Molina Maps

[Azquester]

This is my personal Take on the subject that so many are upset about since this Thread and entire category "The Lost Gold of Tumacacori" was started by my suggestion I should add my opinion.

First it's never been proven that the Treasure of Tumacacori Map is a direct Treasure of the Jesuit's. Every document written back then had a religious undertone.

I'm speaking of the Map not the Molina Documents.

Since the Treasure has never been found it would make a great category for a treasure hunt and that's how it all got started.

Now since other threads are being posted under the Category of the "Lost Gold of of Tumacacori" and since the treasure has never been found I believe either the "Jesuit Treasures are they Real or Not?" thread should be moved into it's own Jesuit category or just stay where it was before. If the Mods decide to keep it here it should stay where it's at under "The Lost Gold of Tumacacori" which would compliment the search as a tool for the Molina documents as the Map for the Tumacacori Treasure has not been proven to be Jesuit in origin.

All Members can Post on any threads and no member owns a thread or Category and I don't own this one I only suggested it.
As you can see below no where on this map does it say "Jesuit Treasure"

 

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[Azquester]

Information relating to the Treasure of Tumacacori Map.


View attachment 1143560 View attachment 1143561

 

[Azquester]

Here you go Froggy no hard feelings bud if you want to be secretive do it.

This is the Molina Redotero with out translation.


View attachment 1143563

 

[Azquester]

Molina Rodetero Page two

Page two translated Molina Rodetero




View attachment 1143564

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Bill, documnt. map, lines are folds in the map. ?

 

[Oroblanco]

Bump <please do continue>

 

[Oroblanco]

I think this issue has been brought up before, but (to anyone who cares to respond) what about the problem of the DATE on the Molina document? It is far too early being even before father Kino entered AZ, and supposedly he was the first missionary to enter the region. He was not the first, but I want to hear others on this problem, thanks in advance.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Oro, if I remember correctly when I translated that for Gallum I found serious descrepenies in the measurements.

 

[Oroblanco]

Oro, if I remember correctly when I translated that for Gallum I found serious descrepenies in the measurements.

If memory serves the problems were with the translation, not the original measurements, right? As in translating "varas" for "rods" which makes for huge errors.

I am especially interested in the theories about the dates given on the Molina documents
1598 to 1658

Most of us here are well aware that the Jesuits 'arrived' on the scene in AZ in 1687, not 1598 nor even 1658. I have heard several different explanations for this, the most curious being that it is not really a set of dates but encoded information. Is there something in the difference between those two numbers, (60) some point of significance? Or is it just something on the order of a priest or nun, assigning a much earlier date for the events than what was the reality? I have seen this in a couple of other instances, where members of the Order are recording their triumphs of their predecessors, and have assigned dates for the events that are too far back in time, earlier even than the arrival of the Spanish in Mexico in one instance.

But if these two numbers are really not dates but important information like a distance, bearing, even latitude/longitude coordinates, I am interested in hearing others theories about this. Otherwise if these are dates and not encoded information, it is fairly strong evidence that the documents are a spoof.

Coffee?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

In the translations, not the measurements - since we haven't found them ( it ) yet that is open.

Yes on the coffee., naturlally.

 

[somehiker]

Not dates but biblical numbers arranged in 4 digit groups in this case, that will convey a message to those steeped in their theological references and meanings.
That message, if followed as one would an instruction sheet for the assembly of something would be obvious to those who had spent a good part of their lives in sacrifice and servitude to the order, as well as an unimaginable number of hours memorizing biblical passages during the order's theological training as well as during periods of self reflection, prayer and penance. In other words, the perfect coding system, requiring nothing more than what they already had available and memorized.

Regards:SH.

 

[lgadbois]

I wonder if Bill Conley is still around. Bill published some of his findings in a series of articles that were published in Treasure Search Magazine in 1985. Bill tried to find the real source of the Molina Derroterro (also called Redotero). He didn't come up with much, but I thought I would add some things to this thread.

Bill interviewed Manual V. Ortiz (who died in 1997).Ortiz met Santiago Molina in Mexico along with his daughter. Molina was trying to sell some valuable instructions to a church treasure. Ortiz agreed to pay the $5. Santiago took out an old document and started dictating the contents to his daughter. Ortiz noted that he wasn't reading the document properly, and he agreed to pay an additional dollar to view the directions and copy them himself. This document was one of several that old Molina had dictated and sold. Ortiz asked where the old document came from. Molina told him that an army man by the name of Oliva was involved in running a Galera at Tumacacori, and because of the Apaches, the Mission and Galera were shut down and the valuables were moved to a secret hiding place. Oliva wrote the document and stored it in a bottle. He was very afraid that the authorities would search his house and find it. He then removed his original copy and replaced it with another document that contained some false and misleading information. It wasn't clear how Molina had obtained the document. The meeting between Molina and Ortiz took place about 1940. There was no map.

