Minelab Vs. DFX Real World

[Digger]

I dug a US oval buckle at roughly 16" with one of my older detectors, but I don't think there is a detector on the market, yet, that will find a coin at that depth. 14"? in sand, Possibly.

The coins in our park that I recover at 8-9" are little more than a crackle in the threshold tone. If I hear the threshold tone change in the least bit, and it's repeatable, I check the depth. If the depth says 7" or deeper I dig. Not all, but many times it is a coin.

Not so long ago it would have taken someone with a lot of experience and a darn good detector to get down 6-7". Today, detectors like the DFX and Minelab SE are allowing first times users to get down to those depths. And as experience increases, so does the depth.

The DFX, like most of the high-end detectors, are pretty good on their own down to about 7-8", beyond that, it's up to the user to go deeper. The more experienced the user the deeper it can go. And that holds true for pretty much all detectors.

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

A History of Mining on the Kenai Peninsula, Alaska - Grab it through Amazon!

[DFX-SE Gregg]

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,139978.0.html

 

[dewcon4414]

As far as weight, its distributed a bit different but for me i tend to swing the SE better. I was having a little elbow problems with the DFX, but now... all is cured. It swings slower but for me my form is much better. The SE really gives you the feeling of power right out of the box... much like the MXT does. I tested my DFX at 8" on a nickel and dime... i hit both, but both wrapped around to negitive numbers. Now on the beach the DFX was a killer on jewerly. I found toe rings at 14". But i never got much beyond 7" on a target even after sending it in twice for service. They replaced the coil once and said it was out of phase the other. I like both machines and beleave the DFX is better in trashy areas. I travel full time now so i get to sample different areas of the country. Looking forward to seeing how the SE does. Like you Gregg... id let you know what i think, but hey i really like both machines.

 

[doctorbb]

I haven't had a target over 7 inches yet but if I did I couldn't recover it. Where are y'all hunting that you can take a shovel and dig a 14" hole? Must be deep woods. If I dug a hole that deep in the park or town square they would conduct a house search and confiscate every detector in town. Stealth hunting here, tread lightly, and leave no sign. They even look at you kinda funny when you dig a hole on the beach. Commies everywhere.

 

[EasyMoney]

In the real world, there is little difference in depth between each and every detector over a $200 price tag.

Gary's Detectors of Great Britain and Joan Allen both tested current Tesoros, Minelabs, Fishers, several European detectors, and White's all against the big and powerful Nexus. They say basically the same things as did Erik Foster, Keith Wills, George Payne, and Jack Gifford of Tesoro. Anybody who is serious about metal detecting knows who these chaps are and that they are the ultimate experts on the subject of metal detectors. They know what they are talking about.

The only VLF detector that could actully find a dime-sized British coin placed in the ground through the side of the hole at 10 inches so as not to disturb the ground matrix was the Monster Nexus with it's larger coil. The only other detector that could even produce a weak sound at all besides the Nexus was the Bristish version of the Silver uMax with a 9X8 coil (if I remember correctly). Not one other detector could find a coin that size at 10 inches. According to George Payne we would be extremely hard-pressed to find any penny sized coin in average soil past 8 inches. This same size-orientation also closely applies to slugs, sabots, round-ball, coin sized fishing weights, etc.

Also, the above people stated that there is absolutey zero measureable "halo effect" on any targets that are other than iron or iron ores, including tin. Gold has almost zip in bleedoff (leaching into the soil) and neither does silver. Copper has almost as little and lead has even less. In effect, there is no halo effect save for iron and steel targets and that takes a bit of time to evolve anyway.

They also said that an air test is the biggest and best rough determination of a detector's propensity for obtaining a certain depth, but that there is NO VLF detector made that can find a coin deeper in the ground than it does in the air, unless it is an iron coin.

I went to the White's factory and discovered that the DFX, the MXT, and the Explorer SE and II all got within 1/2 inch of each other in air depth AND in the ground. There was no constant either. Some got 1/2 inch better is the air, and some got 1/2 inch better in the ground, regardless of which ground the searching was done in. There was so little difference in their depth potential that any of the detectors we tested would do as well as the other. No Fishers were matched, but I feel very comfortable that the same results would have been achieved. All the above detectors measured around 12 inches in an air test, give or take 1/2".

