Ledge of Gold in the Superstitions

[nobodie]

To the right but not in this picture is a light shaded circle, next to the circle is a light shaded heart. Under the circle and heart is a boulder and a light shaded arrow pointing to the boulder. As you move down canyon farther away from the priest or witch the heart turns into an upside down horse shoe. I don't believe it can seen in the grainy picture but Right In front of the P or W is someone sitting in a possible throne with his legs crossed. On each side of the person is a head and a partial body maybe advisors. In the original good pictures you could see everything. With out them I can't prove it, and I'm not going to take anyone there. RYANO bad picture, good eye. I'm glad that you saw it.

 

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[somehiker]

I see a witch or "Jesuit"

View attachment 1483316


could be pareidolia or it could be the work of a dozen or so Jesuit craftsmen.. as some are fond of believing they sculpted the mountains of the Southwest

Seems you've got a worse case of this "pareidolia" infection than I do Ryano. I couldn't see that at all and it's too bad the photo is so blurry, because it might be a regular "Rembrandt of the Rocks" or maybe a "Michelangelo on the Mountain", worth millions in it's own right.

 

[EarnieP]

Nice catch of the 'Witch' Ryano.

Now that you point that out I can also see;

1. A large 'Spaniel kissing the Witch's ear',
2. A 'sitting dwarf' or full bodied 'Quanto' (from Total Recall, I think that was the name),
3. The head of an Indian chief with a full feathered head-dress.
4. A praying Conquistador(?), leaned over with hands clasped.
And on and on...

I'd outline them, but don't think I have a program for doing that anymore. (what's a good free program for that?)

That pareidolia is contagious!

 

[somehiker]

I use this .....IrfanView - Official Homepage - one of the most popular viewers worldwide

the free version is limited, but it's all I've ever needed.

Randy pointed me to it a few years ago....

 

[EarnieP]

Thanks SH, I'll check that out.

Don't know what happened to my old program. I think it was some kind of simplified photo shop.
Not on my computer anymore for some reason. Might have been on another older one and I just forgot?
Happening a lot lately.

Then again sometimes my spousal half deletes stuff 'she doesn't like'.
Still miss my old Pro-Write! (Guess I was the only one in North America that liked it, know I was the only one in the house.)

 

[gollum]

Nobodie,

Although I have always believed in Jesuit Treasures, I have also always been very careful to say that I IN NO WAY believe Jesuits ever murdered anybody to keep them secret. They may have treated their wards poorly (overworked and insulted), but you would have a hard road to hoe convincing me (or most other knowledgable people) that members of a group of people willing to give their lives in the service of God would murder dozens of innocent Indians in to keep secret any material wealth.

It is faaaaaaaar more likely that they may have used fire and brimstone scary issuances of eternal threats of hell and damnation if the Indians ever revealed their secrets. THAT, the Church does all the time to all their members. Hahaha

Mike

 

[nobodie]

I have no problem in believing that humans will kill in the name of God. Whether to protect their godly property or to take someone else's property that they claim belongs to God. I don't go into deep discussions to try to convince anyone of my opinions. If I really know where treasure is I'm not telling the Jesuits. In my OPINION it don't belong to them any more.

 

[gollum]

I have no problem in believing that humans will kill in the name of God. Whether to protect their godly property or to take someone else's property that they claim belongs to God. I don't go into deep discussions to try to convince anyone of my opinions. If I really know where treasure is I'm not telling the Jesuits. In my OPINION it don't belong to them any more.

Thinking like that completely disregards the main reason for them keeping the wealth a secret from the Spanish/French/Portuguese in the first place:

If the wealth made it into the Royal Coffers, it would have gone into any one of the several wars being fought among those nations. They would have rathered the wealth they found go to doing God's Work, and not wars for territory. Remember, a King or Queen derived their Divine Rights to rule from God. God trumps Kings.