Meanwhile, Milton F. Rose had obtained a copy of a similar document. The Rose Printery had agreed to publish John Mitchell's 1933 book. Rose loaned his copy to Mitchell who used it for writing his book. Rose also had obtained a different document that was written in German and Spanish that had a map with some symbols. Rose gave an interview to Lawler while living in Salome in 1972. Lawler was working on some treasure magazine articles, and Rose was occupied with other things.

The historic Pete Kitchen Ranch had been sold to a man named Charley Sykes. Charlie had also got a copy of the directions. When Col. Gil Proctor bought the Ranch in 1943, he found that copy of the Molina Derroterro among the items at the Ranch. Proctor used it for content in two of his books. There was no map. Proctor said that a large black stone had been found by someone, that had a map on the under side. There may be a photo of that may floating around somewhere.

About the same time Norman G. Wallace was a civil engineer for a railroad. He was doing track layout in the U.S. and Mexico In 1944 Wallace published a story that he heard from another railroad man, The story was of a young WWI veteran that had returned from the war. The date of the tale was never confirmed by Wallace. This man had been staying with friends at the Phil Clark Ranch, which is located just North of Ruby Road. Davey Jamison (a false name) had heard of some lost mine stories and decided to do some hiking and camping. He camped in Walker Canyon and went hiking. He came upon a small stone building and a mine shaft that was nearly covered. It looked like there were sacks of ore stacked inside the tunnel. He had his camera and snapped some pictures. On the weekend a friend from Tucson came to meet him with supplies. The friend agreed to take the film back and get it developed. During the following week a terrible storm raged through S. Arizona. A visit to Davey's campsiite revealed his gear had been hit by a flash flood and he was nowhere to be found. Searchers finally had to give up looking for him. The photos he took revealed the building and mine that he had told his friend about. Over the years, Wallace was sorry that he had written the article for the 1944 Desert magazine. He was on Bill Burrud's TV Treasure Show and said that he had no additional information other than what was in the article. Wallace was no stranger to the back country. In his career he had walked many hundreds of miles while selecting and surveying rail routes in Arizona and Mexico.

The earliest expedition to recover the Galera goods was mounted out of Mexico City by Teodor Salazar in 1817. They located a tunnel that may have been the one at Camp Loco. They did have some success though they wer unable to locate any rich mines.

Bill Conley was convinced that the mines described in the Molina are all East of the Santa Cruz River. Some old maps show the San Ramon Spring and Janos Pass east of the river. Was this the misdirection that was added to the Derroterro? Gollum has stated on more than one occasion that the tunnel and massive tailing pile at Camp Loco show no signs of valuable ore. Was this the original Galera storage site?

One thing is for sure, the copied and translated Molina Derroterro is not from the Jesuit period (which ended in 1767). It could have been composed at the time of the Gasden Purchase. Most of the conclusions by the National Park Service are correct. The waybill has too many errors to be anything but a recent rendering of the information.

The map was most likely drawn sometime in the last 100 years. It is actually an easy map to understand. It is four maps in one, with relative distances as written in the Derroterro around the edge. If some has seen or photographed the "map stone", it would be nice to post the information or picture on this thread.

 

[Azquester]

It was my understanding that Manual V Ortiz made fake maps for tourists and not a man to be trusted so I see no real value to the story other than the story itself.

I'm sure it was Donald Page Arizona's first Archaeologist that had the original map along with many others which is in his collection of documents left after his demise. According to his own documents it was a young Mexican boy that found the secret hiding place of the Maps at a certain location within Missions. The boy discovered one of the maps and docs and reported it to Page. Mr Page started removing the maps from all old crumbling Mission buildings and had this collection when he passed suddenly. They all vanished after his death. But the Molina Doc had been copied in Mexico. One other Treasure Hunter informed me he had made his copy from an old copy in a Library in Mexico. The one I posted I shot with my camera back in 2001. That was the one I was told had been from the original. I received one copy from Ron Quinn but it turned out to be one of the many forgeries that have been made. If the real map was stone then copies are all we have. But I believe the missing original map was stolen from Donald Pages archives when he passed.

