Oak Island: Was something even there.

[gazzahk]

Ok gazzahk. But first let's define "adequately counter".

Because I don't want to bump into a situation where .... if I haven't conclusively shut every-single door .... that ... therefore the claim (a found treasure in this case) is still, of necessity "true". In other words, I can already admit that without video evidence, polygraphs, proof of forged interviews, blah blah , that you won't still simply involve me in the type of crazy "possible" scenarios.

Example of how common sense logic doesn't seem to prevail here as "proofs" : If someone tries to give proof of difficulty of pits this deep, someone else points to the pyramids as proof of engineering marvels. Never mind that they took 70 yrs. and entire city populations to build the pyramids ! If you consider counter claims like that, to be satisfactory to 'diss my efforts to explain your links.. I need to know ahead of time.

Hence, define "adequately counter" in such a way that we're on the same page.

You ask a lot my friend.. You want me to say what it takes to convince me.. That is difficult.

Ok here goes

I believe there must be a source of the legend. I do not find it very credible that so much effort was spent digging a hole found by three boys unless there was some treasure at some time (ie shown by sudden unexplained increase in unexplained wealth). Therefore what the descendants said would provide an adequate explanation of why later people thought there was treasure there.

Therefore all I really need to be shown is that the claimed increase in wealth did not happen (or has a more plausible reason) and/ or the cross is not as old as the original find of the pit and/or a plausible reason that people actually believed treasure ever existed in the pit - as these are the three most convincing things that lead to my view.

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

Ahhhh, but see.... you've fallen for the Jesuit conspiracy. They just make you *think* they're sincerely just missionaries (with vows of poverty, caring for others, etc....). It's all just a giant trick to keep you off the track of knowing where their treasure vaults are. Pretty clever of them, eh ?

Those lousy cabbages. Spend all their time carving secret codes and symbols to let people know where they have hidden stuff. Instead of just hiding it and keeping their mouths shut like good Methodists. ;-)

 

[ECS]

Okay, so the same scenario, but change it to 10 people leaving a known treasure behind without saying anything to anyone and all of them keeping it a secret and not going back for it while living a crappy life.

... still Really?

That is the way of most treasure legends, the treasure is left behind, no one talks or goes back, and those involved either are all killed or died, but somehow the story comes out and a legend is born.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... I do not find it very credible that so much effort was spent digging a hole found by three boys.....

Really ? Ok, my dad (born 1930) told me the following: Upon hearing the news of Pearl Harbor on the radio in 1941 .... rushed with his neighborhood fellow 11 yrs. old school chums in the neighborhood . To dig a fox-hole hiding place in their backyard in a farm town of remote Texas cow country town. Why ? Because the Japanese were *sure to attack inland central Texas at any minute*. Hence certainly this attack was imminent, Right ? Otherwise, how else can you explain my dad's digging the foxhole ... if ... most certainly .... the japanese zeros weren't poised to strike Gateseville Texas ?

Do you see how the fact of "3 boys digging a hole" does not mean that "... therefore ... a treasure exists" ? It doesn't logically follow. Young boys do ALL SORTS OF SILLY THINGS And ... in the boy's mind's eyes.... FOR GOOD REASON (just like my dad's "good reasons".)

 

[Tom_in_CA]

You ask a lot my friend.. You want me to say what it takes to convince me.. ......

And for good reason ! So that I'm not running around trying to dispel notions that will fall on deaf ears . My time (and yours) is valuable . Ie.: I don't want any "moving goal-posts" !

You've got to agree that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. And it's not on the skeptic to disprove it, but it's up to the claimant to prove it. So that if I provide alternate explanations, the possibility that someone can find some crazy conspiracy way it *could* be still "possible", does mean that ... ergo... I haven't proved my point of "likely". Otherwise, the debate is endless ! Like trying to prove santa claus doesn't exist. Someone merely claims that perhaps Santa is invisible, or came when I was away taking a leak, etc.....

....I believe there must be a source of the legend. ....

The "source of the legend" is likely "treasure fever gone awry". The truth that human psychology wants .... sseeooo hard to believe in a treasure (lest you be "left out"). That you pass on and propagate any conjecture, theory, clue, claim, etc..... And the person who receives it, likewise does the same.

.... ie shown by sudden unexplained increase in unexplained wealth.....

You are stating a point here, that I'd have to study and see about. I have not read any links yet, so I can't comment on this. But your starting premise, if true, needs to be addressed. But how is this a "starting premise" ? I'll be there's alternate explanations. There are lots of people who get "unexplained increases" in wealth, that can be explained (once facts are sorted out).