Mike

If you were talking about competing religions, you may have a more amenable audience, but Jesuits looked at Indians as children. Children ignorant of the Word of God. That is why conversions of Indians was such a huge priority. In the eyes of the Catholics, people ignorant of God's Word were still guilty of original sin, and would go to Hell. If they accepted conversion and later renounced religion, then all bets are off. They would have been treated as heretics.

See, this is another one of those places where a knowledge of true history comes in handy when researching Treasure Stories.

 

[sailaway]

From the Spanish history book, NICOLÁS COPERNICO Spanish History

Fray Bartolome de Las Casas managed to be heard before the Council of the Indies, and apparently, their complaints on the situation of American Indians impressed the emperor. On 20 November they are known as enacted new laws prohibiting the granting of new parcels. In addition, an encomendero dying, his charges should automatically pass to the Crown. In addition they are prohibiting slavery and established that no one could be forced to work against their will. The Indians were obliged only to pay moderate taxes, which indirectly forced them to work to have money to pay their taxes.
At this time, Las Casas finished his A Short Account of the Destruction of the Indies , in which he accused the Spaniards of all kinds of crimes, abuses and outrages against the Indians. For example, the following passage refers to the early years of occupation of Spanish:

After finished the wars and deaths in them, all men, often leaving the young men and women and children, they divided among each other, giving one thirty, another forty to one hundred and two hundred (according to the grace that each reached with the greatest tyrant, who said governor). And so scattered, every dábanselos Christian with this color: that teach the things of the Catholic faith, being commonly all idiots and cruel, and vicious men avarísimos, making cures souls. And the cure or care that Dellos had was to send men to the mines to extract gold, which is intolerable work, and women put in the rooms, which are farms, digging the crops and cultivate the land, work for strong men and tough. They did not give one or the other eat but weeds and things that had no substance; secábaseles milk tits to postpartum women, and they died soon all creatures. And be husbands sections, which never saw women ceased including generation; They died in the mines, works and hunger, and them in the rooms or farms of the same, and so ran so much and such multitudes of people of that land; and so he could have finished all the world. Say loads casting them three and four Kilos, and had a hundred and two hundred leagues (and Christians themselves were made out in hammocks, which are like networks, go to bed Indians), because they used always Dellos as beasts to load . They had sores on his shoulders and backs, loads, as very slain beasts;

Do you think COPERNICUS knew what was going on?
Las Casas directly accuses the teachers of Catholic Faith, which I read as the Priest themselves killed the Indians that were in their care by over work and starvation. The priest were carried about in hammocks by the Indians who were dying around them by the thousands. Not just Dozens.

University of Valencia, Spain
https://www.uv.es/ivorra/Historia/SXVI/1537.htm

 

[sdcfia]

Ah, the apologetic rationalizations of good Catholics in defense of the actions of the Church. I tend to rely on my own lying eyes.

 

[cactusjumper]

From the Spanish history book, NICOLÁS COPERNICO Spanish History

Do you think COPERNICUS knew what was going on?
Las Casas directly accuses the teachers of Catholic Faith, which I read as the Priest themselves killed the Indians that were in their care by over work and starvation. The priest were carried about in hammocks by the Indians who were dying around them by the thousands. Not just Dozens.

University of Valencia, Spain
https://www.uv.es/ivorra/Historia/SXVI/1537.htm

sailaway,

I would suggest you read some other views of the Jesuits to help form your opinion. "Not Counting the Cost" by John J. Martinez, S.J. would be helpful.

Thanks for the link,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[gollum]

Do I believe that Jesuits overworked their charges? Absolutely! But no more so than they overworked themselves. As Joe said, read some more of Jesuit History before casting aspersions on the Order. Do I believe they starved their charges? Not at all.

Nobodie,

If the mass murder part of those stories were true, then why, at the sites of recovered Jesuit Treasures, were there no skeletons (i.e. Rio de Janeiro or Ron Quinn's Site)? No, the murdered Indians aspect makes the story much spookier, but has zero basis in fact or history.

Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Do I believe that Jesuits overworked their charges? Absolutely! But no more so than they overworked themselves. As Joe said, read some more of Jesuit History before casting aspersions on the Order. Do I believe they starved their charges? Not at all.

Nobodie,

If the mass murder part of those stories were true, then why, at the sites of recovered Jesuit Treasures, were there no skeletons (i.e. Rio de Janeiro or Ron Quinn's Site)? No, the murdered Indians aspect makes the story much spookier, but has zero basis in fact or history.

Mike

Mike,

Believe you are right on! Native Americans, like us whities, get cranky when hungry.

Take care,

Joe

 

[sailaway]

The Price Indians paid for Christianity
The Taino genocide (1492-1518) is where the Spanish wiped out most of the Tainos (Arawaks), the native people of the northern Caribbean (present-day Cuba, Jamaica, Haiti, Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico, Bahamas, etc). Columbus himself set it in motion and oversaw it till 1500. In just two years under Columbus Governorship through murder, mutilation, being worked to death or suicide more than half the Indians in Hispaniola were dead. Between 1496 and 1508 more than three million people died from war, slavery and the mines. Most were already dead when smallpox arrived in 1516. By then only 12,000 remained, and within a few years the Indians were all dead, in total an estimated 8,000,000 natives. It is no exaggeration to say he is guilty of genocide
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/09/20/the-taino-genocide/
This ignorance is an artifact of historical silencing—rendering invisible the lives and stories of entire Indian peoples.
Christopher Columbus - American Indian Genocide
https://www.commondreams.org/views/2012/10/06/rethinking-columbus-towards-true-peoples-history

Girolamo Benzoni (1519-1570) was an Italian from Milan who spent the years 1541-1556 in the New World. His observations of Spanish imperialism were published in 1565 in La Historia del Mondo Nuovo.

Due to Bartolome de Las Casas’s writings (even his writing to the Pope), the brutalities to the Indians were not as high of an occurrence as they were before. “Bartolomé de Las Casas, the Spanish priest, historian and advocate for Native American rights, was born in Seville. As a young man, he practiced law for a short time, but, like so many other enterprising young men of his day, he went to the New World in search of new opportunities.
Bartolome De Las Casas - The Black Legend            Project

Lies my Teacher Told Me
by James Lowen who discusses why it is even known the myth and so few people know the historical truth.

The Other Slavery: The Uncovered Story of Indian Enslavement in America
by Andrés Reséndez

An American Genocide: The United States and the California Indian Catastrophe, 1846–1873
by Benjamin Madley

Indians, Slaves, and Mass Murder: The Hidden History | by Peter Nabokov | The New York Review of Books

 

[cactusjumper]

The Price Indians paid for Christianity
The Taino genocide (1492-1518) is where the Spanish wiped out most of the Tainos (Arawaks), the native people of the northern Caribbean (present-day Cuba, Jamaica, Haiti, Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico, Bahamas, etc). Columbus himself set it in motion and oversaw it till 1500. In just two years under Columbus Governorship through murder, mutilation, being worked to death or suicide more than half the Indians in Hispaniola were dead. Between 1496 and 1508 more than three million people died from war, slavery and the mines. Most were already dead when smallpox arrived in 1516. By then only 12,000 remained, and within a few years the Indians were all dead, in total an estimated 8,000,000 natives. It is no exaggeration to say he is guilty of genocide
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/09/20/the-taino-genocide/
This ignorance is an artifact of historical silencing—rendering invisible the lives and stories of entire Indian peoples.
Christopher Columbus - American Indian Genocide
https://www.commondreams.org/views/2012/10/06/rethinking-columbus-towards-true-peoples-history
Girolamo Benzoni (1519-1570) was an Italian from Milan who spent the years 1541-1556 in the New World. His observations of Spanish imperialism were published in 1565 in La Historia del Mondo Nuovo.
Due to Bartolome de Las Casas’s writings (even his writing to the Pope), the brutalities to the Indians were not as high of an occurrence as they were before. “Bartolomé de Las Casas, the Spanish priest, historian and advocate for Native American rights, was born in Seville. As a young man, he practiced law for a short time, but, like so many other enterprising young men of his day, he went to the New World in search of new opportunities.
Bartolome De Las Casas - The Black Legend* * * * * * Project
__________________________________________________


