JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Gentlemen: The Americas were ruled by two different groups, The councils of the Indies. One for North America, the other for South America. They were considered the direct representatives of the king, but often had conflicting rules, depending upon local conditions.

In South America it was allowable to mine, In North America it was a quasi no no, If a Jesuit inherited or obtained a mine, he was allowed to keep it until He could dispose of it, apparently no sincere enforcement on time was done.

Most of the Jesuit mining, and clandestine movement of smelted metals, in North America was done by the coadjutors.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

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[Cubfan64]

Gentlemen: The Americas were ruled by two different groups, The councils of the Indies. One for North America, the other for South America. They were considered the direct representatives of the king, but often had conflicting rules, depending upon local conditions.

In South America it was allowable to mine, In North America it was a quasi no no, If a Jesuit inherited or obtained a mine, he was allowed to keep it until He could dispose of it, apparently no sincere enforcement on time was done.

Most of the Jesuit mining, and clandestine movement of smelted metals, in North America was done by the coadjutors.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Have you ever discovered why the different rules for NA?

 

[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

"Most of the Jesuit mining, and clandestine movement of smelted metals, in North America was done by the coadjutors."

Can you cite a reliable source for that statement?

Thanks in advance,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Joe: since you deny that the mining and the accumulated metal which was shipped to Rome, was done by the Priests, then by whom, if not the coadjutors?

Incidentally, the source at the present is myself, which is probably more certain than any other. Mine happens to be backed by the system of leap frog missions that were set up. Several have been found, many more to go. Do you have a helicopter that I can use to speed up things?

Incidentally, I have posted on the primary one for the Tayopa zone, check on it. There were others set up near other Jesuit mining centers. Eventually they all converged on the main route on to the East coast.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good morning Cubber: I presume that because they were different groups of people, under different conditions, with the authority to do so.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Joe: since you deny that the mining and the accumulated metal which was shipped to Rome, was done by the Priests, then by whom, if not the coadjutors?

Incidentally, the source at the present is myself, which is probably more certain than any other. Mine happens to be backed by the system of leap frog missions that were set up. Several have been found, many more to go. Do you have a helicopter that I can use to speed up things?

Incidentally, I have posted on the primary one for the Tayopa zone, check on it. There were others set up near other Jesuit mining centers. Eventually they all converged on the main route on to the East coast.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Don Jose,

I don't believe I could produce a helicopter to locate old buildings or building sites in Northern Mexico. We would not have enough years left between us to find, identify and date them all to a specific era, let alone a specific use. How many hundreds of thousands of such sites do you suppose there might be in Mexico?

What is your source for the "fact" that any valuable metals were "shipped to Rome" by anyone connected to the Jesuits?

Most of the Jesuit missions were established near "mining centers". The miners did have some system set up to ship those precious metals to Spain. While your "leap frog" theory seems realistic, there is no evidence, other than your suppositions, that it was created and run by and for the Jesuits, or for the benefit of the Catholic Church and the Pope.

There was no such thing as a "Jesuit mining center". If there were, it would have been discovered by the thousands of Spanish miners/prospectors/thieves who scoured Northern Mexico. The system you believe was set up to remove the refined gold/silver from the location you believe is Tayopa, alone, would have been a huge red flag.

I appreciate your trust in yourself as being the only source required to convince the rest of the world, but some small sliver of historical documentation would be nice.

Right now, Mexico is a very unstable place to have a Gringo setting on millions of dollars worth of.....anything. People are having their heads sawed off for much less. And yet here you are, for years, advertising the mines location, the fact that you believe there is "treasure" just waiting to be hauled away, and less real security than we have at many inner-city high schools.

It's true that I have my doubts, but I don't believe they are unreasonable.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Saturna]

I appreciate your trust in yourself as being the only source required to convince the rest of the world, but some small sliver of historical documentation would be nice.

That's one way to put it.

 

[cactusjumper]

Saturna,

What's the other way.......

Joe Ribaudo

 

[motell6]

There are many hundreds of Buried sub-missions,Visitas,Jesuit friendly Indian villages,waterholes,yet to be uncovered in the Sowest,and they do stretch into Mexico and California. The Jesuit mineing operations were real,and they did put a harness on the Indians and any-other non-Jesuit whom they considered beneath them.They used Latin,because that is what they were trained in,and it was a difficult linquestet barrier for others to learn.The priests were trained in the art of chemistry and smelting...For maps to these submissions ,vistas,indian villages,etc ,try to obtain a copy of Boltons book,Christidom,the copy with all the maps, forget ,maybe copyright,1936,has a photo of a Don,on a horse in side cover.And there are plenty of valuable Jesuit relics yet to be found. Dont be discouraged by naysayers,millions of what would be todays dollars went through the Jesuits palms, in the Americas.