Many versions of this story exists. But Don Page was the one it may have originated from and since he was dead it became others story for the picking. With the original map and many others gone from view it was easy to make it ones own story for profit.'
Bill Conley was a Treasure magazine writer and searched for many Treasures around here with Ron Quinn. The Maps I have from the Legend of the Mine with the Iron Door came from both Ron and Bill through one of the readers of their articles in the magazine in California.

They both searched to no avail looking for an old prospect which was key for locating the Mine according to the person that sent the letters. Since neither Ron or Bill could triangulate with a compass like a surveyor and knew no way to actually read topographic maps the only way they could give their position was through panoramic photos taped together from their location. One would have to try and find that location by looking at the photos while hiking there and matching them up which is almost impossible. Believe me I used those photos many times and it is very hard to do it that way but not impossible. I did manage to get to the Indian Time Portal that way. It took me about six or seven trips though.

 

[lgadbois]

Donald W. Page worked for the City of Tucson. He held the position of City Engineer for several years. Here is a reference to his papers:
ArchiveGrid : Page research notes, 1934-1957.

 

[lgadbois]

Maybe the story has no merit, but again:
"Molina told him that an army man by the name of Oliva was involved in running a Galera at Tumacacori, and because of the Apaches, the Mission and Galera were shut down and the valuables were moved to a secret hiding place. Oliva wrote the document and stored it in a bottle. He was very afraid that the authorities would search his house and find it. He then removed his original copy and replaced it with another document that contained some false and misleading information. It wasn't clear how Molina had obtained the document."

Who was the soldier named Oliva? Did he run a Galera at Tumacacori? Was the site at Camp Loco the secure storage location for the Galera? I read somewhere that Tumacacori was a supply center for the Presidio at Tubac, and by the 1820s had a large cattle herd. The names of the mines in the Molina are all Franciscan, and the mines could have been active during the time that the Presidio in Tubac offered protection.

 

[Azquester]

Donald Page was head quartered out of Berkley, Ca. Most of his papers are at the Bancroft Library. It was his papers though that lead me in my search for the location of the lost mission city of Ciru.

I have in my collection quite a few of his papers outlining many treasures secreted around Tucson.

I believe his papers in Ca. contain some reference to the Molina Map. But the link you provided does not come close to the many boxes of material I went through decades ago.

With the Government or state museum, you have to know what your looking for when you ask. I asked for a collection on the lost mission and was given boxes of material. I just so happened it was Donald Page that wrote those papers. But if you ask for Donald Pages papers you'll be given boxes that contain nothing on the lost mission. Makes me wonder how many other lost legends are boxed up with nobody knowing the name to ask for.

Donald W. Page worked for the City of Tucson. He held the position of City Engineer for several years. Here is a reference to his papers:
ArchiveGrid : Page research notes, 1934-1957.

 

[Azquester]

Tumacacori itself was a Presidio until Tubac was built further north for better protection from the hostiles. I wonder if this story is contained in the DRSW?
Might be worth a search.

Maybe the story has no merit, but again:
"Molina told him that an army man by the name of Oliva was involved in running a Galera at Tumacacori, and because of the Apaches, the Mission and Galera were shut down and the valuables were moved to a secret hiding place. Oliva wrote the document and stored it in a bottle. He was very afraid that the authorities would search his house and find it. He then removed his original copy and replaced it with another document that contained some false and misleading information. It wasn't clear how Molina had obtained the document."

Who was the soldier named Oliva? Did he run a Galera at Tumacacori? Was the site at Camp Loco the secure storage location for the Galera? I read somewhere that Tumacacori was a supply center for the Presidio at Tubac, and by the 1820s had a large cattle herd. The names of the mines in the Molina are all Franciscan, and the mines could have been active during the time that the Presidio in Tubac offered protection.

 

[Azquester]

There was a Jesuit Mine discovered in the early part of the 20th century by a man named Lucky Lully from Nogales. It became known as the town of Alta home of the Gold Tree mine east of Tumacacori. I don't know if they are referencing that mine or others but there was a Jesuit Mine east of there and probably more hidden forever. As far as I know the tailing pile at camp Loco, which only got it's name as such in the mid 1940's, is a recent Treasure Hunters excavation. So this whole story is a mixture of old and new and probably fabricated by recent people for investors of their operations just for shock value.

I know John Mitchell wrote his books based on Fiction he himself came up with so his version of anything would be highly suspect.
Further more Janos or Janus pass is a reference to a monument with two too four faces and I doubt there ever was a map stone that the parchment map was copied from.

The Molina Map says nothing about Jesuits or Franciscans in it only bible codes. If someone could find the reference to this map in Donald Pages papers it would establish a connection to the mission chain with provenance but could still may be a Hacienda owner as all maps had a religious superstitious toning back then.

