JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[cactusjumper]

While I am sure that some Indians were fond of the Padres that came to stay with or visit with them, I am of the persuasion that religion had nothing to do with it. They were fond of the padres as you would be fond of a person you considered a good friend.

A new book has come out that has printed Fr. Segesser's very revealing letters and correspondences with his family which gives us a very good, in-depth, look at the everyday life of the Jesuits in the Southwest, amongst the Indians:

A Jesuit Missionary in Eighteenth-Century Sonora: The Family Correspondence of Philipp Segesser: Raymond H. Thompson, Werner S. Zimmt, Robert E. Dahlquist: 9780826354242: Amazon.com: Books

I direct your attention to two phrases which are very telling. The first is quite damaging to the illusion that the Indians actively sought to come to mission for worship or to attend mass, as some would have us believe:

View attachment 965486

This, again, is in Segesser's own words, in which he freely admits that if there is no food, the Indians won't come.

Here is another telling statement, recording what Segesser really thought of Indians in general:

View attachment 965490

deducer,

So, in your mind, does Father Segesser speaks for all of the Jesuits in Mexico? Sounds like one man's words condemns all. That's, pretty much, what I meant by Internet search results. You just don't get the whole story.

Joe Ribaudo

 

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[deducer]

deducer,

So, in your mind, does Father Segesser speaks for all of the Jesuits in Mexico? Sounds like one man's words condemns all. That's, pretty much, what I meant by Internet search results. You just don't get the whole story.

Joe Ribaudo

So when Segesser says:

the same occurs in all missions; where there is a lack of bread, the children stay away. Thus, it is necessary for the Father to provide food. Only then will the Indians make their way here..

you think he is only speaking for himself?

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

deducer,

So, in your mind, does Father Segesser speaks for all of the Jesuits in Mexico?

Sounds like one man's words condemns all. That's, pretty much, what I meant by Internet search results. You just don't get the whole story.

Joe Ribaudo

I realize this was addressed to Deducer, but I have a question here. Deducer posted direct extracts from a BOOK, which is NOT online (I looked) and how does this relate to Internet searches?

Roy <Oroblanco>

 

[crank bait]

Super thread for a Hoosier who still thinks the world might not be flat! Really a great debate seems all have a lill knowledge in the topic. Crankbait

 

[cactusjumper]

Cactusjumper wrote


I realize this was addressed to Deducer, but I have a question here. Deducer posted direct extracts from a BOOK, which is NOT online (I looked) and how does this relate to Internet searches?

Roy <Oroblanco>

Sorry Roy but I believe the information can be found online.

I can only go by what deducer posts. It seems that the only information he has concerning the Jesuit/Indian relationships is negative. There is a good deal out there that is positive.
Not saying he got his information from the Internet, only that if you search for the negative, that's what you will get......exclusively.

He, obviously, has done his research and is contributing some very good information. Believe it is all true.

Father Segesser's experience in Mexico was more than harsh. He was often ill and unable to perform his duties as a missionary. He was assigned to a poor mission with a rebellious native population.

Many of his letters were filled with begging for money and goods and complaining about conditions. Was that the norm for the entire Jesuit Order in Mexico......perhaps. Then again, perhaps it was somewhere in between Father Segesser and Father Kino's attitude.

It was not all that unusual for the missionaries to have low opinions of the Indians, as they were, more often than not, an exasperating lot to teach, which was the Jesuit's job. Most of the priests, but not all, learned their language which was a daunting task.

The fate of the natives was sealed once the Jesuits were expelled. Only the tribes that truly absorbed what they were being taught managed to survive and prosper. It was, basically, a course in survival....for a Spanish controlled world.

Take care,

Joe

 

[deducer]

I can only go by what deducer posts. It seems that the only information he has concerning the Jesuit/Indian relationships is negative. There is a good deal out there that is positive. Not saying he got his information from the Internet, only that if you search for the negative, that's what you will get......exclusively.

