Now that the stone maps are out of the way, no movie/series....what's next?

[markmar]

Wayne

Maybe the proper person who who knows the proper words to enter the treasure cave , passed through .

 

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[coazon de oro]

Howdy Wayne,

That also looks like a man on a boat pointing where he is going? If it is a giant serpent, it could be Aztec related, so to would be a boat if he is pointing South.

Homar

 

[somehiker]

Wayne

Maybe the proper person who who knows the proper words to enter the treasure cave , passed through .

If there WERE any words, they wouldn't have been Yavapai (Yuman) or Apache (Athabascan).
More likely Hohokam or Salado (Nahua)....IMO.... originally from the Sinagua region up Flagstaff way, or even Kayenta area.
The story you speak of also involves two bowls, and blue and white stones I believe. There might be something to it, since some of my photos, shot from across the canyon and enlarged on my monitor, MAY indicate there is a selection of intact pottery on display in several places nearby. As such, all this could be the basis from which that story originated.



I've misplaced a couple of other shots.
If I find them later, I'll post them.

 

[somehiker]

Howdy Wayne,

That also looks like a man on a boat pointing where he is going? If it is a giant serpent, it could be Aztec related, so to would be a boat if he is pointing South.

Homar

I see what you mean by the man in the boat, but no, the snake is pointing WNW lower left to upper right. Even has a forked tongue.
The shot spans about 80 yards, but it's another 300 yds long at least.
The two insets are additional items of interest.

 

[markmar]

If there WERE any words, they wouldn't have been Yavapai (Yuman) or Apache (Athabascan).
More likely Hohokam or Salado (Nahua)....IMO.... originally from the Sinagua region up Flagstaff way, or even Kayenta area.
The story you speak of also involves two bowls, and blue and white stones I believe. There might be something to it, since some of my photos, shot from across the canyon and enlarged on my monitor, MAY indicate there is a selection of intact pottery on display in several places nearby. As such, all this could be the basis from which that story originated.

View attachment 1668795

I've misplaced a couple of other shots.
If I find them later, I'll post them.

IMO , the words are very ancient , before Hohokam , but the story with the bowls is more recent . The Snake was Hohokam's idol and after became name ( Coatl ) of the Aztec religious leaders .
The picture wth the Chicomostoc cave , amost " tells " where is located the cave .

 

[deducer]

deducer,

I hear you, and what it seems to me is that Aileen didn't give a rat's patootie about the stones. She may have mentioned it to some of her friend, or family, but maybe didn't get questioned by those who had an interest in them if they could just question Travis. Most women don't have the same interest as their husbands. They just know he has a lot of "stuff" in his shop, or can't tell the difference from a shotgun, and a rifle in her husbands collection. Had she owned a cell phone back then, it wouldn't be a stretch to think that she would just have a ton of selfies as she waited in the car.
Heck I have a hat rack from a 14 pointer, and my wife keeps telling me to cut off the drop tine so it won't look as bad.

Homar, I think it's a mistake to assume what a person may or may not know, or what they are interested in, especially judging solely on the basis of their sex. I think this mentality cost us all a gold mine when otherwise solid investigators like Peck, Magill, et al (and even current investigators) passed up the opportunity to thoroughly interview Aileen and/or their daughter about being there when the Stone Maps were "discovered." That likely would have settled once and for all if the discovery was a total fabrication.

 

[coazon de oro]

Homar, I think it's a mistake to assume what a person may or may not know, or what they are interested in, especially judging solely on the basis of their sex. I think this mentality cost us all a gold mine when otherwise solid investigators like Peck, Magill, et al (and even current investigators) passed up the opportunity to thoroughly interview Aileen and/or their daughter about being there when the Stone Maps were "discovered." That likely would have settled once and for all if the discovery was a total fabrication.

Howdy deducer,

I seriously doubt that an interview with Aileen would have settled anything for you if Travis's word was not good enough for you. How sure are you that Peck, Magill, or any other "solid" investigator didn't ask Aileen that question? Maybe her answer was not worth printing, but that is not what proves the PSM's to be real, they speak for themselves. What is costing you, and others a gold mine, is the failure to understand them, and to understand Waltz's directions.

Homar

 

[somehiker]

IMO , the words are very ancient , before Hohokam , but the story with the bowls is more recent . The Snake was Hohokam's idol and after became name ( Coatl ) of the Aztec religious leaders .
The picture wth the Chicomostoc cave , amost " tells " where is located the cave .

There is something else I've seen, which may have inspired that "entrance/exit" in itself.....perhaps a "shrine" of some kind.



And another view nearby, which could give rise to possible "connections" between some of the legends and the actual history from which they were drawn.

Part way up a steep, rough and brushy ravine.....



Odd that this heart would exhibit both a hooked and dotted line as well as evidence of a crack across it's left lobe, is it not ?
With a pit or sink hole almost directly across the gully from it.....and a circle of stones ?
And if the object which I have outlined should turn out to be a reclining figure holding a bowl on it's mid section, that would be remarkable.



Insofar as the Duran codex illustration might be an accurate depiction of the landscape which could be seen from the departure point,
the distant horizon and mountains suggest a high place above a large valley setting. Other than that, I don't see anything in particular which would put a pin on a modern map.

However, this particular departure, with it's portrayal of two male figures carrying "sacred bundles" and the "female warrior" (Itzpaplotl) must be based on the journey and subsequent events also related via the Codex "Mapa de Quantinchan 2"......



Itzpaplotl....(Flint or Obsidian Butterfly)



BTW... The "shrine" in the first photo is located within the crevice just above the middle of the arrow.

 

[deducer]

Howdy deducer,

I seriously doubt that an interview with Aileen would have settled anything for you if Travis's word was not good enough for you. How sure are you that Peck, Magill, or any other "solid" investigator didn't ask Aileen that question? Maybe her answer was not worth printing, but that is not what proves the PSM's to be real, they speak for themselves. What is costing you, and others a gold mine, is the failure to understand them, and to understand Waltz's directions.

Homar

I have not been able to locate any substantial interviews done by any of those Tumlinson era researchers as far as Aileen or Janine, that's on paper. Maybe I missed something, somewhere.

My questioning the "discovery" of the Stone Maps does not mean I am questioning their provenance. I know from having been privileged to first-hand experiences, that they are for real.

Doesn't it also strike you as being too coincidental that Travis was interested in stone-carving at an early age, then by happenstance finds carved Stone Maps later on in adult life? Methinks the cart was ahead of the horse in this "tale." As the letter from Grace and Mitch to Bernice and Jack on July 5, 1965 indicates: "it (the maps) entered the family many years ago with Jack's Grandfather (Pegleg Tumlinson). Not widely known, however."

 

[Al D]

As the letter from Grace and Mitch to Bernice and Jack on July 5, 1965 indicates: "it (the maps) entered the family many years ago with Jack's Grandfather (Pegleg Tumlinson). Not widely known, however."

There is the key to understanding the whole story of the PSM’s and why Travis was so obsessed with them.

 

[coazon de oro]

I have not been able to locate any substantial interviews done by any of those Tumlinson era researchers as far as Aileen or Janine, that's on paper. Maybe I missed something, somewhere.

My questioning the "discovery" of the Stone Maps does not mean I am questioning their provenance. I know from having been privileged to first-hand experiences, that they are for real.

Doesn't it also strike you as being too coincidental that Travis was interested in stone-carving at an early age, then by happenstance finds carved Stone Maps later on in adult life? Methinks the cart was ahead of the horse in this "tale." As the letter from Grace and Mitch to Bernice and Jack on July 5, 1965 indicates: "it (the maps) entered the family many years ago with Jack's Grandfather (Pegleg Tumlinson). Not widely known, however."

Howdy deducer,

The PSM's provenance validates their discovery story. The fact that Travis was incapable of carving them because of his ignorance of the Spanish language, and the fact that he was incapable of having buried them so precisely as I showed you a long time ago, also support the story of their discovery.
Travis lived in an area which had a lot of sandstone, in an era when kids played outside all the time. He was not the only one carving on those rocks in his area, so it does not really mean he had an interest in stone-carving, and it doesn't make it a questionable coincidence in my eyes.
Travis's story of his discovery of the PSM's has been damaged by many who try to debunk it. Grace and Mitch were wrong to assume that Travis's Grandfather "Pegleg" Tumlinson knew anything about those stones. J. Frank Dobie spent a lot of time with Pegleg as Dobie gathered treasure stories for his books, and no stone map treasure story ever came out of that.

Homar

 

[somehiker]

Homar, I think it's a mistake to assume what a person may or may not know, or what they are interested in, especially judging solely on the basis of their sex. I think this mentality cost us all a gold mine when otherwise solid investigators like Peck, Magill, et al (and even current investigators) passed up the opportunity to thoroughly interview Aileen and/or their daughter about being there when the Stone Maps were "discovered." That likely would have settled once and for all if the discovery was a total fabrication.

A timeline problem, rather than failure of due diligence.
Alleen Tumlinson passed away July 11,1963 and it's unlikely that her adoptive parents would allowed Janie to be interviewed by Peck, his partners, or anyone else just one year after her mother's death.

Regards: Wayne

 

[deducer]

A timeline problem, rather than failure of due diligence.
Alleen Tumlinson passed away July 11,1963 and it's unlikely that her adoptive parents would allowed Janie to be interviewed by Peck, his partners, or anyone else just one year after her mother's death.

Regards: Wayne

While Peck's efforts as far as his dedication (i.e., physical and monetary) towards solving the Stone Maps did peak during the '60's, and the bulk of Gary Cundiff's collection on his website are from this era, we should not forget that Peck only moved to Phoenix in 1971 and lived there until 1979, semi-retiring in 1987 in Mesa and later in Gold Canyon, and fully retired in 1995 when he devoted all his time to his search. Janie was alive at this time, and either he and/or other serious researchers would have had the opportunity to ask her to recount, rather than merely vouch for the authenticity of what happened. Although she would have been only around 10 at the time, that's not outside the realms of being able to recount what happened, to a satisfactory extent.

 

[deducer]

Howdy deducer,

The PSM's provenance validates their discovery story. The fact that Travis was incapable of carving them because of his ignorance of the Spanish language, and the fact that he was incapable of having buried them so precisely as I showed you a long time ago, also support the story of their discovery.
Travis lived in an area which had a lot of sandstone, in an era when kids played outside all the time. He was not the only one carving on those rocks in his area, so it does not really mean he had an interest in stone-carving, and it doesn't make it a questionable coincidence in my eyes.
Travis's story of his discovery of the PSM's has been damaged by many who try to debunk it. Grace and Mitch were wrong to assume that Travis's Grandfather "Pegleg" Tumlinson knew anything about those stones. J. Frank Dobie spent a lot of time with Pegleg as Dobie gathered treasure stories for his books, and no stone map treasure story ever came out of that.

Homar

Homar,

Considering the extent of the secrecy that the Tumlinsons maintain even to this day, in regard to what exactly it was that Pegleg passed on to them as far as the Stone Maps, it is not implausible to assume that Pegleg also withheld this information from Dobie who was a very popular, well-known author at the time of the publication of "Coronado's children" (1931). I don't think any self-respecting treasure hunter would reveal everything s/he knew.

What makes you so sure that Grace and Mitch were wrong about Pegleg not knowing anything about the Stone Maps?

You make the claim that Travis was not the "only one carving on rocks in his area." Are you able to conclusively show that to be true?

I don't understand what you mean when you say he was incapable of burying those stones precisely?

Now this is not to say that Travis didn't find or dig up anything around the area he claimed to have found the Stone Maps. The subsequent discovery of the Latin Heart conclusively shows that.

 

[markmar]

There is something else I've seen, which may have inspired that "entrance/exit" in itself.....perhaps a "shrine" of some kind.

View attachment 1669441

And another view nearby, which could give rise to possible "connections" between some of the legends and the actual history from which they were drawn.

Part way up a steep, rough and brushy ravine.....

View attachment 1669446

Odd that this heart would exhibit both a hooked and dotted line as well as evidence of a crack across it's left lobe, is it not ?
With a pit or sink hole almost directly across the gully from it.....and a circle of stones ?
And if the object which I have outlined should turn out to be a reclining figure holding a bowl on it's mid section, that would be remarkable.

View attachment 1669455

Insofar as the Duran codex illustration might be an accurate depiction of the landscape which could be seen from the departure point,
the distant horizon and mountains suggest a high place above a large valley setting. Other than that, I don't see anything in particular which would put a pin on a modern map.

However, this particular departure, with it's portrayal of two male figures carrying "sacred bundles" and the "female warrior" (Itzpaplotl) must be based on the journey and subsequent events also related via the Codex "Mapa de Quantinchan 2"......

View attachment 1669454

Itzpaplotl....(Flint or Obsidian Butterfly)
View attachment 1669456
View attachment 1669457

BTW... The "shrine" in the first photo is located within the crevice just above the middle of the arrow.

In the Chicomostoc pic , I was talking about the mouth of the mountain lion ( not jaguar ) which has the shape of the last part of the trail from the stone map .
Don't forget Injunbro ( tnet member ) wrote how he and his party did a ceremony at the sacred cave in the Supers , which supposed to be the cave from where the ancient people came out when they stopped to be cave dwellers .

 

[somehiker]

While Peck's efforts as far as his dedication (i.e., physical and monetary) towards solving the Stone Maps did peak during the '60's, and the bulk of Gary Cundiff's collection on his website are from this era, we should not forget that Peck only moved to Phoenix in 1971 and lived there until 1979, semi-retiring in 1987 in Mesa and later in Gold Canyon, and fully retired in 1995 when he devoted all his time to his search. Janie was alive at this time, and either he and/or other serious researchers would have had the opportunity to ask her to recount, rather than merely vouch for the authenticity of what happened. Although she would have been only around 10 at the time, that's not outside the realms of being able to recount what happened, to a satisfactory extent.

Alice Jane was born in 1953, so I'm not sure what she could have remembered about the circumstances surrounding Travis' actions prior to say, 1960.
And even at 10, I doubt the family would have permitted any contact whatsoever. And from '53 till at least '58, it's also unlikely she would have seen anything away from wherever Travis and Alleen and herself may have stayed while in the mountains.

 

[deducer]

Alice Jane was born in 1953, so I'm not sure what she could have remembered about the circumstances surrounding Travis' actions prior to say, 1960.
And even at 10, I doubt the family would have permitted any contact whatsoever. And from '53 till at least '58, it's also unlikely she would have seen anything away from wherever Travis and Alleen and herself may have stayed while in the mountains.

These are all valid points. I still would have asked her, even as an adult, about what happened that day or what she knew of what happened on that day. As you and all other parents know- it's never a good thing to underestimate a child's ability to decipher any adult conversation they overhear or are in the presence of. And over the years, she had probably picked up quite a bit of information.

 

[wrmickel1]

These are all valid points. I still would have asked her, even as an adult, about what happened that day or what she knew of what happened on that day. As you and all other parents know- it's never a good thing to underestimate a child's ability to decipher any adult conversation they overhear or are in the presence of. And over the years, she had probably picked up quite a bit of information.

She would of said, Her dad found them as he said. Ask Gollum he talked to her. Or ask RG, ohh
wait the sidewinder never new her or even the Family.

Wrmickel1

 

[coazon de oro]

Homar,

Considering the extent of the secrecy that the Tumlinsons maintain even to this day, in regard to what exactly it was that Pegleg passed on to them as far as the Stone Maps, it is not implausible to assume that Pegleg also withheld this information from Dobie who was a very popular, well-known author at the time of the publication of "Coronado's children" (1931). I don't think any self-respecting treasure hunter would reveal everything s/he knew.

What makes you so sure that Grace and Mitch were wrong about Pegleg not knowing anything about the Stone Maps?

You make the claim that Travis was not the "only one carving on rocks in his area." Are you able to conclusively show that to be true?

I don't understand what you mean when you say he was incapable of burying those stones precisely?

Now this is not to say that Travis didn't find or dig up anything around the area he claimed to have found the Stone Maps. The subsequent discovery of the Latin Heart conclusively shows that.

Howdy deducer,

The secrecy may just be a gag order, but I doubt that Peg Leg left them anything related to the PSM's. The idea that he did was born from assumptions. As I told you before Travis's discovery of the PSM's has been damaged by many who try to debunk it, and for some reason most people tend to believe those assumptions rather than ignore them, it's easier I guess. When it was found that Peg Leg Tumlinson was Travis's Grandfather, and a former treasurer hunter that had several treasure maps, it was assumed that there was a connection there.

Travis's Uncle, Robert Tumlinson, also planted that idea into Robert Garman as he swindled him as R.G. put it. You may remember R. T.'s letter to R. G., telling him he has some stone maps. Garman ended up with a map he thought was a Peg Leg map, and used it to search for 25 years. That map was the Peralta Tesora Mappa that has Robert Tumlinson's writing all over it, it is not a Peralta map.

Azmula claimed that the PSM's came from a church in Arizpe, Sonora, and that Peg Leg brought them to Arizona. Even Larry Webb believed Don Shades story that Peg Leg had come to Arizona with 500 Mexicans to look for a Spanish treasure. This all came from Ray Howland's claim of finding Peg Leg's diary of that expedition, but it turns out that Peg Leg was illiterate, go figure.

Tom K. also fell for a story that a Mexican bracero while building a fence for John Hart, found the PSM's, and sold them to Robert Tumlinson in Florence for ten dollars. Then R. G. comes around, gathers all these stories, and forms his own. The bulk of what he found was Travis, and his Uncles ideas as to where the PSM's led, they are not blueprints. R.G. also claimed Travis bought some smaller stone maps from Charlie Miller. I have no doubt that Charlie may have swindled Travis since Charlie's find of some stone maps, after Travis's discovery, and Charlie's find of Ruth's map, and the rifle that killed Ruth is a very questionable coincidence. R.G. also claimed Travis never touched the PSM's in the museum, yet he uses these maps, instead of the small ones he claimed Travis bought to show where his 1847 site was emptied, and where the end of the trail should be.

You had once asked me to prove what I was posting, at that time some were saying Travis made, and buried the stone maps. So I pm'ed you showing you how precisely the PSM's had been buried, making it impossible for Travis to have done it, and also impossible for any Jesuit to have placed them there.

On Travis's carving on sandstone, in those days, all kids played outside, and carved on sandstone, not just Travis. On Garry's visit there, he was shown a dirt road that had about 150 yards of exposed sandstone with names from the whole neighborhood. It was conclusive for Garry, as it is for me.

Homar

 

[sdcfia]

Homar,

Considering the extent of the secrecy that the Tumlinsons maintain even to this day, in regard to what exactly it was that Pegleg passed on to them as far as the Stone Maps, it is not implausible to assume that Pegleg also withheld this information from Dobie who was a very popular, well-known author at the time of the publication of "Coronado's children" (1931). I don't think any self-respecting treasure hunter would reveal everything s/he knew.

What makes you so sure that Grace and Mitch were wrong about Pegleg not knowing anything about the Stone Maps?

You make the claim that Travis was not the "only one carving on rocks in his area." Are you able to conclusively show that to be true?

I don't understand what you mean when you say he was incapable of burying those stones precisely?

Now this is not to say that Travis didn't find or dig up anything around the area he claimed to have found the Stone Maps. The subsequent discovery of the Latin Heart conclusively shows that.

In my humble opinion, the number one aspect of interest and the one most worthy of pursuing in this saga is Pegleg Tumlinson. All other angles, carved rocks, and players in the drama are merely derivatives, steeped in layers of disinformation. Dobie was a great folklorist, not a detective, and was more interested in a good campfire story, with the facts being secondary to his purpose. Pegleg may have enjoyed the attention Dobie gave him, but you can bet the farm he revealed nothing of importance to the writer. Human nature demands it.