 

[MonkeyBoy]

I haven't had a target over 7 inches yet but if I did I couldn't recover it. Where are y'all hunting that you can take a shovel and dig a 14" hole? Must be deep woods. If I dug a hole that deep in the park or town square they would conduct a house search and confiscate every detector in town. Stealth hunting here, tread lightly, and leave no sign. They even look at you kinda funny when you dig a hole on the beach. Commies everywhere.

In 18 years I have never hunted a beach and only one "play ground" and it was a 1874 school that also was producing a few Civil War finds.. couple of 3 ringers. I did take my son to the new playground connected to it when I bought him a Prizm IV and we were not using shovels there. I actually just broke and started using a shovel in the last couple of years, one of the little garden shovels from Home Depot... and I think I cut cleaner plugs with that over anything else! Keeps the plug intact being able to cut through the root base out in the fields. This is relic hunting.. dig big.. dig deep ;-) but fill your holes.. don't climb fences and close the gates!!!!

 

[MonkeyBoy]

dfx-gregg said"

"I don't think it is a matter of being in or out of a league as you say.... I would really like to know and see someone dig a 14-16 inch signal with a dfx...not a picture a video... Also I have heard of fishers, explorers getting past a foot...but not to many people claiming 14 to 16 inches with a dfx! I was flooded with e-mails from other dfx users who also reported getting only 6 to 8 inches.... I tried the programs...if anything my dfx just became more unstable.... I am sure soil conditions play a role...but before I claim my soil is bad...and just to mineralized let me learn the se and report back.... "

Soil has tons to do with it.. we get some shale and clay here at various depths.. but generally not in older growth woods and most farms I hunt... some of which have been active farms since the 1700s... well.. before the developers came!! So a foot+ of loom or loose forest soil is a huge bonus. Anyone in the flood of emails give details? Coil type? Conditions? etc? I have not had the stock coil on my machine in a long time.. either the 4x10, the 12" or if the ground is mineralized the DD1400 for relic hunting. Now the 12" coil really works well.. I have been able to run it pretty high.. AC ~78, Preamp 4 and it still GB's ok.. I can't do that with the DD1400, usually will not GB with the high preamp gain.. so.. I bounce between the 4x10 and 12" mostly.. the DD140 has been really good in one place with a lot of trash and deep relics.. so it was worth the price. I would say maybe to stop thinking "signal" I run my threshold high.. and have dig bullets that started off as nothing more the a "break" or lapse in the threshold... but it was repeatable.. hit the same spot and the threshold breaks everything.. having already dug a ton of stuff there.. start digging.. and when I say dig.. if the area allows.. I have dug holes wide enough to stick the 12" down into the ground.. and you may not get a good signal till it is up and out of the hole. The key to this one spot was it was an early war New York camp.. lot's of .69 three ringers and they are big! That is like an ounce of lead.. Do you think you could pick up a "good" signal on a silver dollar at 12"? and if you dug one "iffy" signal at 12" that turned out to be a silver dollar.. would you start digging the others that sound similar? That is probably a better comparison. The coins in the picture, a "pocket spill" which included two buttons and sutler's token were all pretty shallow.. nothing over 6" and in a area maybe 4 by 8 feet or so.. with a lot of melted lead and a few carved bullets as well.. so lots of hits.. gotta love bored troops around a camp fire!!

..and you do know someone digging that that depth w/ a DFX ;-) Where are you anyway? If you ever come through Northern Virginia let me know.. I'd be glad to take you out to a couple of these spots... but soon.. the house next to the NY camp is for sale and I am hoping it does not include the stance of woods I was hunting.. but I have others that are good for years.. permission wise.. Hmm.. kinda liking that idea.. a "T-Net Field Test Hunt"

MonkeyBoy

 

[Digger]

Well EasyMoney you had me up until the "Also, the above people stated that there is absolutey zero measureable "halo effect"" But after that I had to realize obviously reputation doesn't mean you know it all. And this one "there is NO VLF detector made that can find a coin deeper in the ground than it does in the air" sealed the deal.

For anyone that believes this phenomenon is not real I'd be happy to reproduce it over and over again until they're satisfied. What causes the "halo effect" is surely up for debate, but to say it doesn't exist is just plain false. Here is an example thats hard to deny. This Indian Head was found at a typical location where lots of fertilizer has been used for many years. Note how much bigger the coin is physically as the metal has begun to leach away.

Here is another picture of the same coin. Notice all the missing metal? don't you suppose that missing material could have leached into the surrounding soil which would have produced a bigger signal for a detector?