 

[cactusjumper]

Mr. Goate,

"For maps to these submissions ,vistas,indian villages,etc ,try to obtain a copy of Boltons book,Christidom,the copy with all the maps, forget".

I assume you mean "Rim Of Christendom". I have a copy which includes all of the maps. Is there something specific I should look for?

Once again, not to be a naysayer, but do you have any sources for the rest of your statement?

Thanks in advance,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good evening gentlemen, that includes you swr. It was posted

A) What is your source for the "fact" that any valuable metals were "shipped to Rome" by anyone connected to the Jesuits?
*******************
Shall we say the Indians that have lived in the vicinity of at least 3 or more generations.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

B) I appreciate your trust in yourself as being the only source required to convince the rest of the world, but some small sliver of historical documentation would be nice.
*******************
Only source required ? nah, but the only one available, unless you can unlock the hidden archives in The Jesuit societies archives. As for convincing the rest of the world, not really interested in that. If so I certainly would be broadcasting it to the world via other media.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

C) Right now, Mexico is a very unstable place to have a Gringo setting on millions of dollars worth of.....anything. People are having their heads sawed off for much less. And yet here you are, for years, advertising the mines location, the fact that you believe there is "treasure" just waiting to be hauled away, and less real security than we have at many inner-city high schools.
*****************
My protection is simply why 'you' have doubts on me. No one believes it and in a show down, I can simply say that "I am a very accomplished story teller", thus fulfilling swr's impression of me, no? snicker

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

[A) What is your source for the "fact" that any valuable metals were "shipped to Rome" by anyone connected to the Jesuits?
*******************
Shall we say the Indians that have lived in the vicinity of at least 3 for generations.]

Which local tribe would that be? How do they know that the metals were shipped to Rome? Did the Jesuits put shipping labels on their loot?

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Gentlemen: The answers to these, and other questions have been covered various times. If you are truly interested, I suggest that you review the past posts on Tayopa. I have posted enough data already to cover all of the present questions being asked. If the posters are actually interested, they are posted here in TN. Incidentally, only TN / Marc has them today.

I have never intended to 'prove' that I have found Tayopa in here, but posted in order to invite any interested TN reader come along with me on the final stages of the search, to actually participate and to ask questions, and ask again. Many have been very helpful in ironing out the small subtle details that I was not too sure or clear on.

Joe I am surprised that you haven't branched out into the Jesuit Plot with the Dutch to take North America away from Spain, and how they intended to do it.


Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s Have a huge head ache tonight, so forgive me if I am a bit off SHADDUP BB !!

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

MY apologies Joe, blame it on my headache last night. ask away but keep in mind that in many cases my information will be the only data 'pubilcally' available. If it had been known in the past, Tayopa would have been found hundreds of years go.


Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

Don't get me wrong. I have always believed you have found something important in Mexico. It may very well be Tayopa. What I don't believe is that a find as big as that was ever worked in complete secrecy.....by Jesuits or anyone else, but especially by the Jesuits or their coadjutors, temporal or spiritual.

I have never seen or heard of a single historical document that even suggests that the coadjutors were engaged in that sort of work. I know, the Vatican made sure that all such evidence was buried or destroyed.
That would not work with the extensive Spanish archives. When you stop and consider the fact that the King's representatives were up to their necks in the Jesuit cesspools looking for anything, to justify the expulsion, you have to imagine they were preserving any documentation that would prove their suspicions.

While you, as well as many others, are looking for such evidence century's removed, they were searching for documentation with the ink barely dry......so to speak. You are all left grasping at literary straws which are hardly something any fair-minded researcher would ever consider a "smoking gun".

"I am surprised that you haven't branched out into the Jesuit Plot with the Dutch to take North America away from Spain, and how they intended to do it."

I have tried to stay focused on the Jesuits of Northern Mexico and their involvement in mining and possible resulting treasures. I have done minimal research on them and various theories of conspiracies in other parts of the world, but have read a little on their overall history.......Pro and Con.

I have not, or don't remember, having read every post in the Tayopa topic. Rather than go back through them all, I felt it would be much easier for you to just give a short answer to my questions. My memory ain't so good anymore.