Eg.: I have had increased wealth. And I metal detect and treasure hunt. And I suppose that ... 200 yrs. from now, someone could find some reference to "Tom in CA" had increased wealth. Plus "Tom in CA" metal detects". Therefore "Tom in CA must've found Pancho Villa's hidden cache in Salinas, CA".

But the truth is, ... no, I haven't found Pancho Via's treasure. Tom in CA worked his @ss off, dispatching street sweepers to paving jobs. And earned his $$ by hard work and tears.

To which someone .... 200 yrs. from now ... will find some counter-evidence that "Tom in CA goofed off in front of his 'puter playing Tetris and gabbing with md'ing friends, therefore it's not possible that he made his wealth via street sweepers". You see how the debate will never end ? Aaarrgghhh.

.... Therefore what the descendants said would provide an adequate explanation of why later people thought there was treasure there....

... Therefore all I really need to be shown is that the claimed increase in wealth did not happen (or has a more plausible reason) ... .

What the "descendants said" is highly subject to the telephone game. I can give you humorous examples, of how in a single few years (heck, in a single week! ), the telephone game amongst friends, family, or total strangers, can come up with ALL SORTS of seemingly iron clad "treasures". If you want, I can give you those examples. Or I can go straight on to your link, and explain alternatives of that.

 

[gazzahk]

And for good reason ! So that I'm not running around trying to dispel notions that will fall on deaf ears . My time (and yours) is valuable . Ie.: I don't want any "moving goal-posts" !

You are stating a point here, that I'd have to study and see about. I have not read any links yet, so I can't comment on this. But your starting premise, if true, needs to be addressed. .

Thanks Tom. I really do appreciate your time. I find this whole story fascinating.. Even if it is the case no treasure ever come out of the pit there is no doubt that huge amounts have been put in since it was first discovered.. This place could almost be the origin of the term "that thing (boat. money waster etc) is just a money pit!"

I am looking forward to hearing your thoughts on the referenced blog articles.

It really is not so much I am a 'true believer' in the treasure story it is more the case that I do not like people dismissing things based on false and misleading claims (ie from looking at that poor resolution image of that cross I can tell it is fake). I do believe the mystery is worthy of investigation. I do believe the whole episode/story is of significant historical interest.

My biggest frustration with the whole series is there lack of investigation into the most plausible theories and the time they waste on just 'kook' theories.

I hoped when they got that investigative journalist on board he would research the descendants claims in more detail. Instead he just brought up another of what I feel to be totally implausible theories.

My view is really that if there ever was treasure on oak Island (and I accept that is a big IF) the most plausible of everything I have seen and read is that the people who found it took it the day it was found. Everyone else has just been digging the first hole deeper and discovering the left overs of previous treasure seekers.

I really hope that the Laginas put some of the millions that they are spending into proper research of the sisters claims...

 

[gazzahk]

"Tom in CA" had increased wealth. Plus "Tom in CA" metal detects". Therefore "Tom in CA must've found Pancho Villa's hidden cache in Salinas, CA".

Really.. Where did you find it exactly GPS co-ordinates please. Is there more left... WOW I cannot believe that treasure was found!

Are there any members here that want to finance me go after the treasure found by Tom... I will give you 5% of the find for a US$50,000 investment. I have a reliable source of information that proves my claim (but will only share it with the serious investor)

I am only looking for 10 investors so better get in quick or you will miss out.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Thanks Tom. I really do appreciate your time. I find this whole story fascinating......

Yes, I too find it fascinating. Because when I was about 10 yrs. old (1971-ish), my dad had a past issue collection of back-issues of Reader's Digest magazines. Including .. you guessed it ... the famous 1965 issue/article on Oak Island ! I read it at 10-ish yrs. old. Presto ! A treasure hunter was born ! As .... no doubt .... others of my age range who read the same article, like the Lagina brothers, were also inspired by that same article. Doh !

But fast forward to the 2000's. After chasing all sorts of local treasure leads, either fumble fingers coin-hunt sites, or "treasures" all during my 20s, 30s, and 40s. After awhile, you begin to look back over the decades of success and failures, and wonder the "patterns". And when I quizz myself of "why didn't I forsee the silly-ness of that lead?" Or conversely "why didn't I chase that lead before my friend's beat me to the draw of that virgin stage stop that yielded the goodies?". And with such 20/20 hindsight of "site clues" and supposed "evidences", I extrapolate that out to bigger picture things like this Oak Island thing, and see the same trends. The same "dreamy eyed" starting points, blah blah blah.