You did some selective editing there. Give the man some credit for eventually doing some good for the natives:


[Not until his fortieth year did Las Casas experience a moral conversion, perhaps the awakening of a dormant sensitivity as a result of the horrors he saw about him. His early efforts at the Spanish court were largely directed at securing approval for the establishment of model colonies in which Spanish farmers would live and labor side by side with Indians in a peaceful coexistence that would gently lead the natives to Christianity and Christian civilization. The disastrous failure of one such project on the coast of Venezuela (1521) caused Las Casas to retire for 10 years to a monastery and to enter the Dominican order. He had greater success with an experiment in peaceful conversion of the Indians in the province of Tezulutlán—called by the Spaniards the Land of War—in Guatemala (1537-1540).
Las Casas appeared to have won a brilliant victory with the promulgation of the New Laws of 1542. These laws banned Indian slavery, prohibited Indian forced labor, and provided for gradual abolition of the encomienda system, which held the Indians living on agricultural lands in serfdom. Faced with revolt by the encomenderos in Peru and the threat of revolt elsewhere, however, the Crown made a partial retreat, repealing the provisions most objectionable to the colonists. It was against this background that Las Casas met Juan Ginés de Sepúlveda, defender of the encomienda and of Indian wars, in a famous debate at Valladolid in 1550. Sepúlveda, a disciple of Aristotle, invoked his theory that some men are slaves by nature in order to show that the Indians must be made to serve the Spaniards for their own good as well as for that of their masters. The highest point of Las Casas' argument was an eloquent affirmation of the equality of all races, the essential oneness of mankind.
To the end of a long life Las Casas fought passionately for justice for his beloved Indians. As part of his campaign in their defense, he wrote numerous tracts and books. The world generally knows him best for his flaming indictment of Spanish cruelty to the Indians, Brief Account of the Destruction of the Indies (1552), a work based largely on official reports to the Crown and soon translated into the major European languages. Historians regard most highly his Historia de las Indias, which is indispensable to every student of the first phase of the Spanish conquest. His Apologética historia de las Indias is an immense accumulation of ethnographic data designed to demonstrate that the Indians fully met the requirements laid down by Aristotle for the good life.]

Like I said......It wouldn't hurt to do some further reading, even in your own link.
_____________________________________________________________

Lies my Teacher Told Me
by James Lowen who discusses why it is even known the myth and so few people know the historical truth.
The Other Slavery: The Uncovered Story of Indian Enslavement in America
by Andrés Reséndez
An American Genocide: The United States and the California Indian Catastrophe, 1846–1873
by Benjamin Madley
Indians, Slaves, and Mass Murder: The*Hidden History | by Peter Nabokov | The New York Review of Books

sailaway,
___________________________________________________________


It's old news that people were very cruel in those times.......practically everyone was. Other than the natives, do you know where the highest population came from during the time of the Jesuits?


Good luck,


Joe

 

[wrmickel1]

Nobodie,

Although I have always believed in Jesuit Treasures, I have also always been very careful to say that I IN NO WAY believe Jesuits ever murdered anybody to keep them secret. They may have treated their wards poorly (overworked and insulted), but you would have a hard road to hoe convincing me (or most other knowledgable people) that members of a group of people willing to give their lives in the service of God would murder dozens of innocent Indians in to keep secret any material wealth.

