Looking for thoughts from AAmerican Indian minded individuals on a recent find

[CCDAMEEK]

I have posted this on the "What is it" forum thread, and am thinking we might have an idea from that about this item.
That has lead me to post it in this forum, so here it is.

While dirt fishing a private property permission of mine with one of our own. Smallfoot dug up the following photoed item.

It is two wires of most likely bronze or brass, very precisely twisted together in tight twists continuously forming an approximately
4" in diameter hoop/ring, then someway brazed or welded the two ends together.
If cleaned and polished up, this piece would just glow like gold and be highly decorative and symbolic of the status of the person wearing it.

Freshly Dug in our finds bin for the day:



Cleaned up slightly by smallfoot:


The item was nicked by smallfoot when he dug it up, and it is the same color tone as my 10K yellow gold wedding band.


Location where the ends were attached to each other by welding/brazing/soldiering



It is WAY to large to be a bangle wrist bracelet. But fellow member Indian Steve suggested that it IS a bracelet, but it's for the UPPER ARM (more commonly referred to as a cuff bracelet, armband, or bicep bracelet.


We are hunting an old orange grove plantation in Florida, but prior to that, it was a water mellon farm, but more importantly, prior to that, the land was also proven to be a former Seminole Indian trading post/encampment area as well, with a archaeology proven Indian mound where ancient pottery artifact pieces dated back 2000 years were found. Those artifacts are in a museum in Maryland now.
For interesting reading on where we are hunting, here is proof of the Seminole connection to the permission land we are working:
https://www.academia.edu/1101995/Th...Mississippian_Influence_in_Peninsular_Florida


I am leaning towards what member Indian Steve suggested.

How many members from this forum feel this may be correct? Please comment!

Smallfoot also found in the same general vicinity this ring, which I also believe is Seminole, or other native related.



I BELIEVE THE SYMBOL ON THE RING (with a turquoise stone attached) is a wild mustang figure


Does anyone have any thoughts on the ring as well??

We are trying to determine if these are important archeological finds, so they can be properly taken care of and preserved.

 

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[Arkansaw]

Beats me. I’m sure someone will chime in. Super cool either way

 

[MAMucker]

Just my impression-They all appear to have Industrial Age methods of manufacture. Brass, casting, lead soldering/brazing in association with shotgun shells (and a copper coated lead bullet) tell us something.
It’s going to be very hard to speculate as to what item is from what era. (Correction: if any are post industrial NA?)
There is some Old Americana there for sure though. The little horse head ring could be silver and pewter.

 

[tomclark]

Oddly the stone and the "armband" look more like Navajo than Seminole..... Seminoles often wore armbands over their shirt/upper arms but I've not seen thin full rings, only "C" shaped, solid thicker ones... Women still wear a lot of bracelets together at the wrist. Near Dade City??

https://www.propertyroom.com/l/09g-petite-turquoise-horse-band-ring-size-425-/10604103

 

[smallfoot]

You nailed the ring tomclark! Way to go...

 

[smallfoot]

Also, good eye CCDAMEEK, I never made that connection until you pointed the features out!

 

[MAMucker]

Good job pulling that ring out of thin air TC. And good eye to spot that tiny horse head CC. The stone actually looks like a small mound of turquoise granules in a poly-mix glaze.

Now I’ve given it a little thought about this (maybe too much thought-oy). I wonder if post modern items are appropriate on this forum. Newer items can be NA associated, but when do they become artifacts. After all, NA tribes and councils exist today.
No disrespect meant to the poster (CCDAMEEK). This post just got me thinking. Some of these items (for the sake of this discussion -all of them) could have been owned or used by a tribal descendent. Does anyone believe that these are therefore artifacts.

I know we’ve had posts and discussions about suspect “worked” glass shards and speculated on association with NAs.

Hoops like that twisted brass one were also used in the early 20th century as cross-stitch kits for decorating walls, windows and doors. I don’t know what it was used for, but it is interesting. And, I noticed that the ruler is a 6” wooden ruler with advertisement by the Colonial Knife Company, Inc. established in 1926, Providence RI. (I digress.)

 

[CCDAMEEK]

Oddly the stone and the "armband" look more like Navajo than Seminole..... Seminoles often wore armbands over their shirt/upper arms but I've not seen thin full rings, only "C" shaped, solid thicker ones... Women still wear a lot of bracelets together at the wrist. Near Dade City??

https://www.propertyroom.com/l/09g-petite-turquoise-horse-band-ring-size-425-/10604103

Items were recovered in central, Lake County.

 

[CCDAMEEK]

Good job pulling that ring out of thin air TC. And good eye to spot that tiny horse head CC. The stone actually looks like a small mound of turquoise granules in a poly-mix glaze.

Now I’ve given it a little thought about this (maybe too much thought-oy). I wonder if post modern items are appropriate on this forum. Newer items can be NA associated, but when do they become artifacts. After all, NA tribes and councils exist today.
No disrespect meant to the poster (CCDAMEEK). This post just got me thinking. Some of these items (for the sake of this discussion -all of them) could have been owned or used by a tribal descendent. Does anyone believe that these are therefore artifacts.

I know we’ve had posts and discussions about suspect “worked” glass shards and speculated on association with NAs.