And just as apply my own hard-knocks lessons of research critique techniques (so as not to waste time going to unfruitful sites), so too can the same logic be applied to large scale international schemes of things.

Ok, you sound sincere. I'll try to get to your links in the coming days. Thanx.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

In the meantime, a true story to show:

A) how fast these legends begin,

B) How iron-clad they can appear to be,

C) How 150 yrs. later, they can never be put down.

About 15 yrs. ago, a city near me was tearing out their oldtown sidewalks to put in new walks. A buddy of mine was md'ing the tear outs. But they would tear out a section, and re-cement it, all in the same day. So he did not have the option of waiting till the workers cut out at 5pm. He had no choice but to work it during their lunch hour, while sections sat exposed.

The project took several weeks, since they only did a few store front length each day, moving up 5 blocks, then back the other side of the street.

A few workers saw him, and were curious/skeptical to what he was doing. So he learned to "grease the wheels" of their curiosity by passing out common V nickels, IH's, etc.... They were amazed ! And each time, at the conclusion of their lunch hour, they'd come over to see what his latest finds were. That sort of got him allowed, or whatever you want to call it

One day my friend found a gold colored charm or amulet type thing. In the shape of an owl, about the size of a chess piece. And there was some sort of red jewel things in the owl's eyes. So when it came time for the workers to ask what he'd found, he showed them the owl thing. And mused"it's probably 1800's" (based on the age of coins he'd found in that block). And mused "it might be gold" (based on the color). And pointing to the eyes "they look like rubies". The workers were besides themselves in glee and fascination!

That night my friend got home and sorted his targets. When he got to the owl thing, .... cleaning it up, putting it under magnification, he saw that it was only gold plated. Not gold. And as for the eyes: Turns out they were just chips of red glass. Not "rubies". In other words, it was just cheap 1920's costume jewelry. So he chucked it in the trash.

The next day, my friend was out there plying his luck again. Out of the corner of his eye, he saw a tractor driver eyeing him. Turns out it was a new worker, that had not been there on any of the previous days. After awhile, the equipment operator eventually makes his way over. Now watching my friend intently. My friend smiles, turns off his machine and engages the new worker in chit chat. The usual "what are you finding?', blah blah It turns out my friend hadn't found anything of interest that day.

At that point, the worker told my friend that a guy with a detector had been there the day before "and found a gold coin from the 1800's" blah blah blah. My friend was in utter shock ! He immediately thought that someone must've come by after he left and .... darn it .... must've found a gold coin he'd missed ! So he pressed the worker for details. As the worker spelled out the details, a curious word leaked out. "owl" !

Turns out that this worker had heard his fellow workers talking around the water cooler that morning. My friend busted up laughing and told the worker: "No that was me you're talking about. And no it wasn't gold. And no those weren't rubies. And no it wasn't from the 1800's. An no, no gold coins were found. Only an IH and a saloon token", etc....

But the worker wouldn't believe him !! The worker naturally assumed some other md'r came after my friend. Because this worker had it on GOOD FIRST HAND AUTHORITY from eye-witnesses (his co-workers) who saw the coins. Saw the solid gold with rubies, blah blah blah . See how quickly this "telephone game" evolved? A single night !

And 100 yrs. from now, someone reading that worker's memoir's will rationalize in the same way the Oak Island faithful are doing. Someone will go seeking permission to dig up all the downtown sidewalks in Gilroy, CA, to "get the rest of the gold". When the city says "no", well gee, that will become ALL THE MORE EVIDENCE of the presence of gold, eh? That the city is trying to keep hidden and hushed!

And then treasure seekers will debate the type of tractors used to pull up the concrete, the pay rate to the workers, the thickness of the concrete, the fact that only credentialed duly appointed workers were allowed on the site, whether or not they dried fish there or not, blah blah blah.

But no one will ever go back and say "wait a minute .... isn't it possible there's no treasure there, and every single thing can be explained in other ways ?"

 

[n2mini]

"IF" the treasure was brought over from a far away land, with a team of engineers ( probably only a few people ) to bury it, and had 50 or 100 or however many working hands to do the labor, they ( the laborers ) would probably not even know where they were at, let alone know how to navigate back there on their on.. So you'd only need a handful of Officers to keep quite.. Who knows maybe some of the laborers did talk once they got back home but who where they talking to? Fellow laborers, family members etc, who have no idea if it's true, where they were at, or the means to get there...

