LDM, OZ, & CALALUS

[cactusjumper]

Joe

You wrote



Maybe you have to read at Ancient Dinosaur Depictions | Genesis Park

Marius,

Good job. I have seen the references before. Best argument for that engraving to date. There are many more problems with the artifacts that remain unexplained. Keep working.

Good luck,

Joe

 

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[Azquester]

During metal detecting I've pulled lead bullet fragments from deep down that have caliche and lime deposits on them making the fragments difficult to identify because of the ancient nature of the patina. Lead seems to attract these sorts of coatings during the aging process.

The fact I've seen a lot of these hardened coatings on bullets tends to make one think the Tucson Artifacts are not as old as the bullets I pull out of the ground looking for gold.

I stuff those trash pieces in my pockets and just found one last night. I threw it in the trash this morning but I'll dig it out and photograph it for a comparison on here tonight with the sword picture posted up. I think the lead artifacts would be degraded badly if they were even 80 years old much less a 1000 years old.

 

[markmar]

Bill

The bullets are exposed to the elements . The Tucson artifacts were not exposed ( because the cement ) in the same degree .

 

[Not Peralta]

Unknown History is just History not known.
The concept of this doesn't fit in for some,the thought of their very way of thinking is threatened, some react defensively,
Its easy to dismiss something you can't see,Its harder to dismiss something you can see.
Example.
Imagine spending years searching and researching something,only to have eyewitnesses come to you and tell you about a group of individuals
in an operation removing objects and different things that took place in the area you were searching, and the eyewitnesses being confronted
and threatened,but,now, every thing you were hunting for is now gone,site destroyed.
this is History known to you,but, now is gone forever,never to be history known,or proven.NP

My point is well proven by the comments of the post.np

 

[Oroblanco]

Joe

You wrote



Maybe you have to read at Ancient Dinosaur Depictions | Genesis Park

Ditto to the words of Cactusjumper - that is the best argument I have seen supporting the Tucson relics as real, and a possible explanation for the dinosaur image. Nice find Marius.

I would like to see some kind of documentation to support the exodus of this colony, from the Old World. It might help also to have some evidence of their presence elsewhere than the one spot where the relics were found. There are some evidences of ancient visitors to America scattered across the continent, but as far as I know, and I have done a bit of research on this topic, all contact from the Mediterranean stops by the first century AD, and only a smattering of Arab and Chinese visitors in the time period when Calalus supposedly existed. I do not buy the Snaketown site as anything related to Calalus, if anything it shows the hallmarks of being related to Aztecs and/or Hohokam.

Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

While it is a good argument for that particular artifact, I doubt the people of Calalus were aware of this evidence. It seems unlikely it would have been of enough importance to include in the mix of engravings.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

While it is a good argument for that particular artifact, I doubt the people of Calalus were aware of this evidence. It seems unlikely it would have been of enough importance to include in the mix of engravings.

Take care,

Joe

I see your point there, it really only addresses the otherwise highly questionable dinosaur image. It does not address the fact that tests showed the lead alloy which the artifacts were made from, was identical to the lead plate alloy in car batteries of the 1920s period. It would be quite a coincidence if some late Roman colonists, should happen to end up with the identical lead alloy used in car batteries fourteen centuries or so later.

I guess what bugs me about the Tucson artifacts is that there really is evidence of ancient visitors - no mass colonies or stone cities, but rare and erratic visits, probably some were purely accidental ocean crossings not done on purpose. This real evidence gets lumped in with a lot of phony stuff like the Cardiff giant or the Vorhee plates, and our historians stick to the Isolation theory which can not be true if there is any evidence of contact at all. I don't have a theory as to why the Tucson artifacts were made, if it was to fool some academics then it succeeded, but to me they are a singular 'island' of artifacts which is a red flag IMHO. There are not even any supporting pieces of evidence like inscriptions left on stone, Roman pottery or coins etc in the same area, and no record of any such exodus from what would have been the Byzantine empire in that time period. There are 'islands' of artifacts for other ancient visitors too, but always in a pattern of such islands not just one site on the entire continent like this is.