Hoops like that twisted brass one were also used in the early 20th century as cross-stitch kits for decorating walls, windows and doors. I don’t know what it was used for, but it is interesting. And, I noticed that the ruler is a 6” wooden ruler with advertisement by the Colonial Knife Company, Inc. established in 1926, Providence RI. (I digress.)

To be sure, no disrespect taken. But here's a thought. MAYBE, these were in the ground for over a century, or more, and are in fact related to the Seminoles or another NA tribe, and not "post modern". This is why I posted here, looking and hoping for input from those that might clearly be able to shed some light about them. Where these items were found has historical Native American connection.
For reference if anyone cares to read about the area we are hunting: https://www.academia.edu/1101995/Th...Mississippian_Influence_in_Peninsular_Florida

It is not far fetched to believe these are Native American Artifacts. At this time, we are trying to determine this.

 

[CCDAMEEK]

You nailed the ring tomclark! Way to go...

That is a remarkable likeness that tomclark pulled up! But the rings are noticeably different in construction as well. The ring you found smallfoot has an appearance of copper core construction, and the horse likeness is markedly different, and mounted at a different orientation to the much finer band. The sample tomclark pulled up appears to be a molded likeness. Certainly aren't of the same time period in my opinion.

 

[MAMucker]

To be sure, no disrespect taken. But here's a thought. MAYBE, these were in the ground for over a century, or more, and are in fact related to the Seminoles or another NA tribe, and not "post modern". This is why I posted here, looking and hoping for input from those that might clearly be able to shed some light about them. Where these items were found has historical Native American connection.
For reference if anyone cares to read about the area we are hunting: https://www.academia.edu/1101995/Th...Mississippian_Influence_in_Peninsular_Florida

It is not far fetched to believe these are Native American Artifacts. At this time, we are trying to determine this.

I appreciate that effort and hope you get to the bottom of it.

 

[joshuaream]

It is not far fetched to believe these are Native American Artifacts. At this time, we are trying to determine this.

Tom covered it really well. If I found the ring, I would be 100% certain that it does not match up with the time when historic period Native Americans were trading/living in Central Florida.

You could find the exact dates by looking up the treaties on Wikipedia, but Andrew Jackson essentially stopped all trade with the Seminoles while they were in Central Florida by the mid 1830's. (Between the first and second Seminole War.) A trade ring could have been exchanged earlier than the 1830's, but the first Navajo Silversmith hadn't even been born by then. A turquoise & silver ring combo simply doesn't fit the time-frame any more than the emblem from a Ford Mustang would. The ring is probably much more recent.

The bracelet/torque/cuff thing is interesting, but isn't consistent with what Seminoles used. If it was found with the ring, then I'd assume it was much later as well. Here is a really good file with some pictures of what the Seminoles and others wore and used in Florida from the 1820's onward. The C cuffs Tom mentioned are visible in many pictures in the second part of the file. Again, it could have been an earlier trade item from the Spanish (Spanish trade goods were often one off pieces), or native made from scrap, but that's a lot of stretch without associated relics or context.

Interesting to note Seminole women wore a lot of beads. (150 to 200 necklaces weighing up to 10 pounds was a common amount for daily use, young girls might were half that amount.) If you were on a trade era site in Central Florida you would have likely spotted them in the dirt as the strands often broke and beads were cheap & plentiful. (They are hard to pick up at times, but the colors stand out against sand or dirt.) Did you see any of those?

https://omart.org/images/uploads/pdfs/Enduring_Beauty_Edited_Catalogue_Complete_Final.pdf

Dig a little deeper on the site, there are a ton of ancient relics in that area of Florida still.

 

[MAMucker]

What a great source. Josh, your reply and link is very informative. A good study. Thank you.

 

[smallfoot]

That's a great reference Joshuaream! Thanks! Guys and gals after seeing the ring item posted by tomclark, it made it clearer in my mind that the ring I found was probably later. I suspected that from the beginning. For one thing, I believed to to be plated. What little was left was on the inside and looked more gold than silver. But plated whatever didn't fit to me. Turquoise is often set in silver. I'm thinking if this dated even back to Seminole occupation times(which is not way back as far as history goes) for this area it would have been real silver or gold. I'm thinking cheap bling ring on that.
Now I've got a small collection of NA stuff that has been found in many areas around our search area, but I'm pretty certain none of it hit the ground because the Seminoles used it. It pre-dates that period. None of my items are metallic. It has been reported to me by the owner of this property that copper items have been found nearby. And then the link from CCDAMEEK confirmed that. I haven't been lucky enough to ID anything metallic as being NA. I haven't posted any of my items on this forum as not many have been found recently. I also have a couple of items relating to the Seminole wars, those have been authenticated.
On the twisted ring....who knows! I'd love it to be NA but without some evidence, I won't assume! I have intentions of giving it to the landowner to have it researched by some of his colleagues.
We have been keeping our eyes open for NA stuff as we dig. We are in a prime area for finds but don't have a pit made to dig specifically for that. It's just what we turn over in our search for metallic targets.
I thank you all for the opinions! That's why it was posted here...some great minds!

 

[tomclark]

Some early trading from that region

 

[tomclark]

These are later trading post..