As far as the air testing. I can somewhat agree that for the most part a detector will not go any deeper in the ground than it does in the air test, but if the above is true, then that theory is flawed. Without a doubt air tests have value, but they do not tell you how deep it will go in the ground. You can have 2 detectors that air test identically but perform completely different in the field.

 

[Kas]

About the deepest I've recovered anything with the DFX and stock coil is 7". Adding the 12" coil you may gain a few inches on Discrim depth and a few more on All-metal depth. I assume you hunt in all metal for relics. So a large item might be picked up deeper. My DFX only reads to a depth of 13.5 inches. Not saying that a target won't be picked up and be dug from a deeper depth. It'll be a larger item that gets picked up at depth.

With the ac sens cranked to 85 and the pre-amp at 4, the a setting of 45 dc sens filters at 3, you'd have to have a spot that had no interference what-so-ever. Otherwise stability would be a problem. Now, neutral soil will allow deeper depths to be had. Florida soil is one of these soils. In the red clay soils you'd have more trouble with depth due to the ground mineralzation. In Ohio you may get 9" with a super 12". Soil does make a difference. I'm sure you could pick up a large object at 14" with a super 12, if you're looking for an old gallon paint cons or something of that size.

 

[DFX-SE Gregg]

dfx-gregg said"

"I don't think it is a matter of being in or out of a league as you say.... I would really like to know and see someone dig a 14-16 inch signal with a dfx...not a picture a video... Also I have heard of fishers, explorers getting past a foot...but not to many people claiming 14 to 16 inches with a dfx! I was flooded with e-mails from other dfx users who also reported getting only 6 to 8 inches.... I tried the programs...if anything my dfx just became more unstable.... I am sure soil conditions play a role...but before I claim my soil is bad...and just to mineralized let me learn the se and report back.... "

Soil has tons to do with it.. we get some shale and clay here at various depths.. but generally not in older growth woods and most farms I hunt... some of which have been active farms since the 1700s... well.. before the developers came!! So a foot+ of loom or loose forest soil is a huge bonus. Anyone in the flood of emails give details? Coil type? Conditions? etc? I have not had the stock coil on my machine in a long time.. either the 4x10, the 12" or if the ground is mineralized the DD1400 for relic hunting. Now the 12" coil really works well.. I have been able to run it pretty high.. AC ~78, Preamp 4 and it still GB's ok.. I can't do that with the DD1400, usually will not GB with the high preamp gain.. so.. I bounce between the 4x10 and 12" mostly.. the DD140 has been really good in one place with a lot of trash and deep relics.. so it was worth the price. I would say maybe to stop thinking "signal" I run my threshold high.. and have dig bullets that started off as nothing more the a "break" or lapse in the threshold... but it was repeatable.. hit the same spot and the threshold breaks everything.. having already dug a ton of stuff there.. start digging.. and when I say dig.. if the area allows.. I have dug holes wide enough to stick the 12" down into the ground.. and you may not get a good signal till it is up and out of the hole. The key to this one spot was it was an early war New York camp.. lot's of .69 three ringers and they are big! That is like an ounce of lead.. Do you think you could pick up a "good" signal on a silver dollar at 12"? and if you dug one "iffy" signal at 12" that turned out to be a silver dollar.. would you start digging the others that sound similar? That is probably a better comparison. The coins in the picture, a "pocket spill" which included two buttons and sutler's token were all pretty shallow.. nothing over 6" and in a area maybe 4 by 8 feet or so.. with a lot of melted lead and a few carved bullets as well.. so lots of hits.. gotta love bored troops around a camp fire!!

..and you do know someone digging that that depth w/ a DFX ;-) Where are you anyway? If you ever come through Northern Virginia let me know.. I'd be glad to take you out to a couple of these spots... but soon.. the house next to the NY camp is for sale and I am hoping it does not include the stance of woods I was hunting.. but I have others that are good for years.. permission wise.. Hmm.. kinda liking that idea.. a "T-Net Field Test Hunt"

MonkeyBoy

I would really like to come out and hunt with you, if I ever pass thru will drop you a private message first. But the more I read...I think my dfx is going in for another check up...I may print this letter first. I see easy money also claiming the dfx will air test at 12 inches....well not my dfx...air tests even with the coil replacement at 7 to 8 inches. Also once again faint deep signals are mentioned by moneyboy. Well here is what I did...might be a good idea just to learn what a faint signal sounds like....

