Placing a value on the French monument removed by the Spanish and lost at Sea.

signumops

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The document is a challenge to GME's Admiralty arrest, on its face, but some very important issues are exposed. If you actually READ the document it says:

"The permit was amended on August 19, 2015, to allow limited test excavation and diagnostic artifact recovery for shipwreck identification. Exh. B. The amendment also allowed the limited use of prop wash deflectors and suction dredges of less than 10 inches in diameter to perform the limited test excavations only. Exh. B, ¶ A.1.e. Prior to recovering any diagnostic artifacts, GME was to notify the Division of Historical Resources. Exh. B, ¶ A.1.c."

This means that a hydraulic dredge with a maximum throat of 10 inches can be used, OR a blower, so GME did have a blower permissable in its permit. LAMP used a hydraulic dredge with negative results.

"In the admiralty complaint, GME alleged to have found an unknown wrecked vessel in state waters while operating under validly issued permits form the State of Florida, U.S. Army Corp of Engineers, and the Florida Department of Environmental Protection. GME alleges the wrecked vessel is abandoned and its "…cargo and/or artifacts are not firmly affixed in the submerged lands nor in coralline formations such that the use of tools of excavation is required in order to move the bottom sediments to gain access to the shipwreck, its cargo, or any part thereof."

GME made no mention of "embedded", but pointed out that the material was not "affixed". Florida asserts the definition of "embedded" as a qualification for its own claim that Admiralty arrest is not qualified in this instance because "excavation" was required. The judge accepted that argument without testing the meaning of the word "embedded", rather avoiding the meaning and simply noting that excavation by use of tools was required.

Merriam-Webster:
Synonym Discussion of affix
fasten, fix, attach, affix mean to make something stay firmly in place.

Merriam-Webster:
Definition of embedded
2 : enclosed closely in or as if in a matrix : set firmly into a mass or material

To affect an Admiralty Arrest, the finder must supply the court with something taken from the wreck, attesting to the existence of the wreck, to wit in this particular instance: cannon balls, ballast stones, ect. Cleverly enough, the ASA as administered in Florida does not permit the finder to remove the necessary evidence for an Admiralty claim, and in this case, that collection of evidence for an Admiralty arrest by GME was used as the excuse to nullify GME's permit. Gotcha!

NPS states that the U.S. Congress intends for States shipwreck management programs to be consistent with the ASA and these “Guidelines.”

So here is the guideline for excavation of shipwrecks per the NPS "Guidelines"

"Guideline 6: Ground-truth shipwrecks and anomalies using non-destructive methods.

All shipwrecks and unverified anomalies located during a remote sensing survey should be ground-truthed through sea-bottom inspection--either by remotely operated vehicle or by divers. Shipwrecks should be examined to determine the nature, extent and integrity of the Wrecked vessel, surviving cargo, and associated scattered wreckage, and to locate any visible human remains. Shipwrecks should be examined in as non-destructive and non-disturbing a manner as possible. Determinations of a shipwreck's type, age, condition and, when possible, specific identity should be made without test excavations or removal of artifacts or other materials. When test excavations are necessary or artifacts or other materials must be removed (such as when the shipwreck is embedded or encrusted), the amount to be excavated or removed should be as limited as possible to make evaluations, and be done using archeological methods. This is particularly important in cases where historical value is suspected. Any artifacts or other materials recovered from historic shipwrecks should be conseived by a nautical conservator."

The court made this observation in its judgement:

"In fact, Dr. Duggins stated in his report that “BAR archaeologists did not encounter any of the visibly diagnostic cultural material at the site because it was covered with sediment." Imagine that.

And once more I reiterate Duggin's remark of record in this case: "This excavation pit was likely created via blowers and were outside the scope of the limited test excavations authorized under GME’s permit."

There was no investigation by the judge as to what this arbitrary opinion was based upon, and Duggin's claim that he'd never encountered a sunken ship as found in "Pirates of the Caribbean" might tell us that he's never seen anything like the wreckage found on some of the 1715 Fleet wrecks where some material can be found firmly "affixed" to solid rock, some artifacts are "embedded" in sand, and some artifacts are simply rolling around on occasion in the littoral trough.

