navy button but what year?

[Heres_The_Scoop]

I have found two navy buttons and was wondering if a date could be identified, I also was wondering how many would be on a uniform from said time period because I think all of them would probably be in the ground with the two I found. I found them on separate days, I was digging what seems like a burned down house and found the first one by sight and the second was found while sifting through the dirt

 

[Kray Gelder]

Can't really tell on the lower button, although likely the same. From what I could find, the first button could be Civil War. These two buttons show the change at the end of The War of Northern Aggression. The left was used during the war, but phased out after, changing to the second, which was used up until WW2. Note on the first, the anchor fluke point is tucked behind the left wing, like yours. This photo is from Albert's Book, NA 112 on the left NA113 on the right.



Again, I may have missed something, but perhaps this may help.

 

[gunsil]

Kray, you are one of my favorite members here, but the southern boys fired on Ft Sumpter first, making them the aggressors. Jus' sayin'.

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Gunsil, no offense, but an important part of the history is missing in your view. The yankees held a heavily armed fort in the middle of Charleston Harbor, keeping both merchant ships and SC Military ships "under the gun"... in other words, under threat. Lincoln refused South Carolina's demand to withdraw, and instead he sent armed US Navy warships to resupply the fort. You could say that merely holding onto the fort was not "aggressive action"... but sending Navy warships to resupply the fort is indeed aggressive action. The South Carolina government did not give the order to fire upon the fort until news arrived that the US Navy warships were headed for Charleston with more armaments and supplies.

Lincoln, always the slick Politician, figured out a clever way to use Aggressive Action to make the Carolinians be the side who fired the first shot.

That situation was quite similar to the Russians sending nuclear missiles to Cuba in 1962. No, the Russians didn't "fire the first shot" -- but would you disagree that sending those armaments to Cuba was not Aggressive Action? When President Kennedy presented his demand to withdraw them, the Russians backed down. Lincoln refused.

 

[gunsil]

No offense taken, can't get riled up over such a subject. But, that fort was federal property, not SC property. Up here we call it more like the war to preserve the Union, to preserve the United States of America, and eventually that was the outcome. The main question was state's rights which we still have problems with in some areas of government. I think most folks are happy to be in the USA as it stands today.

 

[Kray Gelder]

Kray, you are one of my favorite members here, but the southern boys fired on Ft Sumpter first, making them the aggressors. Jus' sayin'.

Thanks for the good words, Gunsil. I appreciate your posts. Being a transplant here, from the Northwest, I have made it a point to read up on our "Civil War." Not a life's study, just trying to understand. Since living here, '75-79, '82-83, 2004 to present, and marrying a local lady in '78, you wouldn't believe the grief I have received from Carolinians. Both for being a "Yankee," and for being a white man in a black state. I'm in the middle, despised by both. I am not being dramatic. It is true.

My conclusion is the awful conflict could have been avoided, had there been some give on either side. The actual war itself, was a War of Northern Aggression, and not being pro Confederacy, I still feel it's accurate, and preferable to the Civil War term. My town, Georgetown, spawned the most virulent secessionists. The rice farmers here were rolling in money, made on the backs of slaves. Some owned 800, 1000, 1200 slaves. An enormous investment that they were not about to give up. They bear a great deal responsibility, for their very vocal and monetary support of seceding from the Union. Lincoln was looking for a spark. Charleston provided.

Anyway, it was an awful thing. A number of causes for sure. I'm not a Southerner or a Yankee. I'm a Westerner. My Missouri clan fought on both sides. Not that it matters, I don't even have the mental energy to debate it.
Thanks for mentioning that, Gunsil. I still prefer the term.

 

[Heres_The_Scoop]

Can't really tell on the lower button, although likely the same. From what I could find, the first button could be Civil War. These two buttons show the change at the end of The War of Northern Aggression. The left was used during the war, but phased out after, changing to the second, which was used up until WW2. Note on the first, the anchor fluke point is tucked behind the left wing, like yours. This photo is from Albert's Book, NA 112 on the left NA113 on the right.