After receiving a brand new stock replacement coil for the dfx....I did several air tests...pulling coins just out of range and slowly bringing them back just enough to make any audible reaction. I especially listened closely to the Mercury dime and did hear that same sound the next day! It was in deed a Merc (this happened last year), but what amazed me was the signal was so weak...I dug...it was only 6 inches down.... Some said it could have been on its side causing such a weak signal at only 6 inches. I am in Illinois for those who asked and have an authorized Whites repair center within 14 miles. I decided I am going to contact him with these depth readings and ask for a complete check up of the dfx~!

It is still under warranty so why not? I have already replaced 2 faulty coils, one had a pinched wire, one gave the same 4.5 reading for everything. one stock, one 5.3 Eclipse. So I will ask him what the dfx should air test out at...but I hate to tell you guys when I contacted Whites earlier in the year...for those that say it air tests at 12 inches...they told me up to 8 inches is pretty common.

 

[DFX-SE Gregg]

About the deepest I've recovered anything with the DFX and stock coil is 7". Adding the 12" coil you may gain a few inches on Discrim depth and a few more on All-metal depth. I assume you hunt in all metal for relics. So a large item might be picked up deeper. My DFX only reads to a depth of 13.5 inches. Not saying that a target won't be picked up and be dug from a deeper depth. It'll be a larger item that gets picked up at depth.

With the ac sens cranked to 85 and the pre-amp at 4, the a setting of 45 dc sens filters at 3, you'd have to have a spot that had no interference what-so-ever. Otherwise stability would be a problem. Now, neutral soil will allow deeper depths to be had. Florida soil is one of these soils. In the red clay soils you'd have more trouble with depth due to the ground mineralzation. In Ohio you may get 9" with a super 12". Soil does make a difference. I'm sure you could pick up a large object at 14" with a super 12, if you're looking for an old gallon paint cons or something of that size.

This sounds along the line of my thinking...but I would also say a signal at 16 inches with a dfx would amaze me..especially because the visual display stops at 13.5....as Kas and I have previously stated....how do you know it is 14, 16 whatever...again what is your depth reading on the display...is it showing 13.5... I already learned the se will go past a foot or so I have been told with a clear bar indication on the depth reading.

Hey I have a great idea...one of you guys ait testing a dfx at 12 inches could you do a short video and show all the dfx users that depth on the display?

 

[Kas]

I agree Greg. My DFX is a poor air tester. Had it check out at Sweet home and they said it was fine.

Modulation has to be set off to hear faint deep targets. Typically a coin on the verticle edge will give a double beep one direction, as the coil sees both sides of the coin, and a single beep the other direction. FYI anyone who is interested. My DFX just isn't that deep.
Now, if you want to talk about the fisher CZ with the 8" coil and depth....

 

[DFX-SE Gregg]

I agree Greg. My DFX is a poor air tester. Had it check out at Sweet home and they said it was fine.

Modulation has to be set off to hear faint deep targets. Typically a coin on the verticle edge will give a double beep one direction, as the coil sees both sides of the coin, and a single beep the other direction. FYI anyone who is interested. My DFX just isn't that deep.
Now, if you want to talk about the fisher CZ with the 8" coil and depth....

Kas you are just stating what I would say about 95% of dfx users have told me....none ever mentioning a coin past 8-9 inches..... Again obviously I have seen a few token claims and I do mean a limited few...instead of jumping up and saying my dfx does it...how about a short video on a piece of plywood or cardboard with the depths marked...this would be great.... I am also in the camp that the air test and depth in soil is close.... So showing a dfx air test past 8-9 inches would be a lot better then just saying it...anyone?

 

[Digger]

So showing a dfx air test past 8-9 inches would be a lot better then just saying it...anyone?

Here you go! Sorry for the size but it was a quick video and I'm still learning to compress these puppy's.

It's cold outside so I did this in my living room so the DFX's stability is not optimal, but it should be good enough to clearly see it does pickup this 10k gold ring beyond 9" using only the factory coin/jewelry program.

http://www.detectorplace.com/detecting/dfxdepth.mpg

 

[EasyMoney]

Well, technically, iron has a very unstable chemical outer shell. The reason being that there are loosley bound electrons that easily are attracted to the neighboring soil and it's magnetic (electron) capacity for attraction - positive to negatve, the "hole" theory. Additionally, there is a catalyst (the H2O) in the soil that attracts and transfers the free electrons from the iron or steel to other elements in the soil. It's all just a matter of chemistry and basic physics, one of the very first things I learned about in my Electronics Engineering classes and my Bell & Howell Electronics courses.