What is coming across in my research is that the relationship between the Indians and the Jesuits was mostly negative, and a lot of tension was involved. Naturally there are very rare exceptions, such as with Father Campo, but for the most part, it was not a good relationship, and the JOSW article, The Sonoran Missions and Indian Raids of the Eighteenth Century proves that beyond a doubt, by its very comprehensive analysis of all the Missions. You continually ignore this.

You also have yet to provide some specific, cited examples where the relationship between the Jesuits and the Indians is the opposite of what I have been led to believe, and I don't mean just one or two examples. It would have to stand head to head with what the JOSW article has proven.

Many of his letters were filled with begging for money and goods and complaining about conditions. Was that the norm for the entire Jesuit Order in Mexico......perhaps. Then again, perhaps it was somewhere in between Father Segesser and Father Kino's attitude.

I'm not sure how you can claim that, since the book was just very recently published, and only after the majority of those family correspondences were translated from German. Also I believe that those letters were not available to the general public until the Segesser family in Switzerland released facsimiles to the DRSW.

The fate of the natives was sealed once the Jesuits were expelled. Only the tribes that truly absorbed what they were being taught managed to survive and prosper. It was, basically, a course in survival....for a Spanish controlled world.

The fate of the Indians of the Southwest, as well as those of North America was sealed no matter what happened, because of the ensuing westward expansion. Jesuit influence, one way or another, did not seem to have any marked effect, from what I have read.

 

[deducer]

Sorry Roy but I believe the information can be found online.

Roy is correct. The book does not exist online. Excerpts do, though, via googlebooks.

It still does not change what Fr. Segesser said.

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy is correct. The book does not exist online. Excerpts do, though, via googlebooks.

It still does not change what Fr. Segesser said.

deducer,

I did not say the book could be found online, I said the information/letters could be found there. I have the book, do you?

http://aclassen.faculty.arizona.edu/sites/aclassen.faculty.arizona.edu/files/Engl.trans__2.pdf

Many of the people who post here have been exchanging information with me for years. They, for the most part, have confidence in the facts that I post. As for proving those facts to you, I have little desire to put forth the effort. You seem to think I live to please you. I don't really care what you think/believe. On the other hand, I enjoy reading your posts.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[deducer]

deducer,

I did not say the book could be found online, I said the information/letters could be found there. I have the book, do you?

Many of the people who post here have been exchanging information with me for years. They, for the most part, have confidence in the facts that I post. As for proving those facts to you, I have little desire to put forth the effort. You seem to think I live to please you. I don't really care what you think/believe. On the other hand, I enjoy reading your posts.

Joe Ribaudo

I'm happy you quickly pounced on the book when it went on sale. Mine is still on the way.

I understand that you resent my asking you to source your references for the statements that you make, but I think that's only fair. It's also beneficial to me and to others, in that it may lead to resources previously unknown to us.

After all, you do that to everyone else, including Azmula.

 

[cactusjumper]

I'm happy you quickly pounced on the book when it went on sale. Mine is still on the way.

I understand that you resent my asking you to source your references for the statements that you make, but I think that's only fair. It's also beneficial to me and to others, in that it may lead to resources previously unknown to us.

After all, you do that to everyone else, including Azmula.

deducer,

Pretty obvious where you were coming from all along. I don't have any problem providing my sources and have done so many, many times. When someone, like you, comes at me with an attitude, I return the favor. You have followed me long enough to know the truth, but you just can't see it.

I politely asked Azmula for his source on some HISTORICAL "FACTS" he wrote......some time ago. He along with others, I assume you, went ballistic and started a hate campaign which, obviously, still goes on today. That was years ago.......Get over it. I have tried many, many times to bury the hatchet, but he seems to be carrying this thing to his final days, just as you are.

I don't plan on making that trip with you, so goodby.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[deducer]

deducer,

Pretty obvious where you were coming from all along. I don't have any problem providing my sources and have done so many, many times. When someone, like you, comes at me with an attitude, I return the favor. You have followed me long enough to know the truth, but you just can't see it.