The idea that divers are going to use 10-inch hydraulic dredges to remove 7 feet of sand over a widely dispersed wreck scatter in the near-shore waters of Cape Canaveral is comical. It also means that we will never get at the whole story in our lifetime.
 

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Black Duck

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Black Duck

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Once again Seeker "not true" blowers were allowed in our permit and 7 other permits we completed ( how do you think we did the reports with everything we found for 3 years)
and in fact we had permission to bring up certain artifacts, no the facts before you speak.
 

AllAtSea

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Case now closed. Shipwreck awarded to France on the basis that the preponderance of evidence points to this being the La Trinite wreck, and that La Trinite was a French naval vessel.

Importantly, all remaining motions are terminated without a decision, including the State of Florida motion of February 23 2018 (link to text of motion above) that concerned, in part, the interpretation of 'embedded'. Recent misleading claims on this thread that the motion had been granted were and are false.
 

ARC

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Case now closed. Shipwreck awarded to France on the basis that the preponderance of evidence points to this being the La Trinite wreck, and that La Trinite was a French naval vessel.

Importantly, all remaining motions are terminated without a decision, including the State of Florida motion of February 23 2018 (link to text of motion above) that concerned, in part, the interpretation of 'embedded'. Recent misleading claims on this thread that the motion had been granted were and are false.

So... whats next for the fate of the ship ?

France to begin recovery / documentation ?

OR...

Will that be US at OUR expense as a "favor" to France ?
 

ARC

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Does anyone else see in their mind the words... "on loan from France" ?

What kills me is... they claim that this ship is France's "history"...

But in reality this wreck is FLORIDA's history... spawned from a French ships berth.

Its final resting place should be... just that.

What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. heh
 

huntsman53

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Once again, the State of Florida, the Courts and the supposed Country of the ship's origin screw another Salvage Company. This ruling and others just like it, make it more probable that secretive raping of shipwrecks will become more rampant. Salvors will definitely have to rethink strategies to survive and rethink working with any State and/or Country that has a history of screwing them.

It is past the time, when Salvors, other Salvage entities and those with interests should unite and campaign to vote out the Politicians and to purge the Bureaucracy and the Employees (people) that continually work against Salvors and other Salvage interests and bend over backwards to ensure that a shipwreck and it's cargo are awarded to the Country that in all definition and reasoning, abandoned the same long ago. Not only do Salvors and other Salvage interests suffer from such actions but also the Public and the United States as a whole suffer as well.
 

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AllAtSea

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If you can, it is worthwhile reading the judgement in full, all 35 pages of it. It includes a careful and impressive analysis of the historical evidence, leaving little doubt that the wreck is that of Ribault's flagship La Trinite. If the wreck had been excavated by GME, sooner or later it would have become obvious that this was the case and that France is the legal owner.

GME should be proud to be the discoverers of perhaps the most historically significant shipwreck found in US waters.
 

releventchair

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Sue France for littering.
(e) A motor vehicle, vessel, aircraft, container, crane, winch, or machine used to dump litter that exceeds 500 pounds in weight or 100 cubic feet in volume is declared contraband and is subject to forfeiture in the same manner as provided in ss. 932.703 and 932.704.
Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine
 

Darren in NC

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GME should be proud to be the discoverers of perhaps the most historically significant shipwreck found in US waters.

The difference is that LAMP was funded and salaries were paid with when they looked a few years ago, even with no results. The business world would collapse with this logic, and no non-profit would ever get funded. GME funded themselves, and I don't see the state paying for the solid results they produced. No one at the state is upset about lack of results from LAMP. In fact, they continue to look to LAMP and state archies for input (with taxpayer dollars, no less), and give no compensation or heed to the group who produced the "most significant shipwreck found in US waters." You can color it however you please, but your logic is flawed on so many levels.
 

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Salvor6

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Maybe they can make a documentary film and recoup some of their money. After all, a documentary about "the most significant shipwreck found in US waters" has to be worth something.
 