It is faaaaaaaar more likely that they may have used fire and brimstone scary issuances of eternal threats of hell and damnation if the Indians ever revealed their secrets. THAT, the Church does all the time to all their members. Hahaha

Mike

Mike

I don't believe it's a far cry at all, Natives were being slaughtered by the US government, Witches being burned and tortured in Salem, Wagon Trains and homesteaders were killing them and they had no rights and if you killed one you
Had no law broken. Now if you search there's tons of research witch backs up the claims they were murdering the natives
Or it most likely would'nt be there. So I'm in clines to believe it's just what every one did back then.

Babymick1

 

[azdave35]

Mike

I don't believe it's a far cry at all, Natives were being slaughtered by the US government, Witches being burned and tortured in Salem, Wagon Trains and homesteaders were killing them and they had no rights and if you killed one you
Had no law broken. Now if you search there's tons of research witch backs up the claims they were murdering the natives
Or it most likely would'nt be there. So I'm in clines to believe it's just what every one did back then.

Babymick1

back then?...they are still doing it,,,have you watched the news lately?

 

[sailaway]

Being as I only touched the beginning, here is reading that is necessary to question about Indian matters.
Native American Holocaust: The greatest difference between Columbus and Hitler is that Hitler's Third Reich ended in defeat.
if you have questions please ask that author

Joe look at my first post on Las Casas and what you added was already there. I was showing that he told what was going on to the rest of the world. Do not know why you thought you needed to add what had already been posted about Las Casas. The law of 20 November 1542 was mentioned in post #49. He was just one man fighting for his beliefs in a sea of evil. If you think I did not read your wrong, was only posting what was relevant to the subject, as I gave you the links to read where it came from. Posting long stories instead of the links would just make the statement too long. I do think your edit of my quote is wrong as that was not what I posted, and makes it appear as if it was mine not yours. I have wondered why people on here quote whole post? instead of just the parts they are addressing?
Nothing like Catholics defending other Catholics that were not part of the controversy.
Then to top it all off you blow off the evil that was unleashed against the Indians with a statement of :

It's old news that people were very cruel in those times.......practically everyone was

does that mean just because everyone else does it then it must be OK?
then on top of that you post :

Mike, Believe you are right on! Native Americans, like us whities, get cranky when hungry.

I do not see anywhere that was stated except by you, and was that directed at me?

 

[wrmickel1]

back then?...they are still doing it,,,have you watched the news lately?

I believe your most likely right on that.

babymick1

 

[cactusjumper]

Being as I only touched the beginning, here is reading that is necessary to question about Indian matters.
Native American Holocaust: The greatest difference between Columbus and Hitler is that Hitler's Third Reich ended in defeat.
if you have questions please ask that author

Joe look at my first post on Las Casas and what you added was already there. I was showing that he told what was going on to the rest of the world. Do not know why you thought you needed to add what had already been posted about Las Casas. The law of 20 November 1542 was mentioned in post #49. He was just one man fighting for his beliefs in a sea of evil. If you think I did not read your wrong, was only posting what was relevant to the subject, as I gave you the links to read where it came from. Posting long stories instead of the links would just make the statement too long. I do think your edit of my quote is wrong as that was not what I posted, and makes it appear as if it was mine not yours. I have wondered why people on here quote whole post? instead of just the parts they are addressing?
Nothing like Catholics defending other Catholics that were not part of the controversy.
Then to top it all off you blow off the evil that was unleashed against the Indians with a statement of :

does that mean just because everyone else does it then it must be OK?
then on top of that you post :

I do not see anywhere that was stated except by you, and was that directed at me?

sailaway,

Sorry, I just thought the article was quite a bit more positive than what you had written. What was acceptable back then was a world-wide way of life. The Native Americans were also slavers and took cruelty to the limits. We can't really judge those times with todays moral values. By our lights, not much that was being done was right.

I misjudged your post, and I apologize for that. Mistakes have become the norm for me these days.

Take care,

Joe