kokapelli pendant?

[GatorBoy]

This came from a site that had occupation from middle archaic all the way through contact. I determined it to be a lead pendant with some help from the local Historical Society. They had none in their database that matched the shape of this one exactly. They did have two examples found on an early Spanish shipwreck that had the same form of construction. I posted earlier today in the "what is it" forum... the second reply was " It looks like kokapelli" After a little research I must say I agree. I was hoping someone might have some more information or know where another example is.

 

[GatorBoy]

I was honestly thanking you. You asked a pertinent question with a thought process that would lead to answers. I hope for those... that IS why I posted. Its the one sentence comments with no direction that grate on the person looking for help with something. I've been seeing alot of people getting to the point of not bothering to post..or in some cases even log on lately.

 

[GatorBoy]

Artifact or dropped lead, there is no need to insult the forum....

I apologise for that... I could have worded that differently.... " this Thread" at that point "was becoming tiresome to me"

 

[old digger]

I do not see in my honest and truthful judgment any purposeful and intentional design. I would think that whomever would have poured the lead into a continuous even flow mold (same thickness throughout), even if they didn't finish removing the excess along the edge. I am just trying to be helpful and share my insight towards your find Gator.

 

[Tnmountains]

Well you posted it in the What is it forum I think? You took it to professors and you posted it here. Sometimes we never get an answer. I never got one on the last point I posted here. Speculation only. If you want we can lock the thread for you. I would not do that as one day someone may see it and provide the answer you seek. If you watch the Today finds sections tons of civil war lead is posted as bears,finials and such much carved led though. Carved by soldiers being a key word. I say let it run its course you have a million interest and come back to this fresh. Just my humble opinion.

 

[GatorBoy]

Thanks. I am planning a trip to the local Historical Society museum in the near future where I remember seeing lead pendants of the same odd look of little discs. They had them with the Spanish shipwreck artifacts. I will see what I can find out. Thank you guys.

 

[Tnmountains]

Thank you for the thread! Take pics and share.

 

[GatorBoy]

I will

 

[SOHIO]

That's funny! I mention led to you last week and, wallakazam.... We have lead! Funny the way that works. It has happened to me like that before too. Let's talk about Clovis points strictly from now on!!!

Heck with that lets talk about swiss bank accounts and lamborghinis

 

[NC field hunter]

Heck with that lets talk about swiss bank accounts and lamborghinis

Lol! I don't know, but I've been told, it's hard to run with the weight of gold. Other hand I've heard it said, it's just as hard with the weight if lead. Words by the late but great Jerry Garcia!!

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

I was honestly thanking you. You asked a pertinent question with a thought process that would lead to answers. I hope for those... that IS why I posted. Its the one sentence comments with no direction that grate on the person looking for help with something. I've been seeing alot of people getting to the point of not bothering to post..or in some cases even log on lately.

I have seen just the opposite, seen a lot more people posting with quality posts, even some that haven't been here in awhile...

 

[Harry Pristis]

Allow me to point out that Occam's Razor ("among competing explanations, the simplest explanation is the best.") produces a bias toward the musket balls in a campfire explanation.

The MBCampfire explanation answers all the questions:
=>The nine (maybe ten) balls started off at the same caliber, but there was some melt and flow.
=>The rounded shapes are the form, if not the size of the original balls.
=>The round shapes are retained on one side better than the other because one side was on the substrate (earth), therefor remained slightly cooler than the side facing the fire.
=>The balls are grouped because they were held together initially in a bullet pouch.
=>They remained on - and eventually in - the ground for perhaps 150 years, taking on an oxidized finish.

I know that Gaboy feels like we're grinding a heel into his highly romantic hypothesis, but we are only being scientific. Science is open to new evidence and new interpretations; but, as Carl Sagan said, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

 

[GatorBoy]

Very well stated. The only problem with parts of that is.. the fact that there is evidence of some type of pattern on both sides whether random or not. The pouch theory would gather material towards the center and there is marks on what would have been lower surfaces adjoining higher surfaces that would be impossible had it been from something it was lieing on. The second image is of the opposite side. It is simply impossible to do this by melting spheres of lead. As far as being scientific and using the word "we" you should put me on the top of that list in this particular thread. Since I have been the one providing the evidence and info. Also the term "Romantic" the way you have just decided to use it is a not so very tactful passive aggressive stab that should have been worded differently. I.M.O. also... who did you mean by "we" and what did you mean by "scientific "? since I am the only one with a shred of evidence to support my theory. Mabey your science requires no evidence? Mabey you have "romanced" yourself into being a scientist. I think that follows the guidline of the simplest theory being correct. Don't you think?

 

[GatorBoy]

I will provide further evidence against the musket ball theory. First off..there is no lead shot the size that would be necessary to accomplish this by melting together in a pouch... these are from the same site.. at a shallower level I should point out. I put them together so you can see how they would not produce this.



Is it just me or is everyone missing the fact that there is a broken loop on the top?

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

You could spend the $20-$40 and send it in to a reputable authenticator and have it authenticated, you would know then, it is impossible to tell beyond all doubt from a picture on the internet. To me it looks like melted lead but that doesn't mean I am right...

 

[GatorBoy]

I get the hint.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

I get the hint.

What hint? My reply was sincere. You can't authentic something from a picture on a website, many times you can't even tell what something is from picture on website.

 

[SOHIO]

I didn't read through all of this post but i suppose their is dilemma...I'm just gonna say what i personally think and of course im not saying for sure cause im an idiot ...but to me it seems as if the round spots of the pc were droppings as i have circled and the arrows show where the lead oozed from the round droppings...maybe they helped the ooze into a kokapelli pendant ?

 

[SOHIO]

noticing how these three splotches are hex shaped

 

[SOHIO]

could it be someone was molding something that was hex shaped

 

[rock]

Thanks. I am planning a trip to the local Historical Society museum in the near future where I remember seeing lead pendants of the same odd look of little discs. They had them with the Spanish shipwreck artifacts. I will see what I can find out. Thank you guys.

When you go take your camera I would like to see those. I dont get out much.