kokapelli pendant?

[GatorBoy]

This came from a site that had occupation from middle archaic all the way through contact. I determined it to be a lead pendant with some help from the local Historical Society. They had none in their database that matched the shape of this one exactly. They did have two examples found on an early Spanish shipwreck that had the same form of construction. I posted earlier today in the "what is it" forum... the second reply was " It looks like kokapelli" After a little research I must say I agree. I was hoping someone might have some more information or know where another example is.

 

[Get-the-point]

To be honest looking at it again i'm starting to see a SeaHorse in this design..........................Chris

 

[releventchair]

During french isolation some lead was cast (crosses one form) in area between upper and lower mi. in an attempt to maintain trade.
While your find looks crude some one could have been trying their hand at it?
Don,t take offence at opinions,they are just that. H.H.

 

[rginn]

Well, I'm gonna say it was cast in some form or fashion, intentionally or unintentionally I couldn't really say. Kinda looks like it was meant to represent something though. If that was a splatter which fell on the ground while casting bullets, which might have been hard to come by, well I spect you would pick that up and re-melt it. As to the Kokapelli thing or hump backed flute player, it has been my theory that that represents a trader, the 'hump' being a pack on his back. Trade was wide-spread across various nations. He might have played the flute as a signal when he approached villages, to let people know he was a trader. It would have been a bad thing to kill a trader, cause word would get out and no more would come. No more obsidian for you guys in SW Oklahoma. Although it's popular in 'southwestern art', you usually see this figure in petroglyphs, and I supposed this might mean 'the trader stops here' or 'this is a trade route'. I never wondered about Kokapelli searching for a mate, I suppose a one night stand would be better suited for the travellin man, and he probably got laid as often as any travellin salesman. Cool and interesting find.

 

[GatorBoy]

There is alot of documention that states precisely your back pack and flute interpretation. There is also writing on Kokapelli Taking on a more incect like appearance in the Mississippian culture of the southeast. Even some descriptions of a woman like figure. Thank you for taking the time to add your input.

 

[Get-the-point]

I'm going to venture another guess..... it looks like a Praying Mantis. Back showing the termination of the wings, head with antennae and arms back part is rear part of abdomen...................

 

[rock]

now don't get ticked at me but that sure looks like it is spilled melted lead
possibly from someone casting bullets or...
.....if it was found by the water likely from someone pouring lead fishing sinkers or jigs
reminds me of what is laying around my melting pot when i am done making jigs and sinkers which i take and throw back in the melting pot

I know Larson knows these types of artifacts and I would tend to agree with him. Thanks, Larson

 

[GatorBoy]

I know Larson knows these types of artifacts and I would tend to agree with him. Thanks, Larson

Ooook.. thank you for your expertice. It is valued.

 

[Harry Pristis]

now don't get ticked at me but that sure looks like it is spilled melted lead
possibly from someone casting bullets or...
.....if it was found by the water likely from someone pouring lead fishing sinkers or jigs
reminds me of what is laying around my melting pot when i am done making jigs and sinkers which i take and throw back in the melting pot

I agree with Larson1951, this appears to be lead shot (or sinkers) that have been melted and fused together. Lead has such a low melting point that a carelessly dropped pouch of lead balls could have produced this object in a campfire 150 years ago. Or, it could be last year's lead sinkers.

Kokopeli is a SW native legend:
Many people are only vaguely famdliar with the Native American image of Kokopeli. His image is found as
a petroglyph (carved in rock) from Casa Grande, Mexico, to the Hopi and Rio Grande pueblos and then
westward to the California deserts. The images vary considerably, but he is generally depicted as a
hunchback and usually playing a flute.

The figure has also been found in pit house ruins dated as early as 200 AD. As with all legends, there
exists an array of tales animating Kokopeli. His purpose or mission remains unclear, but his reputation
does not. Known to some as a magician, others know him as a storyteller, teacher, healer, trickster, or
god of the harvest. Kokopeli, with his hunchback and flute, was always welcome.

 

[GatorBoy]

Thanks Harry. If you read Wikipedia ..and I know you do..It specifically mentions the appearance of Kokapelli in the southeast united states during the Mississippian culture period. It also describes his possible origin in Mexico which just happens to be where alot of the Spanish Treasure fleet ships were coming from when they wrecked on the Florida coast.

