NEW Jesuit treasure trove info--I think

[PMD]

I don't usually spend a lot of time scanning old newspapers, but this COVID 19 event has me with a lot of extra time. Take a look at this article I came across. Outside of this article I cannot find any info on internet discussing. And I've verified most of the info given...….

 

[Ryano]

Cool story ! The photo of the guy holding the pirate’s skull is of George Allan England, an early sci-fi author and man-about-town. The Wikipedia entry on him says:
“England died in a hospital in New Hampshire, although there is a legend that he disappeared on a treasure hunt.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Allan_England

Can you post the rest of the story please ? It appears to be missing a page or two.

edit::: Thanks !

 

[PMD]

Sorry thought I loaded all of them.....

 

[PMD]

extra info I collected

 

[PMD]

more

 

[deducer]

I stopped reading after seeing the date "1812."

Jesuits were long gone by then.

 

[Crow]

Hello PMD

I always enjoy these newspapers but are also aware the stories are only as good as what the newspaper reporter writes. In some cases what they write is very poorly researched and some times exaggerated so much that it changes any real story entirely out of context.

The story written about the Jesuits treasure is a poorly written account of Tayopa story. The Church in Arizipe in Sonora had baptismal records pertaining to the lost mining camp of Taypoa which was abandoned several time either by Apache attacks and the expulsion of the Jesuits. The newspaper author is his article eludes to several stories but rather vague with all.

However if you want to know more about the lost Jesuit treasure check out Tayopa forum.

Cheers Crow

 

[gollum]

Hello PMD

I always enjoy these newspapers but are also aware the stories are only as good as what the newspaper reporter writes. In some cases what they write is very poorly researched and some times exaggerated so much that it changes any real story entirely out of context.

The story written about the Jesuits treasure is a poorly written account of Tayopa story. The Church in Arizipe in Sonora had baptismal records pertaining to the lost mining camp of Taypoa which was abandoned several time either by Apache attacks and the expulsion of the Jesuits. The newspaper author is his article eludes to several stories but rather vague with all.

However if you want to know more about the lost Jesuit treasure check out Tayopa forum.

Cheers Crow

I don't believe this is a story about Tayopa. Tayopa was a Silver Mine. This is a treasure cache. Tayopa is far to the South of Arizpe. This story is somewhere between Arizpe and Nacozari (actually very close to Nacozari). Likely somewhere is the Purica Mountains.

While the date of 1812 is a little disconcerting (Jesuits were disbanded by Papal Brief "Dominus Ac Redemptor" worldwide in 1773), I wouldn't count out the story completely. The only thing I can find about Eugene R. LaLiberte, is that he was born in 1885 and died nine years after this article in 1940. Nothing to say how he died though. In the three years from when the Jesuit Order was kicked out of all French Holdings in 1764 and when the Spanish did the same in 1767, the Order hid a whole CRAP-TON of treasure in many places.

Mike

 

[Crow]

Hello Mike

Perhaps...i could only find the same as you found about Eugene R. LaLiberte. Born in 1885 died in 1940.

As for the 1812 date I understand your concerns but if we look at the context that perhaps the reporter meant to say 1814 he just said a vague date. That would put the events some time after the restoration of Jesuit order....It made old crows itchy sticky beak wonder so much attention has been placed on the Jesuits pre expulsion but very little after expulsion. So I found no doubt some of you all ready know the following? I found it intriguing.

After 1814 there was 93 Jesuit priests in the collage at Denver Colorado. They was also in various missions in New Mexico and Arizona in six schools with 4363 students; 26 colleges with full courses, with 2417, and 34 preparatory and high schools with 8735 pupils.

Quite a lot of priests considering Mexico at the same time had Three members of the Jesuit who were in Mexico at the time of the Restoration formed a nucleus for its re-establishment there in 1816. In 1820, there were 32, of whom 15 were Priests and 3 scholastics, in care of 4 colleges and 3 seminaries. They were dispersed in 1821. Although invited back in 1843. There just does not seem enough Jesuits in Mexico itself to be making treasure searches.

While the numbers of priests in new Mexico territory it was back then seems rather disproportionate to the needs of New Mexico there was the possibility a few Jesuits from new Mexico made forays back into Mexico with knowledge of hidden wealth by past Jesuits before the expulsion. But Mexico was already in revolution in war of independence against Spain 1811 and also Indian uprisings made any journey back in Mexico fought with dangers. It is not beyond the realms of impossibility than some of these returning Jesuits from new Mexico made trips into Mexico between 1814 and 1821 to recover hidden wealth by the past order.

Not inconceivable either that some of treasure stories we read might be connected to that era. When Jesuits from New Mexico ventured down into Mexico to retrieve hidden caches.

Crow

 

[sdcfia]

Hello Mike

Perhaps...i could only find the same as you found about Eugene R. LaLiberte. Born in 1885 died in 1940.

As for the 1812 date I understand your concerns but if we look at the context that perhaps the reporter meant to say 1814 he just said a vague date. That would put the events some time after the restoration of Jesuit order....It made old crows itchy sticky beak wonder so much attention has been placed on the Jesuits pre expulsion but very little after expulsion. So I found no doubt some of you all ready know the following? I found it intriguing.

After 1814 there was 93 Jesuit priests in the collage at Denver Colorado. They was also in various missions in New Mexico and Arizona in six schools with 4363 students; 26 colleges with full courses, with 2417, and 34 preparatory and high schools with 8735 pupils.

Quite a lot of priests considering Mexico at the same time had Three members of the Jesuit who were in Mexico at the time of the Restoration formed a nucleus for its re-establishment there in 1816. In 1820, there were 32, of whom 15 were Priests and 3 scholastics, in care of 4 colleges and 3 seminaries. They were dispersed in 1821. Although invited back in 1843. There just does not seem enough Jesuits in Mexico itself to be making treasure searches.

While the numbers of priests in new Mexico territory it was back then seems rather disproportionate to the needs of New Mexico there was the possibility a few Jesuits from new Mexico made forays back into Mexico with knowledge of hidden wealth by past Jesuits before the expulsion. But Mexico was already in revolution in war of independence against Spain 1811 and also Indian uprisings made any journey back in Mexico fought with dangers. It is not beyond the realms of impossibility than some of these returning Jesuits from new Mexico made trips into Mexico between 1814 and 1821 to recover hidden wealth by the past order.

Not inconceivable either that some of treasure stories we read might be connected to that era. When Jesuits from New Mexico ventured down into Mexico to retrieve hidden caches.

Crow

The Jesuit presence in New Mexico began in 1868. https://jesuitscentralsouthern.org/...sence-in-New-Mexico&TN=PROJECT-20180917031950

You have possibly accepted a common error assuming that Catholics in New Mexico have always been Jesuits, when in fact, by Papal Bull New Mexico was granted exclusive dominance to the Franciscan Order, which was exercised for some 300 years or more. Marcos de Niza was a Franciscan in 1538, the priests accompanying Coronado in 1540 were Franciscans, the Royal Road to Santa Fe through El Paso was Franciscan, the settlements around Santa Fe beginning in the late 16th century were Franciscan, etc.

That said, I think it's likely Kino may have done a little covert snooping in southern NM during his time, but the Jesuit Order's Southwest activities were confined to Arizona and California prior to their New World expulsion. Jesuit treasure rumors around the Caballo Mountains do still exist, but I believe they were started by folks unaware of the Franciscan/Jesuit misidentification confusion - an easy mistake to make.

 

[Crow]

Hello sdcfia

Thank you for clarifying the date of the Jesuits in New Mexico. That was why I was intrigued. Old Crows beak was not sticky enough!. My apologies I should of given my sources. I mis interpenetrated the data given for New Mexico because confusingly they did not give a date in the paragraph.

.https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14100a.htm


I can see now my confusion believing the Jesuits had been earlier than 1868 to New Mexico. It does clear a lot of things up especially now date wise. The only forays after the expulsion the Jesuits could of possibly done from New Mexico into Mexico was from 1868 on-wards.

In regards to the original story posted. Perhaps returning Jesuits in Mexico after 1843 tried to recover hidden caches from the earlier Jesuit order? intriguing all the same.

Crow

 

[sdcfia]

Hello sdcfia

Thank you for clarifying the date of the Jesuits in New Mexico. That was why I was intrigued. Old Crows beak was not sticky enough!. My apologies I should of given my sources. I mis interpenetrated the data given for New Mexico because confusingly they did not give a date in the paragraph.

.https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14100a.htm


I can see now my confusion believing the Jesuits had been earlier than 1868 to New Mexico. It does clear a lot of things up especially now date wise. The only forays after the expulsion the Jesuits could of possibly done from New Mexico into Mexico was from 1868 on-wards.

In regards to the original story posted. Perhaps returning Jesuits in Mexico after 1843 tried to recover hidden caches from the earlier Jesuit order? intriguing all the same.

Crow

Hey Crow. It always seemed likely to me that if the Jesuits cached valuables prior to the expulsion, they would have recovered them after the ban was lifted. However, those who believe the caches still exist explain that the information pertaining to their locations was somehow lost or forgotten by the Order. That seems highly unlikely considering the capabilities of the Jesuits, IMO. Treasure hunters need to consider that these high profile alleged caches either may no longer exist or may not have existed in the first place.

 

[gollum]

Hey Crow. It always seemed likely to me that if the Jesuits cached valuables prior to the expulsion, they would have recovered them after the ban was lifted. However, those who believe the caches still exist explain that the information pertaining to their locations was somehow lost or forgotten by the Order. That seems highly unlikely considering the capabilities of the Jesuits, IMO. Treasure hunters need to consider that these high profile alleged caches either may no longer exist or may not have existed in the first place.

Actually,

It is not unlikely at all. Take for instance when the Jesuits were rounded up and arrested at about 1am on the morning of 25-26 June 1767. They were only allowed to bring the clothes on their backs, their breviaries, and a copy of Sir Thomas A Kempis' "An Imitation of Christ". I also have no doubts they were thoroughly searched and the two books they were allowed to bring were searched as well. They were marched across Mexico to the Pacific Coast. There they were loaded onto boats and shipped down to Acapulco (IIRC). From there, they were again marched across Mexico to Vera Cruz. They were kept in slave-like conditions there for months until several Spanish Ships would be willing to transport them to Italy. They were prevented from going ashore there for several more weeks. Of the 678 Jesuits that were arrested in Mexico (not counting the 16 Jesuits in their missions on the Baja Peninsula), it is believed that about 600 died on the forced marches and in the holds of the ships from starvation and diseases.

Knowing that, where pray-tell, do you think they would have been able to hide maps or instructions on how to retrieve their treasures? Some of them may have committed such things to memory, but since about 85% of them died on the journey to Italy, the chances were very great that the majority of Jesuits that held such knowledge died without being able to pass it on. This is the reason that about 70 years AFTER the restoration of the Order, the enormous cache was found in the cellars of the old Jesuit College at Rio de Janiero as it was being demolished.

I also think that each Rectorate was responsible for hiding their own wealth. This is a very good explanation for the number of stories of Jesuit Treasure being in many different places. Several years ago, I used the Rectorate Map from Father Charles Polzer SJ's book "Rules and Precepts of the Jesuit Missions of Northwestern New Spain". If you compare it with the locations of different Jesuit Treasure Stories, things begin to get interesting. Every Rectorate had its own Colegio (College) and Cabecera (Head/Headquarters). There was also a Principal Mission and its attendant missions and visitas.

Mike

PS,

......and if you don't think the Jesuits were hunting for their lost treasures:

 

[sdcfia]

Actually,

It is not unlikely at all. Take for instance when the Jesuits were rounded up and arrested at about 1am on the morning of 25-26 June 1767. They were only allowed to bring the clothes on their backs, their breviaries, and a copy of Sir Thomas A Kempis' "An Imitation of Christ". I also have no doubts they were thoroughly searched and the two books they were allowed to bring were searched as well. They were marched across Mexico to the Pacific Coast. There they were loaded onto boats and shipped down to Acapulco (IIRC). From there, they were again marched across Mexico to Vera Cruz. They were kept in slave-like conditions there for months until several Spanish Ships would be willing to transport them to Italy. They were prevented from going ashore there for several more weeks. Of the 678 Jesuits that were arrested in Mexico (not counting the 16 Jesuits in their missions on the Baja Peninsula), it is believed that about 600 died on the forced marches and in the holds of the ships from starvation and diseases.