Camp Loco got its name from a story of a black man that went up there looking for treasure and then went mad. The local Sherriff had to in his own words "Put him down" for acting like a mad man when he went to investigate.
Hench the name camp "Loco"

Good material for reading though thanks!

I wonder if Bill Conley is still around. Bill published some of his findings in a series of articles that were published in Treasure Search Magazine in 1985. Bill tried to find the real source of the Molina Derroterro (also called Redotero). He didn't come up with much, but I thought I would add some things to this thread.

Bill interviewed Manual V. Ortiz (who died in 1997).Ortiz met Santiago Molina in Mexico along with his daughter. Molina was trying to sell some valuable instructions to a church treasure. Ortiz agreed to pay the $5. Santiago took out an old document and started dictating the contents to his daughter. Ortiz noted that he wasn't reading the document properly, and he agreed to pay an additional dollar to view the directions and copy them himself. This document was one of several that old Molina had dictated and sold. Ortiz asked where the old document came from. Molina told him that an army man by the name of Oliva was involved in running a Galera at Tumacacori, and because of the Apaches, the Mission and Galera were shut down and the valuables were moved to a secret hiding place. Oliva wrote the document and stored it in a bottle. He was very afraid that the authorities would search his house and find it. He then removed his original copy and replaced it with another document that contained some false and misleading information. It wasn't clear how Molina had obtained the document. The meeting between Molina and Ortiz took place about 1940. There was no map.

Meanwhile, Milton F. Rose had obtained a copy of a similar document. The Rose Printery had agreed to publish John Mitchell's 1933 book. Rose loaned his copy to Mitchell who used it for writing his book. Rose also had obtained a different document that was written in German and Spanish that had a map with some symbols. Rose gave an interview to Lawler while living in Salome in 1972. Lawler was working on some treasure magazine articles, and Rose was occupied with other things.

The historic Pete Kitchen Ranch had been sold to a man named Charley Sykes. Charlie had also got a copy of the directions. When Col. Gil Proctor bought the Ranch in 1943, he found that copy of the Molina Derroterro among the items at the Ranch. Proctor used it for content in two of his books. There was no map. Proctor said that a large black stone had been found by someone, that had a map on the under side. There may be a photo of that may floating around somewhere.

About the same time Norman G. Wallace was a civil engineer for a railroad. He was doing track layout in the U.S. and Mexico In 1944 Wallace published a story that he heard from another railroad man, The story was of a young WWI veteran that had returned from the war. The date of the tale was never confirmed by Wallace. This man had been staying with friends at the Phil Clark Ranch, which is located just North of Ruby Road. Davey Jamison (a false name) had heard of some lost mine stories and decided to do some hiking and camping. He camped in Walker Canyon and went hiking. He came upon a small stone building and a mine shaft that was nearly covered. It looked like there were sacks of ore stacked inside the tunnel. He had his camera and snapped some pictures. On the weekend a friend from Tucson came to meet him with supplies. The friend agreed to take the film back and get it developed. During the following week a terrible storm raged through S. Arizona. A visit to Davey's campsiite revealed his gear had been hit by a flash flood and he was nowhere to be found. Searchers finally had to give up looking for him. The photos he took revealed the building and mine that he had told his friend about. Over the years, Wallace was sorry that he had written the article for the 1944 Desert magazine. He was on Bill Burrud's TV Treasure Show and said that he had no additional information other than what was in the article. Wallace was no stranger to the back country. In his career he had walked many hundreds of miles while selecting and surveying rail routes in Arizona and Mexico.

The earliest expedition to recover the Galera goods was mounted out of Mexico City by Teodor Salazar in 1817. They located a tunnel that may have been the one at Camp Loco. They did have some success though they wer unable to locate any rich mines.

Bill Conley was convinced that the mines described in the Molina are all East of the Santa Cruz River. Some old maps show the San Ramon Spring and Janos Pass east of the river. Was this the misdirection that was added to the Derroterro? Gollum has stated on more than one occasion that the tunnel and massive tailing pile at Camp Loco show no signs of valuable ore. Was this the original Galera storage site?

One thing is for sure, the copied and translated Molina Derroterro is not from the Jesuit period (which ended in 1767). It could have been composed at the time of the Gasden Purchase. Most of the conclusions by the National Park Service are correct. The waybill has too many errors to be anything but a recent rendering of the information.

The map was most likely drawn sometime in the last 100 years. It is actually an easy map to understand. It is four maps in one, with relative distances as written in the Derroterro around the edge. If some has seen or photographed the "map stone", it would be nice to post the information or picture on this thread.