Hmm I have to take that back, there is one similar case - chief Joseph of the Nez Perce had a cuneiform (clay) tablet, with Babylonian or Assyrian writing on it, which he told the interviewer had been in his family for generations, so long no one could remember when they first got it. I do not know of any other evidence from Mesopotamia found in the US that could possibly tie in with that, so there is one other instance. However there seemed to be no doubt that clay tablet was the genuine article, while the Tucson artifacts have been a matter of controversy almost from the start and still are. Anyway the clay tablet could have been picked up by a Nez Perce at a shore from a shipwreck, it did not have to be handed to a Nez Perce from the hand of a Babylonian.

Maybe a bigger question is why someone would want people to believe in this story today, even have embellished on the rather short story from the artifacts themselves, like adding on a whole 'library' underground for instance. There has to be a hidden agenda at work there. If it is to sell books, great - heck I will probably buy one, but that does not seem to be the purpose.


Starman - do you have any document(s) from the Byzantine empire that mention this exodus that then founded Calalus and Oz? Or from the records of Moorish Spain, which the fleet of ships would have had to pass through their controlled waters? Thanks in advance.
Oroblanco

 

[Cubfan64]

My point is well proven by the comments of the post.np

I couldn't disagree with you more NP. The majority of people who have "treasure hunting" in their blood are open minded individuals often following the tiniest bits of possible evidence to try to follow up on a lead to find something that the vast majority of people would poo-poo without a second thought. Most of us are willing and even hope and wish for the impossible (or at least improbable) to be proven to be fact one day if for no other reason that to "stick it" to those who made fun of us for our dreams.

Along with that "childlike" desire to see the improbable become probable however, most of us have that analytical side of our brain that needs to be persuaded by factual evidence - it's all a balancing act. One person's "facts" are another persons loose guesswork or fanciful wishes - it works that way with the LDM just like it does with Calalus and "Oz" and some of the other stories that have surfaced around all this.

It's funny when you think about it that you would argue the point you did and suggest some of the stories you suggest, but give absolutely zero credence to the LDM stories - in some people's eyes, there's as much evidence for one as there is the other (or lack thereof in both cases).

I would love nothing more than to see "Oz" and all the stories surrounding it come to life, but that ball has been out of my court for almost 2 years now and being as far away physically from AZ as I am, I can't just hop in my jeep and spend a few days exploring every other weekend the way I'd like in order to search for the evidence I personally want to see. The vague hints and references, puzzling comments and assorted discussions that I've seen and/or been a part of for 7+ years hasn't resulted in what I hoped it would. I've often wondered if the whole purpose of "Oz" was to provide an adult "adventure" for those of us who've spent too many years behind a desk and long to be the next Hiram Bingham. I'm not sure, but maybe the "journey" was what the whole story is all about.

 

[Not Peralta]

It looks like you will need a lot of Before every one gets their feathers in an uproar. You need to go back and read the post that started this
whole conversation.
post #160, Legend of the Stone Maps. from the very beginning this post was taken completely out of context.
I give an honest opinion concerning the two finds, the post was taken completely out of context for some one elses
convenience ,my true message of the two were lost. that's why I said ,my point is well proven by the comments of
the posts. NP

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Lost tribe of Israel, migration across the Med, stay for a part of the time at the remains of Atlantis on the coast of Spain (Azatlan), then on to the new world, Across the new world to present Arizona, then gradually worked their way down to Mecico city (Aztecs)leaving a string of Jewish words behind them.

Line forms on the right.

 

[Not Peralta]

Real, Amigo,
have some that's one reason why over the years there were a lot of in the closet Jewish Mexicans, and this has been going on for a long time.
One reason why some maps have surfaced is because the Mexicans were inheriting maps from the Spanish, when the Spanish were in south America they
found out about different kinds of rich's ,that's how the Jesuits became involved,every one was following some ones trail.you are correct,In history,
the line does start at the right. have a good holiday weekend.NP

 

[cactusjumper]

Lost tribe of Israel, migration across the Med, stay for a part of the time at the remains of Atlantis on the coast of Spain (Azatlan), then on to the new world, Across the new world to present Arizona, then gradually worked their way down to Mecico city (Aztecs)leaving a string of Jewish words behind them.

Line forms on the right.