 

[Tom_in_CA]

"IF" the treasure was brought over from a far away land, with a team of engineers ( probably only a few people ) to bury it, and had 50 or 100 or however many working hands to do the labor, they ( the laborers ) would probably not even know where they were at, let alone know how to navigate back there on their on.. So you'd only need a handful of Officers to keep quite.. Who knows maybe some of the laborers did talk once they got back home but who where they talking to? Fellow laborers, family members etc, who have no idea if it's true, where they were at, or the means to get there...

Why even muse all those pro's & con's ? You're doing the same thing as in my true life example in #49: Strategizing on all the depths, # of men needed, distances traveled to do it, motives to tell or not tell others, etc... etc... etc...

As if ... the whole treasure thing is even a "given" to begin with. Why is that a given premise ? How about if there's no treasure, nor ever was? So all the theories on how it could be done (and debates of methods, depths, distances, ID's of ancillary targets, etc...) are all a moot point ?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

P.S. to N2mini: I felt you were giving that premise, because it appeared implicit when you start your post #50 with : " If the treasure was brought..." Versus: "If A treasure was brought ...."

Your first way of wording that , made it sound like a treasure is there, and now it's just a debate of distance it was brought, and so forth. If I mis-understood, my apologies.

 

[n2mini]

To the past 2 posts: I was just trying to show how it could happen for those that say no way that many people kept quite all these years and didn't go back for it themselves. Assuming there is or was anything to go back for. Tom in CA, I worded that it that mainly as I think there was at some point something buried there. What or if it is still there I don't know..
I can't prove anything is or was there. I just try to show how it could be possible, or how it could have happened to the ones saying it couldn't have happened like this or that etc... No one can prove it DID happen till they actually find a vault or chest even if it is empty now...Doesn't have to have treasure in it for the "tell" to be true at this point.. I do believe that anyone searching in the last 100 or so years are partly in it to prove they found it as much as actually getting rich from it.. Some of the early searchers and the x-slave may have had better reasons to keep quite about it.. SO we may never know. Once the Brothers leave it will probably be years or decades before anyone is willing to give it a go with as much as it will cost them to buy the rights from them, or whoever owns it, unless they are willing to see it cheap just to recoup some of their money at some point..

 

[b3y0nd3r]

Well I learned two things:

First: I have to be very careful how to word my posts as it it seems more people are concerned with the verbage than the content.

Second: It was wrong of me to expect people to stay on topic. I Had a whole series of posts as well as articles and such as to try to nail down the lore, however, after reading every single post on this thread alone, it seems people are more concerned about who is right and wrong, rather than have a discussion about the topic.

I am disgusted. Lesson learned.

This thread is dead and I am throwing in the towel. Mods please delete or lock this thread thank you.

 

[G.I.B.]

Well, the mods won't delete the thread because you didn't hear what you wanted to hear. They probably won't lock it either.

You got on a public forum and asked for peoples opinions.

You got them.

Your topic: "Was something even there" seems to have been the topic that was actually discussed, with peoples opinions on why and why not.

I'm sorry you didn't hear the specifics you were after.

 

[n2mini]

This whole Oak Island Forum is pretty much about opinions. There are very few facts about any of it. Some of the stuff we take as fact is actually hear say itself... There is no way to "reel people in" to have a nice disscussion. Take a look at all the different threads, yet most are about the same thing one way or another.. Only thing you can do is stay on top of your thread. Post what your after and keep posting in it to try to keep it on topic as much as possible. You heard some stuff on your topic and claim to have other stuff to discuss along with it so now post in here what the next phase is, and maybe people will play along on that topic, then do your next phase topic etc etc...

 

[Bud Aurum]

Initiatory Entry Field

Hello All, First time poster. I have to share an article I ran across some time ago.
It came to mind when the debate opened as to why it would be buried so deep.
But what if it was built from inside out?
For a different perspective:

"From the Akashic Records of Thoth:

"In the ancient days of the Mazur, after the death of Atlantis, these
people came to the region of North America that is now Nova Scotia.
They brought with them the 'Green Sea' Stone, one of two of the
original 'Right to Rule' stones which had been given to their first
generation by Melchizedek in Lemuria and brought with the Grail Family
from there into Atlantis. The other half of the stone, the Emerald
Table, was by then in the keeping of Thoth Raismes (an incarnation of
Melchizedek). This latter would eventually be placed upon the vault
of Osiris beneath the Temple of the Risen One (Giza) in Egypt. (Note:
these two stone slabs are not to be confused with other ancient Right
to Rule stones, such as the 'Stone of Destiny'.)

"The Mazur were led by their Wise Man or Seer to an entrance which led
into the recesses of the Earth, wherein were located a large labyrinth
of natural caverns. It was in these caverns that the Mazur placed the
sacred things which they had managed to salvage from the Deluge,
including the Green Sea Table of Melchizedek. After awhile, the Mazur
left this location after having sealed away most of their sacred
relics and tools of power within the caverns. Before they crossed the
sea into Great Britain and eventually the European continent, they set
up an 'initiatory entry field' upon a hill over a tunnel into one of
the sealed caverns. This hill would later become an island -- Oak
Island in Mahone Bay. The Oak Island pit and lesser, man-made
labyrinth was never intended for physical entry. It was put into
place as a passage of Spirit Initiation. When the initiate 'passed
the tests,' he would be given the knowledge as to the location and
means to access the actual physical entrance to the sealed caverns
below. This physical entrance is not on the island, but some miles
away, on the mainland of Nova Scotia. Since that time, several
different peoples with partial knowledge concerning the sealed caverns
of the Mazur have reinforced and added to the original design of the
'initiatory field' on Oak Island. More on this later.

The full article is located at Nova Scotia Sacred Space notes by William Buehler
http://tnet.forumfoundry.com/forums/images/smilies/hello.gif
Your Bud Aurum

 

[Raparee]

Hello All, First time poster. I have to share an article I ran across some time ago.
It came to mind when the debate opened as to why it would be buried so deep.
But what if it was built from inside out?
For a different perspective:

"From the Akashic Records of Thoth:

"In the ancient days of the Mazur, after the death of Atlantis, these
people came to the region of North America that is now Nova Scotia.
They brought with them the 'Green Sea' Stone, one of two of the
original 'Right to Rule' stones which had been given to their first
generation by Melchizedek in Lemuria and brought with the Grail Family
from there into Atlantis. The other half of the stone, the Emerald
Table, was by then in the keeping of Thoth Raismes (an incarnation of
Melchizedek). This latter would eventually be placed upon the vault
of Osiris beneath the Temple of the Risen One (Giza) in Egypt. (Note:
these two stone slabs are not to be confused with other ancient Right
to Rule stones, such as the 'Stone of Destiny'.)

"The Mazur were led by their Wise Man or Seer to an entrance which led
into the recesses of the Earth, wherein were located a large labyrinth
of natural caverns. It was in these caverns that the Mazur placed the
sacred things which they had managed to salvage from the Deluge,
including the Green Sea Table of Melchizedek. After awhile, the Mazur
left this location after having sealed away most of their sacred
relics and tools of power within the caverns. Before they crossed the
sea into Great Britain and eventually the European continent, they set
up an 'initiatory entry field' upon a hill over a tunnel into one of
the sealed caverns. This hill would later become an island -- Oak
Island in Mahone Bay. The Oak Island pit and lesser, man-made
labyrinth was never intended for physical entry. It was put into
place as a passage of Spirit Initiation. When the initiate 'passed
the tests,' he would be given the knowledge as to the location and
means to access the actual physical entrance to the sealed caverns
below. This physical entrance is not on the island, but some miles
away, on the mainland of Nova Scotia. Since that time, several
different peoples with partial knowledge concerning the sealed caverns
of the Mazur have reinforced and added to the original design of the
'initiatory field' on Oak Island. More on this later.

The full article is located at Nova Scotia Sacred Space notes by William Buehler
http://tnet.forumfoundry.com/forums/images/smilies/hello.gif
Your Bud Aurum

...ok...

 

[ECS]

...
I am disgusted. Lesson learned.

This thread is dead and I am throwing in the towel. Mods please delete or lock this thread thank you.

...and you could have been a contender.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

..... I just try to show how it could be possible, or how it could have happened to the ones saying it couldn't have happened like this or that etc... ..

This would be a little like going over the details how it's *technically* feasible to build a house on the top of Mt. Everest. Someone could go to great lengths to show that .... with enough Sherpas, enough money, enough time, etc... that you can't say that it can't be done. Heck, and the motive is even there: GREAT VIEWS from Mt. Everest, eh ? That's quite a selling point in real estate for-sale ads after all.

But this is failing to ask: Would anyone really want or need to build a house on the top of Mt. Everest ? OF COURSE NOT. Hence the debate of "is it possible? " is a moot point

JMHO