prepared to endure ridicule and derision from the skeptics too, for the very concept of Jesuit mines and treasures is ridiculous to some people.

Outside of the treasure hunting community and some Jesuits ably re-writing their own history to erase unpleasant chapters, there is hardly any notice of this controversy. It fits the tempest in a teacup description. Ask some of your non-treasure-hunting friends what are their opinions about Jesuit mines and treasures, be prepared for the sidelong look and shrugging shoulders. The few that have done some reading on history of the southwest, are more than happy to accept the statements of father Polzer, Burrus and other Jesuits that there never were any mines nor treasures, after all the Jesuits had that vow of poverty, their sole goal was the saving of souls of the heathen. The record, which includes the suppression of the Society by a Pope, and one of the greatest amassing of wealth in history, speaks otherwise, but this has not been brought to the public notice in part because there is so little interest.

All that said, your best bet for making such a case is probably within one of the not-lost mines like the Salero, Wandering Jew, the silver mines of Pozos near Cananea, which the local authorities claim is documented as being first discovered by Jesuits. Or you could simply go research the records on the mines referred to by the Catholic study (The Wealth of the Jesuits in Mexico) which were owned openly, you should have no trouble other than needing to travel to Mexico and spend time in dusty old files. There are a number of named mines which were documented according to earlier treasure hunters (whom almost certainly pilfered those documents) and have been searched for by numerous persons for centuries. It is not likely to be successful in finding one of those lost mines which were not rediscovered by earlier treasure hunters, besides having been hidden in the 1700s, mother nature has been helping to conceal and blend into the surroundings all this time. The odds are heavily against you finding one of those mines.

Father Nentvig's book Rudo Ensayo lists a number of mines as being associated with various missions - though the information is vague, and ownership might be classed as belonging to the local Indians (one of the dodges used by Jesuits in order to be able to honestly say they have no mines) you might be able to track down one or more, however finding the documentation will be very tough for we are hardly the first treasure hunters on the scene and there were no rules or laws about pilfering documents from old missions for many years.

Oroblanco
 
[/SIZE]

Oroblanco,

Thanks for the Welcome!
I appreciate your very astute answers! And I think your 'tempest in a teacup' analogy is fitting. But I just feel that these subjects, historically, have a legitimate place at the table. There are a couple of those "'Reduction' stories" that reminded me of the sign at the front of Auschwitz labor camp: 'Work will make you free.' And not because some Jesuits were German!:tongue3: I'm not here to judge anyone - past or present. However, I think in terms of the Origin story of the America's there should be some acknowledgement. But maybe that is what treasure hunters are for! Look at what Mel Fisher has accomplished over the years, in moving the 'Atocha' from modern myth to reality.

Noble purposes aside, I wouldn't mind just finding some gold, like anybody else. Being from the middle of Mississippi, that seems highly unlikely! A couple decades ago I spent a training exercise out in the rocks and rattlers of north Ft. Bliss with a guy who talked about buried gold there. I have since figured out he was talking about the Victorio Peak story. And that's the closest I've ever got to any lost Spanish gold.
Maybe if Disney would build a Theme park around the Salero ...:laughing7:
Thanks!! :coffee2:,

Scorch
 
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deducer

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Look at what Mel Fisher has accomplished over the years, in moving the 'Atocha' from modern myth to reality.

The difference between the Atocha and Jesuit treasure is that the existence of the Atocha was never in dispute. The existence of Jesuit treasure, on the other hand, is continually disputed, in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, and even the academic world has been cowered into aligning with religious interests who I suspect do not so much want to recover those treasure as to sweep a dark chapter in their history under the rug.
 

Oroblanco

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Oroblanco,


Maybe if Disney would build a Theme park around the Salero ...:laughing7:

YE GADS amigo DON'T give them ANY IDEAS!!!! :tongue3:

I have to agree that the forced labor issue is probably one of the things the Jesuits do not want to be remembered in history. While legally the forced labor could not be more than three days per week, there was no one to enforce the law if some padres or coadjutors were bending the laws a bit on that. Plus the fact that the mission Indians were NOT free to leave the mission grounds, nor conduct any business with outsiders without permission of the padres, is another possible 'blotch' on their record they might wish us to forget. I can't imagine that the Jesuits would relish the idea of seeing a Hollywood movie come out depicting the padres as having the Indians whipped and put into stocks for not working hard enough, or that often the Indian rebellions seemed to target the padres as their main antagonists.

Oroblanco <still shuddering at the thought of a Disney park at Salero.....::) >
 

deducer

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I can't imagine that the Jesuits would relish the idea of seeing a Hollywood movie come out depicting the padres as having the Indians whipped and put into stocks for not working hard enough, or that often the Indian rebellions seemed to target the padres as their main antagonists.

You never know, Roy! :wink:
 

Scorch

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Ruins in Arizona May Be ‘Lost’ Jesuit Mission

Posted by Blake de Pastino on January 20, 2014

If archaeologists working in southern Arizona are right in their assumptions, some adobe ruins showcased in Tumacácori National Park may not be what the pamphlets and tour guides say they are.

Instead, less than a hundred meters away may sit the actual site: the ruins of the 1751 mission of Guevavi, the last Jesuit mission built on the Santa Cruz River before the Catholic order met with native revolt and eventual expulsion. ...

The site, discovered on property owned by the city of Nogales near the Mexican border, has already yielded ruins believed to be those of Arizona’s first Jesuit mission, built in 1701, as well as evidence of centuries’ worth of occupation by the Sobaipuri-O’odham, whose descendants are now part of the Tohono O’odham Nation.

While they stress that their research is not complete, the researchers, led by Dr. Deni Seymour of the Jornada Research Institute, say they’re “excited” that they may have identified the last Jesuit outpost in one of Arizona’s most historically important missions, a “lost mission that scholars didn’t know was lost.” ...

Indeed, Seymour suspects that the large, standing ruins protected in Tumacácori National Park as the 1751 Guevavi mission may in fact be the remnants of a Franciscan church from this later period.

“The Franciscans … tended to build much more grandiose structures,” she said.

Although some histories of the region, including that offered by the National Park Service, posit that the Franciscans simply took over existing Jesuit missions, Seymour says archaeological and historical evidence suggest otherwise.

“When new priests came, they tended to consecrate new altars, and often this meant building a new church,” she said.

“It is highly unlikely that the Franciscans would have used the same church as the Jesuits, as most Franciscan churches in this region are in different locations than the Jesuit ones, sometimes miles away.”


One of the impressions of this thread seems to have been that the Fransicans were, as an order, less fancy than the Jesuits in their approach to their churches , etc. This article from westerndigs.org indicates otherwise. Also, as it indicates, if the standing mission @ Tumacorcori was built by Fransicans, and that they have now found what they believe to be the Jesuit site 100 meters away, then, I wonder what progress , 11 months later now, the city of Nogales would have made on some lost mine. Does anyone know, what progress -if any - they have made? If I had known back in January when they released this, and had a few hundred grand to spare, I'd have been down there buying all the adjacent/ potential land sites I could! :tongue3: Probably a lot of legal consultation going on, if she is resorting to 'crowdfunding'.

One other question: Are there any known maps that are Not copies? I mean - Known to be drawn by eyewitnesses to events of the mines at the time of the events? Or have they all been made or copied after the fact, based on memory or anecdote/ hearsay ?

Thanks !! :coffee2:,

Scorch
 
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