Don Jose,

Can you give us an example of these Jewish/Mexican words?

Thanks,


Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Lost tribe of Israel, migration across the Med, stay for a part of the time at the remains of Atlantis on the coast of Spain (Azatlan), then on to the new world, Across the new world to present Arizona, then gradually worked their way down to Mecico city (Aztecs)leaving a string of Jewish words behind them.

Line forms on the right.

Interesting theory, but doesn't the huge time gap raise a problem to link this idea to Calalus? It is over 1000 years time span between the diaspora of the ten lost tribes to the supposed date of Calalus. Are you proposing that is how long it took them to migrate? How did the Calalus colonists come to speak and write in Latin if they trekked out of Israel in 587 BC when Rome was a small town subject to the Etruscans?

Then there is the problem of those loan words being absolutely traced to Jewish or Hebrew origins - as you know all of the Semitic languages are fairly similar, one group whom were neighbors spoke a very similar language and were known as the greatest seafarers in the world in their day, while the Hebrews had to hire those neighbors to help them build ships and navigate the seas when they wished to go voyaging. Can we be SURE that any loan words that look Hebrew, are not another Semitic language? The supposed ancient Jewish coins found in Kentucky proved to be modern (1800s) vintage. Can you reconcile the huge time gap and show how the loan words are clearly Hebrew but not Phoenician or Akkadian? Thanks in advance;
Oroblanco

 

[markmar]

I have read here DNA Consultants Blog how the Cherokee Indians have Greek origin in their DNA and have also many Greek words in their language .

 

[cactusjumper]

Similar and "loan" words are not that uncommon........all over the world. It's not always easy to explain. Other things, like pyramids, first appeared in South America prior to those found in Egypt.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[sdcfia]

The reason for the Jewish "loan words" in Mexico is fairly well-known - Jews were either forced to abandon their faith and convert to Catholicism in early 16th century Spain, or face expulsion. Many kept the faith, albeit hidden, and migrated to Mexico. They are known today as the "Crypto Jews". Recent DNA research has even located pockets of Crypto Jews in northern New Mexico and in the San Luis Valley of southern Colorado. These bands left Mexico quite early for the Northern Frontier.

 

[cactusjumper]

sdcfia,

That is true, but there seems to be an effort to tie the Jewish bloodline to the story of Calalus. Wrong era.

Take care,

Joe

 

[sdcfia]

sdcfia,

That is true, but there seems to be an effort to tie the Jewish bloodline to the story of Calalus. Wrong era.

Take care,

Joe

I generally support, in theory anyway, a diffusionist view of New World human history. Unfortunately, most of the evidence provided so far consists of anomalous texts, out of place artifacts, magnificent architectural ruins and creative oral traditions - none of which are supported by enough corroborating evidence to build a convincing enough pattern to be acceptable by most observers. Not enough traction. Too many missing links in the evidence chain. Too much we don't know.

The Story of Calalus? Notwithstanding the artifact controversy, the story - at least the recent Superstitions-based Oz thing presented on Tnet - reminds me in a way how L Ron Hubbard dreamed up a new cosmic human history back when he was a hack science fiction writer in the 1950's. I hope the guy who came up with the Oz story writes a book. It might be fun.

 

[cactusjumper]

I generally support, in theory anyway, a diffusionist view of New World human history. Unfortunately, most of the evidence provided so far consists of anomalous texts, out of place artifacts, magnificent architectural ruins and creative oral traditions - none of which are supported by enough corroborating evidence to build a convincing enough pattern to be acceptable by most observers. Not enough traction. Too many missing links in the evidence chain. Too much we don't know.

The Story of Calalus? Notwithstanding the artifact controversy, the story - at least the recent Superstitions-based Oz thing presented on Tnet - reminds me in a way how L Ron Hubbard dreamed up a new cosmic human history back when he was a hack science fiction writer in the 1950's. I hope the guy who came up with the Oz story writes a book. It might be fun.

sdcfia,

I been waiting for Ben's book for quite a few years now. I kept telling him he owed me a copy of the first edition, signed, because he used so many of my posts to add weight to his stories. Kind of reverse engineering his "evidence".

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Oro, Joe, etc, I hate you, now I have to go through my disorganized notes