View attachment 1831143

Again, I may have missed something, but perhaps this may help.

I see you said something about the fluke, on this its not in front of or behind the wing but both are visible. they are also a different style. they arent an arrow shape but more of just a triangle.

EDIT: the wings are also more shape and not as curvy

 

[Kray Gelder]

OK, you have the advantage of holding it in your hand. I'm looking at a really cruddy button, that you could have invested some time cleaning before asking what it was. Good luck with your ID. Oh, and the pic is sideways.
Considering you have computer access, google your button. Better you than me. Jeez.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I see you said something about the fluke, on this its not in front of or behind the wing but both are visible. they are also a different style. they arent an arrow shape but more of just a triangle.

EDIT: the wings are also more shape and not as curvy

I was gonna wait for you to clean and rotate but here are my authentic US Navy buttons found with other CW era buttons to compare.

 

[Heres_The_Scoop]

You guys keep telling me to clean them... well I have. and that's them being clean. Im very certain they were in a house fire so they are in rough shape, I noticed the pic was sideways but forgot to rotate it.

I also have spent quite a bit of time googling it, the reason I came here is for people with more experience. I have found some buttons with similarities but none that are close enough for me to call them the same

 

[Heres_The_Scoop]

Im not sure if this picture is much better but at least its oriented the right wayView attachment 1831812

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

You guys keep telling me to clean them... well I have. and that's them being clean. Im very certain they were in a house fire so they are in rough shape, I noticed the pic was sideways but forgot to rotate it.

I also have spent quite a bit of time googling it, the reason I came here is for people with more experience. I have found some buttons with similarities but none that are close enough for me to call them the same

My CW era buttons are not close enough? The wings are not as curvy and the anchors are more triangle shaped.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I never told you to clean them BTW that was Kray. But if you were, it would have been better for me to wait. Sorry for the misunderstanding. But if you do clean them, just use soap and water and a soft brush for starters.

When I see photos sideways, I usually go on to another post but I think I was able to rotate yours for the viewers and place them side by side. Sorry my pic is a tad off kilter and I dont have my buttons with me. Pics of the backmarks are also a big help in proper identification. The fronts look like a match to me. I think you should take a second look.

I also have spent quite a bit of time googling it,... ...I have found some buttons with similarities but none that are close enough for me to call them the same. Originally Posted by Heres_The_Scoop

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Check this out. Keep in mind there were different manufacturers with different backmarks and each one could possibly be a little different. US Military Uniform Buttons Interesting Facts - MISCELLANEOUS / OTHER - U.S. Militaria Forum

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I had a feeling people were ignoring my posts so I sent a PM to Heres the Scoop and sure enough, he missed it.

He says its a match so thats great but he would like a dateline. These Navy buttons were used during the CW but I think they were also used before and after the CW. Can anybody give a better dateline for his US Navy buttons because I forget? Thanks.

 

[Kray Gelder]

I had a feeling people were ignoring my posts so I sent a PM to Heres the Scoop and sure enough, he missed it.

He says its a match so thats great but he would like a dateline. These Navy buttons were used during the CW but I think they were also used before and after the CW. Can anybody give a better dateline for his US Navy buttons because I forget? Thanks.

Nice job on finding a match, Bigcypresshunter. I respect the time you invested to help this person.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Nice job on finding a match, Bigcypresshunter. I respect the time you invested to help this person.

TY. Im trying to bring him back into the conversation but I guess it aint happening.

 

[xr7ator]

Im very certain they were in a house fire

Actually, you are more likely digging in a trash pit where there is discarded ashes and the clothing that the buttons were on was incinerated, imo.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I think this US Navy design was used before and after the CW so its hard to call them CW buttons but I forget the exact dateline.

I cant send or receive any more private messages because my mailbox is full.