Gold on the other hand has a very stable configuration of tightly held electrons. That's exactly why it does not lose it's color and sheen after being in the ground for 400 years. It even still weighs the same. Silver loses a little portion of it's free electrons, but not quite as much as copper or brass does. In all fairness though, there is no metal detector made now, nor has there ever been one made that could actually read the boil-off of electrons or the leached covalently bonded surrounding matrix created by any leaching into the soil from brass, lead, copper, gold, silver, pewter, etc. We just plain do not have the knowledge or capability to build something that sensitive from just using electronics parts and hardware.

Oxidation is another story. Actually fire is nothing more than very fast oxidation. Oxidation breaks down metals with a poor outer shell of electrons when the oxygen in the soil and air combines with another element, such as iron or wood or bread crumbs, etc, and it does it very well and easily too. This is not the "halo effect" though, it's only breaking the metal down and leaving the dust and pieces in the soil, not forming a "halo".

The halo effect involves a direct encompassing or free or radical electrons reaching precisely from the metal outward forming a halo, and does not do as deterioration does, the breaking apart and crumbling away of the metal dust and tiny pieces from the main object . In fact, there is no concentric configuration at all when deterioration happens. The deterioration can even form a simple line in-between soil strata, or it can form an oval pattern vertically or eliptically or in a random pattern.. Deterioration due to oxidation is vastly different than excessive loosely bound electrons bonding and forming a "halo" during covalent bonding.

There is a halo formed in the ground (only) with steel and iron, not with other metals or other elements. It's a scientific, electronics, chemical, and physical fact, and one of the first things people learn in high school or college chemistry class concerning boiling off or precipitation of molecules. Metalic tearing apart or breakdown is not the same as the "halo effect" at all, and iron metals can leave a mass as wide as a Mack truck when the steel or iron has completely deteriorated. Again, it is virtually impossible for other than iron or steel to leave a halo effect or deteriorate enough to make any difference unless the metal is Fe or a closely related or bound ore. Copper does deteriorate slightly quicker than brass and lead, but not nearly as quickly as iron. That's why iron relics can be found so deep but old coins the same original size cannot. That's also why gold, silver, brass, lead, and other semi-precious metals don't leave a halo even 400 years later, but some (such as copper) do break apart and deteriorate at a faster rate than say gold, or silver..

 

[Born2Dtect]

I chose the Minelab EXP II. For 2 reasons. It is a deeper detector on average and the pattern of the DD coil. For these 2 reasons I chose it. I expect to find more than other machines, and I have not been let down yet.

Ed D.

 

[Digger]

OK. Well EasyMoney, I'm not even going to attempt to argue with that. What I will say, and continue to say, is that I don't claim to know the cause of the phenomenon, only that it does exist. It could be caused by radiation from the sun on a hot day penetrating the ground and being absorbed by a coin causing it to be more easily detected for all I know. I use the term "halo effect" as I believe many do. Nothing more than a simple description of the phenomenon of a coin in the ground for a long period of time be more easily detected.

 

[johnnycat]

Good to see an honest civil discussion. 8) Those of us that are sitting on the side following, I feel actually learn something. I know I do.

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

"Halo Effect" is a good debatable subject, as I believe it is widely discussed but may not be truly understood. Being a sailor I can tell you when you have dissimilar metals in a wet or damp environment (as in dirt) you will get a galvanometric effect. Zinc degrades and protects the steel or brass it is connected to. A gold coin may not deteriorate or oxodize, but it WILL cause a less noble metal nearby - and remember substances link silicon (silica/sand/quartz), calcium, carbon are metals. Silver and gold may not degrade, but the galvanometric transfers of ions and electrons around them in the soil itself may (and this is a guess) be something the field of the detector senses as different from the soil elsewhere as it searches for variations in conductivity. Detectors only detect changes in condictivity, after all. That would also explain why wet soil detects better, but wet sand overloads many detectors.

 

[Kas]

Any way you slice it of care to put the terms on it, A coin in the soil matrix is better detectable at depth than a coin buried in a test garden yesterday. Halo effect or whatever it may be, there is something there that helps to better identify the object at depth.