 

[lgadbois]

Donald Page was head quartered out of Berkley, Ca. Most of his papers are at the Bancroft Library. It was his papers though that lead me in my search for the location of the lost mission city of Ciru.

I have in my collection quite a few of his papers outlining many treasures secreted around Tucson.

I believe his papers in Ca. contain some reference to the Molina Map. But the link you provided does not come close to the many boxes of material I went through decades ago.

With the Government or state museum, you have to know what your looking for when you ask. I asked for a collection on the lost mission and was given boxes of material. I just so happened it was Donald Page that wrote those papers. But if you ask for Donald Pages papers you'll be given boxes that contain nothing on the lost mission. Makes me wonder how many other lost legends are boxed up with nobody knowing the name to ask for.

Don Page became interested in archaeology while he was a Tucson employee. His interest was sparked by his discovery of ancient ruins that were found during an excavation in the City of Tucson. Yes, he collected old documents during his lifetime, and he wrote some articles for archaeology periodicals. He appears to be a major source of information on the history of the Santa Catalinas. Page moved to CA after retirement where he continued to pursue his interest as a hobby. He died in 1958. Without documentation proving he owned a "Molina Map", this is just speculation. Santiago Molina did not sell maps, and there is no suggestion that such a map existed until sometime in the 1930s. Rose thought that the map was probably created by Ortiz.

If you look carefully at the map, you can figure out that the time period the map was created was in the last 100 years. Gary Don Oliver was attracted to the Tumacacori area by the stories written by John Mitchell. He made his first visit in 1974. After investigating the Camp Loco site, Gary became convinced that a treasure was buried in the old tunnel. He obtained the proper permits and commenced trying to reopen the old main shaft. He was able to open one entrance, but the evidence of the large tailing pile down into the canyon made him believe that he had not found the main tunnel. Gary did not get a copy of the map until shortly after the publishing of his book in 1991. He was given a xerox copy by someone, and he gave a copy to me. Since then I have seen some similar versions of this map that looked like they had been photo-shopped with some minor alterations.

John Mitchell never mentioned that he had a map. He only talked about the copy of the old document. Someone that was familiar with the Camp Loco site created that map using the directions given in the Molina Derroterro.

A man by the name of Juan Bustmente was also in possession of the Derroterro. He was well known by the treasure story writers, and he took Mitchell to some of the mine sites listed on the old document.

Tumacacori was never a Presidio. It was an old Pima village. Padre Kino had a Visita built there, but no mission building was built by either the villagers or the Jesuits. The current Tumacacori Mission was started about 1787 and never finished by the time it was abandoned. The Pima revolt of 1751 resulted in actions by the Spanish to build a Presidio at Tubac in 1752. Tubac is three miles north of Tumacacori. Over 100 Spanish colonists were killed during the 1751 revolt, and their farms destroyed. It was over fifty years before the area attracted colonists and a return of support by the Franciscan missionaries. Here is a history of Tubac:

Tubac Through Four Centuries: An Historical Resume and Analysis

Mexico won their independence from Spain in 1821. Tumacacori was active as a village and Pima community. Farming and the raising of animals again made the area prosperous, and efforts continued to finish the construction of mission building. The Apache was now a threat to the community, but the Presidio was maintained for protection of the villagers, colonists, and the missionaries. Enough of the mission building was finished and services were started in 1822. A good history of the mission was written by Frank Pinkley:

Mission of San Jose de Tumacacori

There was a Lt. Juan Maria Oliva that served under De Anza, arriving at Tubac in 1752. He was born in 1701 and was in charge of the Post until after the Jesuits were removed in 1767. I doubt if this is the Oliva, but I am sure he would have been knowledgeable about who was doing the mining in the area. Oliva is a common family name in the area. Maybe someone in his family was the one that ran the Galera and created the Molina Derroterro.

The treasure hunters and writers have long tied the treasure tales to the Jesuits. The Jesuits became aware of the expulsion order and hid their weath and church fixtures before they were arrested. The mine and geographical names used in the Derroterro are all Franciscan. The Franciscan missionaries may also have hidden the church fixtures when they were forced to leave.

If you stop and think about it, the mines, their names, and their locations weren't any big secret at the time they were operated. The only thing that would have been kept secret is the hiding of valuables. The missionaries were driven away from Tumacacori in 1824, and the Galera may have been closed at the same time. Research may provide the answers to some of these questions.

 

[cactusjumper]

egadbois,

Excellent, excellent post. Having been to both of the sites you posted, some time ago, you seem to be on the true path in this story.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo