New York revolution button ID. (update)

[EARTHWORKS]

Found today at a old revolution site. Could someone ID this for me.
Thanks,
Earthworks...

 

[Iron Patch]

......the NY 2nd Bat. button is a 20th cenury reenactors button.

One question, I addressed this in an earlier reply, IF it is a reenactors button, why is there no record of any NY2nd Bat. reenactors unit?

Here is the quote from my earlier reply:

"I found this website that claims to be a "master listing" site for reenactor units and I do not see one for the 2nd Battalion New York, just the 3rd Battalion.......
http://www.revwar.com/reenact/master_list.html "

Don

Even if a unit didn't exist a person could easily buy some reproduction buttons and create his own coat. Being as serious as these folks are I think that is very possible. There might also be buttons for sale, or just a lot of ones brought along for some show and tell.

 

[RoyNajecki]

That is the button used by the recreated 2nd New York Reg't back in the 1970's-1980's. It was based on the 3rd NY button. The 2nd NY never had this button and when the unit revised their uniforms based on more documentation they stopped using this button. I used to make some of these buttons for the 2nd NY.

 

[RoyNajecki]

The button with 23 on the reverse is my Plain Flat no.23 button. I have made hundreds of these over the years. The button to the left of it looks like my Plain Flat no.11 button, which is 5/8" diameter and the typical waistcoat size. The RP button is a repro made by the Billops Corp reenactment unit in the 1970's. Lots of the loyalist/provincial reenactment units still use this button because the details are quite sharp. The real RP button is slightly domed, and this repro is flat.

 

[nhbenz]

Wow! Nice to have someone with first hand knowledge of such things here!

 

[RoyNajecki]

When it comes to figuring out if a British button is a repro or original it is fairly easy because nearly all the originals have iron loops/shanks, which often break off and cause loss of the button. But the American buttons nearly all have loops cast integral with the button, just like repro's. Most repro's are cast using centrifugical (spin casting) molds which leave a slight sprue mark on the button edge. Originals were cast with the pewter poured into a scissor mold which leaves a mark at the top of the loop/shank. But as these repro's get lost and worn it surely is going to be difficult to distinguish repro from original, because now many repro's are made in molds created from impressions of original buttons.

In the 1960's many repro's were made by referring to a photo of the original and having a die maker create a mold. Those buttons are pretty easy to identify as they usually differ in appearance from the original. Also the photos used were generally heavily touched up. I have seen buttons I've cast on eBay being sold as originals which is kind of amusing seeing a button offered for $50 that I sell for 50 cents.

 

[ironhorse]

The button with 23 on the reverse is my Plain Flat no.23 button. I have made hundreds of these over the years. The button to the left of it looks like my Plain Flat no.11 button, which is 5/8" diameter and the typical waistcoat size. The RP button is a repro made by the Billops Corp reenactment unit in the 1970's. Lots of the loyalist/provincial reenactment units still use this button because the details are quite sharp. The real RP button is slightly domed, and this repro is flat.

I'm not aware of any "slightly domed real RP" buttons!!

All the real ones I've found are flat!

Could you show me a domed one please?

 

[RoyNajecki]

The photo on the left shows the common circa 1970's repro large crown flat RP button. In the center is a repro made from an impression of an original circa 1780 large crown domed RP button. The RP button on the right is the flat small crown variety, which is made from an original. There are many varieties of original RP buttons, some small crown, some large crown, differences in the thickness of lettering, shape and detail of crown, etc. I don't suggest that all flat RP buttons are repros, but the originals I've seen with large crowns are very slightly domed. I haven't handled more than six, so flat large crown RP buttons may be legit, I just haven't seen them. Next time I see Bill McMillan I'll have to ask for the history of how the 1970's RP button came to be as I think he played a part in this reproduction. I do know that just before the Bicentennial a lot of units were making buttons based on photos shown in the circa 1920 book by Calver & Bolton, "History Written with Pick and Shovel", however few knew that some photos were heavily touched up.

The photo on the right shows the very slight dome of the original button. It isn't much of a dome but is noticeable when side by side with a flat button.

BTW - a slightly domed British regimental button is very common, probably as many were slightly domed as were flat.

Roy

 

[DCMatt]

Roy,

Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience with us. I hope you hang around as we could use a guy with your expertise in the 'What is it?'
forum.

I have noticed in the last few years at my local relic hunting club meetings that more and more reenactor buttons and "relics" are showing up - especially Civil War items here in northern Virginia. Often it is a big disappointment to the finder when he discovers his relic isn't old.

Thx again!

DCMatt

 

[NOLA_Ken]

This thread just goes to show what I love about this site.... Seriously.... What are the odds of digging a button, finding out it's a repro, and having the guy who made it come along and tell everyone the story behind it? Simply amazing! Roy, thanks for sharing your info!

 

[ironhorse]

View attachment 1286955View attachment 1286956

The photo on the left shows the common circa 1970's repro large crown flat RP button. In the center is a repro made from an impression of an original circa 1780 large crown domed RP button. The RP button on the right is the flat small crown variety, which is made from an original. There are many varieties of original RP buttons, some small crown, some large crown, differences in the thickness of lettering, shape and detail of crown, etc. I don't suggest that all flat RP buttons are repros, but the originals I've seen with large crowns are very slightly domed. I haven't handled more than six, so flat large crown RP buttons may be legit, I just haven't seen them. Next time I see Bill McMillan I'll have to ask for the history of how the 1970's RP button came to be as I think he played a part in this reproduction. I do know that just before the Bicentennial a lot of units were making buttons based on photos shown in the circa 1920 book by Calver & Bolton, "History Written with Pick and Shovel", however few knew that some photos were heavily touched up.

The photo on the right shows the very slight dome of the original button. It isn't much of a dome but is noticeable when side by side with a flat button.

BTW - a slightly domed British regimental button is very common, probably as many were slightly domed as were flat.

Roy

I am still wanting to see an original not a repro
If the reproductions are based on photos only the idea of any slightly domed buttons are false unless you have an example of a period one to back up that up
Any regimental domed buttons you can cite ?

 

[RoyNajecki]

I don't have the originals but Don Troiani does. Two of his books, "Military Buttons of the American Revolution", and the later "Insignia of Independence", have photos of many originals from his collection, other private collections, and museums. I had access to many of these buttons, took impressions with dental impression materials, and from those made epoxy buttons which in turn were placed in vulcanized rubber molds from which the reproductions are cast. The process usually results in a button that is slightly smaller than the original. For example, if the original is .97" diameter the repro is likely to be about .93" diameter. The RP buttons in the photo center and right were made from such impressions. The small crown RP button is the figure 'e' button on the Royal Provincial button page of both books. The large crown button that he owned was quite pitted, so I filled in the holes, and polished the field, so the replica looks more like it did in 1780 than when it was dug up in the 20th C.

As to regimental domed buttons that I cite, there is the 8th, 10th, 19th, and 47th Foot. I've seen only flat buttons for the Coldstream Guards, 7th, 9th, 14th, 16th, 20th, 21st, and 24th Foot. Some regiments had both flat and slightly domed buttons, such as the 3rd Foot Guards, 5th, 17th, 22nd, and 23rd Foot. As the 18th C. progressed buttons generally became flatter. Early in the century the so-called gas back button was very common. This is a hollow two-piece button, that if was solid it would be like wearing a coat of fishing sinkers. By the 1770's they were pretty rare, though re-used from older garments.

The buttons of German regiments (Hessians, Brunswick, Anspach-Bayreuth, etc) are unmarked, and tend to be a bit more domed than the marked British buttons. Though a slightly domed German button could be identical to the British 1st Foot Guards. I suspect that some of the plain unmarked tombac or thin brass (slightly domed) buttons found on Rev War sites are actually German military buttons.

As a reenactor one of the challenges and pleasures we have is discovering how to make something just like they did it 200 years ago. The problem is that some of these replicas can be nearly impossible to distinguish from the real thing. There is a man today making gas back buttons, again a common early to mid-18th C. button. If you were to lose one I suspect when it is dug up years from now it would look 200 years old. I've been asked if I could make the British military buttons as they did 200 years ago. That is the omega-shaped iron shank is set into the mold and the poured pewter wraps around the omega legs. I'm pretty sure I could do it, but I hesitate because no doubt that when the shank breaks off and the button face falls off it will definitely look like a British button lost during the war. I thought if I marked the back with the current year that would avoid confusion, but collector friends told me that unscrupulous people would polish that off, age the button, and pass it off as an original.

Time won't allow me to check this forum frequently, but if you have a question just write me a note at Roy@Najecki.com

A modern 2nd New York button started this thread. Here are some more:

 

[RoyNajecki]

Here are photos of original Rev War buttons, both British and Continental Army. The 47th Foot button is particularly interesting. It was found near Fort Ticonderoga NY under a roadside dump of old mattresses, chairs, etc. The back of the button shows the iron shank cast into the pewter button. Finding a British button with an intact shank is not common. I took these photos years ago before I had a digital camera. On some you can distinguish domed from flat buttons.

As reenactors we often have events at historic sites where Rev War soldiers actually were present. Of course anything we lose or drop on those sites could be confused with original artifacts. Most of these buttons were found on sites that reenactors have not done events, or prior to when reenactments took place (ie prior to the 1960's).