I politely asked Azmula for his source on some HISTORICAL "FACTS" he wrote......some time ago. He along with others, I assume you, went ballistic and started a hate campaign which, obviously, still goes on today. That was years ago.......Get over it. I have tried many, many times to bury the hatchet, but he seems to be carrying this thing to his final days, just as you are.

I don't plan on making that trip with you, so goodby.

Joe Ribaudo

I have no other agenda than to have intelligent discussions in which I and others are expected to cite where our facts come from, I don't see why you would be excepted from this irregardless of your history, or mine.

You have made the following claims:

1) The Jesuits did not engage in mining on an industrial scale.

2) The Jesuits came over here only to "mine souls."

3) The Jesuits had a good relationship with Indians.

4) There are no Jesuit treasure.

Each one of those claims has been debunked by a number of posters, many times over in these past 64 pages (and counting) citing specific examples, yet the discussion continues.

I have shown where the research indicates that the Jesuits and Indians did not get along very well, and have given citations for what formed my conclusions. You have argued that the opposite is true, but have yet to cite specific examples as to why that would be so.

Azmula's credibility was rightfully questioned because he refused to divulge his sources or make citations, just as I am right to question your statements when you refuse to provide facts to back them up, or cite your sources.

You claim that "there is a good deal out there that is positive" about the relationship between Jesuits and Indians, so it shouldn't be hard to cite a few examples, or provide proof to that effect.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Deducer, my coffee? Speaking of sources, what do you do when you personally ARE the source of most of the quoted facts

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Springfield]

...
1) The Jesuits did not engage in mining on an industrial scale.

2) The Jesuits came over here only to "mine souls."

3) The Jesuits had a good relationship with Indians.

4) There are no Jesuit treasure.

Each one of those claims has been debunked by a number of posters, many times over in these past 64 pages (and counting) citing specific examples, yet the discussion continues. ...

The discussion continues because there are no answers acceptable to everyone. As one who has followed these pages dispassionately, here's my take on those four points:

1) I don't see any evidence that the SJ engaged in mining in North America on any level beyond 'modest' at best. Certainly nowhere approaching 'industrial'. Oro has provided some anecdotal evidence indicating a few sites in Arizona alleged to have been worked by the Jesuits. Mike may have too, but I've slept too many times since and I'm not about to wade through all the past material again.
2) This is a question that can be discussed at length, but is probably unanswerable to any significent level of acceptance.
3) This is a value judgment based wholly on anecdotal evidence. I believe the relationship was weak - the vanquished rarely embrace their masters. If mining complaints existed, IMO they were supportive, at best, of bigger issues.
4) There may be a stash or two of candlesticks to be found - even significant - but I've seen no indicatîon of Jesuit treasure caches from Arizona mines that approach the legends that folks insist on believing. The Jesuits may have been involved with cached valuables from sources other than 'Indian mines', but if so, it creates a new discussion.

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

See post #1268

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

See post #1268

Take care,

Joe

Muchas gracias Joe, I do appreciate that, and as you know my interest extends beyond treasure. The book was a bit pricey for my 'library budget' at the moment, especially since another topic is taking precedence. I did find another book on Segesser's letters as well, but not really less expensive either.

Springfield has put the problems of this topic into a nutshell - we are debating something which can not be settled to everyone's satisfaction.

As to how the Jesuits were really viewed by the Indian peoples they 'tended', this is another point that is very difficult to get at the truth for the Jesuits rarely state that they are hated by their Indians, even when rebellions have been blamed on the Jesuits specifically, and at the other end of the pole Spanish sources could be enemies of the Jesuits trying to paint them blacker than they were. I believe the truth is somewhere in between, perhaps summed up in the words of one old Indian woman who told her interviewer, that the "fathers made us work hard". Who would like that?