Hope your headache is gone.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Joe,

Maybe you could show us a period Jesuit Document that even mentions coadjutors?

It's not the Catholic Church that hides that. It is not necessarily even any kind of crazy conspiracy. Just that the Order does not publish lists of the names of their coadjutors. It could be for any of a number of reasons. Most likely because if a known coadjutor in a position of authority favors the Order in some decision, then it could be construed as ....................... well, you know. Whether it was or not. Better to avoid the situation in the first place by not publishing lists, than putting out the fire.

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

"Maybe you could show us a period Jesuit Document that even mentions coadjutors?"


Mike,

I don't agree that the names of the coadjutors have ever been kept a big secret. You can go all the way back to Francisco Pizarro's own written accounts and find the names of two such men assigned to him. They would be, Salva and Baranda. "The History of the Conquest Of Peru" by Prescott.

Moving up in history to 1769 George Hay was consecrated as Bishop Grant's coadjutor in Edinburgh.

Eventually Hay became a Bishop himself, and his coadjutor was John Geddes. As you can see, the term "coadjutor" denotes more than one position, as Geddes himself was a Bishop.

There are many, many period documents, throughout history, that mention coadjutors, as well as their names. I believe you could find them easily if you really wanted to.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

good morning Joe and my other friends: First, just how big do you imagine that the Tayopa mine was? How many personnel? Was there actually a Cathedral as has been stated in many stories?

While the Tayopa mining district or zone was quite extensive, it is consisted of the most broken up country imaginable.

In the Alamos district, which lies just to the south, I can show you records of pack trains being assembled and sent to Mexico of over 1000 animals. This is just one district, with such a flow of bars of Gold and Silver it is fairly easy to bury outlying mines productions. In other words there were packtrains moving everywhere , so nothing out of the ordinary would be noticed by meeting one of them.

The Republic mine alone had a listing of over 3000 mules, 1000 going, 1000 coming, and 1000 resting.

There is so much critical data that I have, that it would convince even swr, but I am not at liberty to discuss them yet, nor will I. As I mentioned I am not here to 'prove' that I have Tayopa, but to allow others here in TN to participate. My title is good for 50 years renewable, but the actual location and entry is my personal information, however it, and other data has, and will be shared with Beth and Oro, since, as you have mentioned, we are getting close, they will have to carry it on if necessary.

Incidentally, people working in the saw mill only 8-900 meters away, line of sight, have no idea where it is.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[motell6]

Mr. Cactus,in answer to your question/s review Boltons map of Jesuits Missons in New Spain,circa 1760, or any of the other maps Bolton has included. Bolton gives many examples of Jesuits prospering and investing through the use of moneys given to them from European patrons,and profits from local mines being used for many projects.Its not to difficult to read between the lines in Boltons books to notice these various monatary uses/s.
In back/notes of my copy Barry Storms book,he gives a actual details,from a news article/or letter of park service argiologist?,finding large round chunks of silver and gold slag pieces in a smelter,attached to a Jesuit mission. So I say to you and others believe or not. In my opinon,and from my own research ,there is plenty of Treasure left to be discovered in Tumincari and other Southwest stateside areas,that are jesuit related.

 

[cactusjumper]

Mr. Goate,

"Bolton gives many examples of Jesuits prospering and investing through the use of moneys given to them from European patrons,and profits from local mines being used for many projects.Its not to difficult to read between the lines in Boltons books to notice these various monetary uses/s."

I believe you misunderstood what Bolton has written. The Society of Jesus had many sources of income. It's true that they took the money they received in donations and invested it into the missions. In that way they increased their herds of livestock and increased their land holdings.

Those investments were used for the betterment of the Order, their Indian populations and the mission system as a whole.....including California. They sold produce and animals from their herds to the miners and settlers. Many times those settlers turned around and sold the produce at a much higher price to others not living close to a mission. They took those profits and invested them back into the missions.

Something to keep in mind while doing your research into "Jesuit treasure", is that the Father's usually insisted on payment in gold and silver. Despite all the stories you have heard and read, almost every mission was in serious debt. When a mission was overly successful, they donated their excess to those missions which were less profitable, trying to help them survive.

[In back/notes of my copy Barry Storms book,he gives a actual details,from a news article/or letter of park service argiologist?,finding large round chunks of silver and gold slag pieces in a smelter,attached to a Jesuit mission.]

Can you tell me which edition of Barry Storm's "Thunder Gods' Gold" you took that information from?

Thank you,

Joe Ribaudo