Knowing that, where pray-tell, do you think they would have been able to hide maps or instructions on how to retrieve their treasures? Some of them may have committed such things to memory, but since about 85% of them died on the journey to Italy, the chances were very great that the majority of Jesuits that held such knowledge died without being able to pass it on. This is the reason that about 70 years AFTER the restoration of the Order, the enormous cache was found in the cellars of the old Jesuit College at Rio de Janiero as it was being demolished.

I also think that each Rectorate was responsible for hiding their own wealth. This is a very good explanation for the number of stories of Jesuit Treasure being in many different places. Several years ago, I used the Rectorate Map from Father Charles Polzer SJ's book "Rules and Precepts of the Jesuit Missions of Northwestern New Spain". If you compare it with the locations of different Jesuit Treasure Stories, things begin to get interesting. Every Rectorate had its own Colegio (College) and Cabecera (Head/Headquarters). There was also a Principal Mission and its attendant missions and visitas.

Mike

PS,

......and if you don't think the Jesuits were hunting for their lost treasures:

View attachment 1831631

Mike, you've given this explanation before (more than once) and it's a logical rationalization. Here are a couple more questions. (By the way, we're talking only about Arizona, not Brazil, Philippines, or elsewhere).

If the Jesuits were so good at accumulating and hiding valuables in southern Arizona, yet all traces from within the brothers' quite capable organization of the alleged caches were lost or were forgotten, then where did all the waybills, documents, stories, descriptions, et al, of the hidden wealth come from? If non-Jesuits remaining in Arizona (Natives, Spanish, church associates) were privy to the secrets, then why wouldn't any of them or their descendants have recovered the loot? If these folks had good information (they likely would have been involved in the capers), it seems to me recoveries would have been made shortly after the expulsion by those in the know when the intel was fresh.

Of course, it's possible recoveries were actually made hundreds of years ago by these remaining people. That said, then what about all the "evidence" that forms the motivation for today's seekers of the caches? That "evidence" - like all "evidence" of hidden treasure - are quite likely outright fabrications or have been corrupted to the point where it's worthless. Rumors, newspaper adventure yarns (ha!), fake documents, and the like may have been presented to gain notoriety (frequently the case due to human nature), but essentially have become campfire stories. The stories may be based on some old truths, yes, but the results of folks' many years of searching seem to speak for themselves. Humans will always be cannon fodder for "authentic treasure maps" and such.

Bottom line. If the alleged caches existed, IMO they were likely recovered either by people in the know in the 18th century or by the Jesuits after their ban was lifted. Or, on the other hand, if the Jesuits' Arizona mining activities were highly exaggerated from the git-go, there may not have been significant caches at all.

 

[gollum]

Mike, you've given this explanation before (more than once) and it's a logical rationalization. Here are a couple more questions. (By the way, we're talking only about Arizona, not Brazil, Philippines, or elsewhere).

If the Jesuits were so good at accumulating and hiding valuables in southern Arizona, yet all traces from within the brothers' quite capable organization of the alleged caches were lost or were forgotten, then where did all the waybills, documents, stories, descriptions, et al, of the hidden wealth come from? If non-Jesuits remaining in Arizona (Natives, Spanish, church associates) were privy to the secrets, then why wouldn't any of them or their descendants have recovered the loot? If these folks had good information (they likely would have been involved in the capers), it seems to me recoveries would have been made shortly after the expulsion by those in the know when the intel was fresh.

Of course, it's possible recoveries were actually made hundreds of years ago by these remaining people. That said, then what about all the "evidence" that forms the motivation for today's seekers of the caches? That "evidence" - like all "evidence" of hidden treasure - are quite likely outright fabrications or have been corrupted to the point where it's worthless. Rumors, newspaper adventure yarns (ha!), fake documents, and the like may have been presented to gain notoriety (frequently the case due to human nature), but essentially have become campfire stories. The stories may be based on some old truths, yes, but the results of folks' many years of searching seem to speak for themselves. Humans will always be cannon fodder for "authentic treasure maps" and such.