 

[GatorBoy]

As far as spilled lead goes... I don't think any of you have any idea how many jig heads and sinkers I have molded. Offshore fishing in Florida has been a passion of mine for decades. I seriously doubt anyone who has responded even Larson Has made as many. Have your opinions... It has become rather mediocre around here.

 

[Get-the-point]

I agree with Larson1951, this appears to be lead shot (or sinkers) that have been melted and fused together. Lead has such a low melting point that a carelessly dropped pouch of lead balls could have produced this object in a campfire 150 years ago. Or, it could be last year's lead sinkers.

Kokopeli is a SW native legend:
Many people are only vaguely famdliar with the Native American image of Kokopeli. His image is found as
a petroglyph (carved in rock) from Casa Grande, Mexico, to the Hopi and Rio Grande pueblos and then
westward to the California deserts. The images vary considerably, but he is generally depicted as a
hunchback and usually playing a flute.

The figure has also been found in pit house ruins dated as early as 200 AD. As with all legends, there
exists an array of tales animating Kokopeli. His purpose or mission remains unclear, but his reputation
does not. Known to some as a magician, others know him as a storyteller, teacher, healer, trickster, or
god of the harvest. Kokopeli, with his hunchback and flute, was always welcome.

I'm inclined to disagree. This is clearly molded and not slag as a couple would believe. No matter how many times a piece of slag drops it will never form that perfect circle in the center and top on that arm. Let's pull in the theory of a couple of already made jig weights and sinkers. So there laying there and a piece of hot lead falls and hits them. Not once several times. Do you think the splatter would ever form a pattern such as this. I would have to say no. Now look at the back in the one photo, look how it has marks on what appears to be a wing(that's what I see) along the outer edge. Perfect little streaks....you see this on most molded pieces. I believe this piece was molded into a crude shape and kind of looks like a preying mantis. This is my opinion but i'm seeing what gator see's on this one. Sorry Steve, Rock and Harry it is not adding up to your thoughts on this............................

 

[Tnmountains]

One question and I know you know about lead. Patina?

 

[GatorBoy]

Very good question.... low oxygen bog. There was a. Spanish fort in the 17th century followed by a second Seminole war fort in the early 19th century both proceed by a long native occupation at the same site. It is quite challenging and astounding. Here are some photos from the site.

 

[GatorBoy]

 

[Tnmountains]

Gotcha. High acidity from say pines will do the same with my lead civil war finds. Was it formed on the ground or sand? They were so fascinated with metals it makes sense they would try and make items from it. So it was spanish lead? They held on to old ways with new materials showing up. You see than with your glass arrowheads.

 

[old digger]

Got a question. What does the other side look like? And when I zoomed in on your first photo, I see a space in this area. It looks like it is not all one piece. Just being speculative.

 

[GatorBoy]

I posted because I do not know its origin. I've become very good at doing the necessary research to place most items into the category they belong... but this one is very difficult. Also thank you for addind to this discussion a good question. Even if your just humoring me as far as it not being random melted little balls of lead.

 

[GatorBoy]

Got a question. What does the other side look like? And when I zoomed in on your first photo, I see a space in this area. It looks like it is not all one piece. Just being speculative.

<img src="http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=712552"/>

Its cracked where you circled it. I almost broke it when cleaning off mud. I think I posted both sides But for the sake of convenience I will post one of each side now. There are patterns on both sides. You can see some oxidation around the crack.

 

[Tnmountains]

Gator I am not humoring anyone not as much as I used to.

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/todays-finds/63507-real-fake.html

But that being said we all seek to learn. What you find is not the same as what I find and visa versa. That is why we have these good discussions. You have done your research. If you did not want opinions you would not have put a question mark on your title. No one wants to have to defend an item that may be common or acceptable to them and uncommon to others. I do not have enough knowledge to form an opinion so I started with the obvious to me patina and then the source of the artifact/relic (spanish lead) and the thought process of the interaction of old ideas and new materials. That was my thought process. Is it a relic of spilt lead or an artifact formed by man.
TnMtns

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Are you kidding me? I must say this forum is becoming tiresome.

As far as spilled lead goes... I don't think any of you have any idea how many jig heads and sinkers I have molded. Offshore fishing in Florida has been a passion of mine for decades. I seriously doubt anyone who has responded even Larson Has made as many. Have your opinions... It has become rather mediocre around here.

Artifact or dropped lead, there is no need to insult the forum....