What about the revolt in Baja California, which erupted in 1734-37? The whole of Baja was under Jesuit jurisdiction, completely, even the soldiers were under their direct command. Spaniards were very much kept out of Baja until after the Jesuits departed, though a few were allowed to live there. Do we blame this Indian revolt on the Spaniards? The Pericu Indians killed two Jesuit padres in that revolt at the outbreak, and four of the six soldiers stationed there.

Don Jose de la Mancha - in that case, your word is only good if you personally certify it. In your case that is good enough for me.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

Despite deducer's derisive assertion......"I'm happy you quickly pounced on the book when it went on sale. Mine is still on the way." My copy of the Seegesser letters is not the new one. This one was published in 2012 by Albrecht Classen. It would appear he is the one who "pounced" on the new one. I commend him for that, as you can never have enough books.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Mastiff4me]

Roy, Despite deducer's derisive assertion......"I'm happy you quickly pounced on the book when it went on sale. Mine is still on the way." My copy of the Seegesser letters is not the new one. This one was published in 2012. It would appear he is the one who "pounced" on the new one. I commend him for that, as you can never have enough books. Take care, Joe

. Howdy, Joe. Speaking of books, I believe yours should arrive in the mail today! Let me know if it got there, okay?

 

[cactusjumper]

. Howdy, Joe. Speaking of books, I believe yours should arrive in the mail today! Let me know if it got there, okay?

Jody,

I received it yesterday. Started reading it and it looks interesting and well written. Many, many thanks.

Hope all is well with you and your family.

Thanks again, and take care,

Joe

 

[deducer]

Roy,

Despite deducer's derisive assertion......"I'm happy you quickly pounced on the book when it went on sale. Mine is still on the way." My copy of the Seegesser letters is not the new one. This one was published in 2012 by Albrecht Classen. It would appear he is the one who "pounced" on the new one. I commend him for that, as you can never have enough books.

Take care,

Joe

It appears that you are the one in error. The book you claim to have is not the same one I am referring to. The book you have is this:

The Letters of the Swiss Jesuit Missionary Philipp Segesser (1689?1762): An Eyewitness to the Settlement of Eighteenth-Century Sonora (Pimería Alta) | Arizona Center for Medieval and Renaissance Studies

edited by Albrecht Classen, UA.

The book to which I referred to, and cited, is this:

A Jesuit Missionary in Eighteenth-Century Sonora: The Family Correspondence of Philipp Segesser: Raymond H. Thompson, Werner S. Zimmt, Robert E. Dahlquist: 9780826354242: Amazon.com: Books

edited by Raymond H. Thompson and translated by Werner Zimmt and Robert Dahlquist. This book is much more comprehensive (at 376 pages) and contains a more contemporary and correct translation of Fr. Segesser's family correspondences, which contain more revealing details as those were letters mailed outside the Jesuit mail system, IIRC.

 

[cactusjumper]

It appears that you are the one in error. The book you claim to have is not the same one I am referring to. The book you have is this:

The Letters of the Swiss Jesuit Missionary Philipp Segesser (1689?1762): An Eyewitness to the Settlement of Eighteenth-Century Sonora (Pimería Alta) | Arizona Center for Medieval and Renaissance Studies

edited by Albrecht Classen, UA.

The book to which I referred to, and cited, is this:

A Jesuit Missionary in Eighteenth-Century Sonora: The Family Correspondence of Philipp Segesser: Raymond H. Thompson, Werner S. Zimmt, Robert E. Dahlquist: 9780826354242: Amazon.com: Books

edited by Raymond H. Thompson and translated by Werner Zimmt and Robert Dahlquist. This book is much more comprehensive (at 376 pages) and contains a more contemporary and correct translation of Fr. Segesser's family correspondences, which contain more revealing details as those were letters mailed outside the Jesuit mail system, IIRC.

deducer,

You are overanxious to prove me wrong.

"My copy of the Seegesser letters is not the new one. This one was published in 2012 by Albrecht Classen."

Being so hasty makes for mistakes. Just slow down a little. I will make enough mistakes on my own.

Joe Ribaudo