Bottom line. If the alleged caches existed, IMO they were likely recovered either by people in the know in the 18th century or by the Jesuits after their ban was lifted. Or, on the other hand, if the Jesuits' Arizona mining activities were highly exaggerated from the git-go, there may not have been significant caches at all.

Answers to your questions are simple:

People associated with the Order that weren't arrested easily may have known "THAT" the Jesuits hid their wealth, just not "WHERE" they hid it. Just like reports of a 250 mule train leaving Tumacacori headed North (fact). Near the location of the ORIGINAL Tumacacori Mission is a place called "Rock Corral Canyon". In this canyon is a....... you guessed it; a very large rock corral. The history of the area says that the earliest settlers found this large rock corral there when they arrived. Its also possible that the Jesuits left coded maps to where they hid their loot. Again with the Tumacacori Mission Treasure. While some have issues with Mitchell's Map which dates to about 1931, I have a copy of Judge Barnes' original map from the Priest, which is pencil on heavy manila paper which dates from mid to late 1800s. Again using the Rio de Janiero Treasure, there is a copy of the map and code found with the cache. There may be a dozen or so coded maps that nobody can decode due to the fact the Jesuits were the pre-eminent mathematicians, cryptographers, and cartographers of their day. Who knows how many coded maps are in private collections? I know of a few. The only Jesuit Cache that the code was (at least partially) figured out was Ron Quinn's 82 Pound Cache South of Tucson. However, I don't believe that cache or the one Kenworthy later found nearby had anything to do with the Suppression. I believe it was a "Martyr Cache" from the death of Padre Javier Saeta SJ in 1695. But a Jesuit Code is a Jesuit Code.

Also, the Jesuit Mining Activities were indeed extensive. But that said, probably EVERY Spanish Miner was a Catholic. Every Catholic was supposed to tithe 10% minimum of their income to the Church. Many tithed more. Many people bequeathed much of their wealth to the Church in their wills, believing they could buy their way into Heaven. The Jesuits had HUGE herds of Horses, Cattle, and Sheep. They had the largest Sugar Plantations in the New World. The Jesuit Order had many sources of revenue. If you take the time to read the Journals of the Jesuit Missionary Priests, they describe in great detail much of the wealth the Order had prior to 1767. Hardly any of that was found after their arrests. It had to have gone somewhere, but not to Rome. The Jesuits were under watch by Charles III's spies for almost a year before the arrests were made. They could not have shipped their wealth, but possibly hidden it. If each Rectorate was responsible for hiding its own wealth they wouldn't have had to transport huge amounts long distances.

Mike

 

[PMD]

I meant to dive into this further after posting but was tied up with an issue with my daughter that involved my x-wife (which I have been actively practicing social distancing with for over 12+ years). Well the court order helps ��

Anyway, I have always been fascinated about lost treasure/ mines and over the years have done a ton of research (time) on a lot of locations to the best of my onesie. I would utilize this TN web page to debunk or enhance my research (basically stealing the knowledge and time of others (as if I were a pirate, politician, or Bill Gates)). Not allowing myself to join TN and partake in knowledge or debate for fear of divulging even an ounce of info that could help someone else in the proverbial “X” marks the spot location assuming I always had that bit of info no one else had. Only to come back time and time again to this web page to realize that my research capabilities has never graduated me past a ‘virgin’. Finally realizing, all the time I could have saved, if I would have just joined years ago…..At last, the only thing I seem to be good at is securing divorce lawyers. Is their a forum for that,,,,,smgh ☹

Anyway,

You guys are great……….

Robert

 

[Oroblanco]

I meant to dive into this further after posting but was tied up with an issue with my daughter that involved my x-wife (which I have been actively practicing social distancing with for over 12+ years). Well the court order helps ��

Anyway, I have always been fascinated about lost treasure/ mines and over the years have done a ton of research (time) on a lot of locations to the best of my onesie. I would utilize this TN web page to debunk or enhance my research (basically stealing the knowledge and time of others (as if I were a pirate, politician, or Bill Gates)). Not allowing myself to join TN and partake in knowledge or debate for fear of divulging even an ounce of info that could help someone else in the proverbial “X” marks the spot location assuming I always had that bit of info no one else had. Only to come back time and time again to this web page to realize that my research capabilities has never graduated me past a ‘virgin’. Finally realizing, all the time I could have saved, if I would have just joined years ago…..At last, the only thing I seem to be good at is securing divorce lawyers. Is their a forum for that,,,,,smgh ☹

Anyway,

You guys are great……….

Robert

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank; give a man a bank and he can rob the WORLD. " --> ancient proverb

Glad you decided to join in the discussion!

Coffee?

 

[deducer]

The Jesuit presence in New Mexico began in 1868. https://jesuitscentralsouthern.org/...sence-in-New-Mexico&TN=PROJECT-20180917031950

Steve,

When the Jesuits were allowed to resume activity in 1814, they were a much different version than their first incarnation- a lot less militant and more lenient, obedient, and focused on missionary work than aggressive global domination.

While I woudn't put it past the 1814- present version of the Jesuits to try and claim ill-gotten spoils from the original Jesuits, in no way were they engaged in any more subterfuge, smuggling, or caching.

 

[markmar]

BTW, the stone maps aka PSM were made in 1816-20, and they represent the Jesuit treasure spots hidden in the Superstiton Mountains, Arizona. Were made by two Jesuits ( maybe the only who knew about the treasure ) who never have been able to make it out of the mountains alive.
The stone cross who shows the spots of the treasure, the NW written on the stone Latin heart and the Cursum Perficio map ( the central line Noto Triangulum ), have a declination of orientation, 12 degrees east of north of the direction that they have chose to use. That declination fit with that of 1816-20 for the Superstitons area.
The stone Trail map was made using the true north which is at the side opposite the dagger.

 

[Gary M Herndon]

BTW, the stone maps aka PSM were made in 1816-20, and they represent the Jesuit treasure spots hidden in the Superstiton Mountains, Arizona. Were made by two Jesuits ( maybe the only who knew about the treasure ) who never have been able to make it out of the mountains alive.
The stone cross who shows the spots of the treasure, the NW written on the stone Latin heart and the Cursum Perficio map ( the central line Noto Triangulum ), have a declination of orientation, 12 degrees east of north of the direction that they have chose to use. That declination fit with that of 1816-20 for the Superstitons area.
The stone Trail map was made using the true north which is at the side opposite the dagger.

Greetings markmar,
Where did you locate the Year date of the making of the Stone Maps? Very Intriguing since it destroys all modern fact finding facets that the "Experts have said Travis Tumlinson created the Stone Maps"..... I for one believe they are Jesuit made. And I am the only Dutch Hunter that knows where the Stone Maps trail starts and ends at. The Latin Heart or Sacred Heart, is a Huge Heart Shaped multi Treasure Vault system hidden in Arizona, (leaving plenty of room and not giving a location). But I'm going to have to Disagree with you over the NW on the Latin Heart Stone Map, because if you saw it on the "Copied" stones that were made after June 1964, and other copies during the 1990's and into the 2000. The only Stone Maps you should look at are the Original Stone Maps that The Arizona Mining and Minerals Museum. The Stone Maps that the Superstition Mountain Historical Society Museum has are the copies. ***Notice, the Original Stone Maps were made out of White Sandstone and the ONLY part of the Stone Maps that was Brown was the Insert of the Heart Stone Map. Remember this year ... 1964.
Life Magazine Photo Shoot of the so called Peralta Stone maps in Beautiful White Sandstone! 1964 Issue. The latter copies of the Sandstone maps were made out of clay or some other types of dark colored rock. The Latin Heart and other Stone Maps tell of a trail leading on a short distance. From the Mine to the Heart, his trail is only 1400-1500 feet long. In 2017, I got to see over half the the canyon but we were running out on everything so we took what we could carry. I still have the location but its kept in a safety deposit box for good reasons. Peace!