AllAtSea

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The difference is that LAMP was funded and salaries were paid when they looked a few years ago, even with no results. In the business world would collapse with this logic, and no non-profit would ever get funded. GME funded themselves, and I don't see the state paying for the solid results they produced. No one at the state is upset about lack of results from LAMP. In fact, they continue to look to LAMP and state archies for input, and give no compensation or heed to the group who produced the "most significant shipwreck found in US waters." You can color it however you please, but your logic is flawed on so many levels.

You misread me. GME have lost out, and probably will take a big financial hit from this. In a sense, they are unfortunate in having located a wreck of great historic and archaeological interest. It is the second time GME have been unfortunate in this sense. That does not take away from the pride they should feel at having been the discoverers. A wider discussion of the relative merits of commercial versus public funded archaeology was not intended and I have no intention of opening up that old sore.
 

huntsman53

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GME should be proud to be the discoverers of perhaps the most historically significant shipwreck found in US waters.

It is very hard for anyone or any company to be proud when your out millions of dollars and will likely not get a contract to salvage the items from the shipwreck for France!! Even if France wanted to contract GME to do the salvaging, the State of Florida and it's Archies would likely intervene to keep GME from doing so.

Maybe besides the campaign I noted above, the Scuba Supply Shops and any businesses that supply Oxygen, Nitrogen and any other parts and accessories for scuba diving should and can do so if they choose to Boycott any State of Florida Archies/Employees that might work on the recording and salvaging of the shipwreck and any Companies and their' crews/individuals that are non-Florida Salvors/Salvage Companies from any purchases whatsoever. Some may think this extreme but hey, the State of Florida plays dirty, so, so can others play dirty as well.
 

capt dom

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Maybe they can make a documentary film and recoup some of their money. After all, a documentary about "the most significant shipwreck found in US waters" has to be worth something.

This is worth a sneaker full of crap.... The only people who make money on documentaries are their producers. I am sorry the folks who actually put the work in to find this potentially historic, yet presently yet to be identified vessel are going to be needing anal surgery from the Magistrate, State of Florida and LAMB butt packers
 

AllAtSea

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It is very hard for anyone or any company to be proud when your out millions of dollars and will likely not get a contract to salvage the items from the shipwreck for France!! Even if France wanted to contract GME to do the salvaging, the State of Florida and it's Archies would likely intervene to keep GME from doing so.

Of course the noteworthy achievement is a consolation only, but it is an achievement. This is surely obvious.
 

Darren in NC

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You misread me. GME have lost out, and probably will take a big financial hit from this. In a sense, they are unfortunate in having located a wreck of great historic and archaeological interest. It is the second time GME have been unfortunate in this sense. That does not take away from the pride they should feel at having been the discoverers. A wider discussion of the relative merits of commercial versus public funded archaeology was not intended and I have no intention of opening up that old sore.

I concede to your smaller argument of pride they should feel. Your desire to steer clear of the wider argument is noble, but is quite an endeavor among this crowd. Your even-keel demeanor in responding is admirable, too. I am curious, though. Why join Tnet now to share this? What's your interest and background?

Best to you,
Darren
 

huntsman53

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I wonder if GME can get the Courts to allow a neutral entity (company, person or persons) to view and record everything salvaged from the shipwreck as it is brought up, while it is being conserved and afterwards to see if any items are brought to the surface that positively identifies the shipwreck. If the identity of the shipwreck is other than the Trinite, I believe that GME could go back to Court and file a new arrest of the shipwreck if they make their intentions clear to the Court and the Court approves it before any actual salvage begins.
 

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AllAtSea

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I wonder if GME can get the Courts to allow a neutral entity (person) to view and record everything salvaged from the shipwreck as it is brought up, while it is being conserved and afterwards to see if any items are brought to the surface that positively identifies the shipwreck. If the identity of the shipwreck is other than the Trinity, I believe that GME could go back to Court and file a new arrest of the shipwreck if they make their intentions clear to the Court and the Court approves it before any actual salvage begins.

Read the judgement. There is no reasonable logic that avoids the conclusion it is La Trinite.
 

AllAtSea

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Jun 30, 2018
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I concede to your smaller argument of pride they should feel. Your desire to steer clear of the wider argument is noble, but is quite an endeavor among this crowd. Your even-keel demeanor in responding is admirable, too. I am curious, though. Why join Tnet now to share this? What's your interest and background?

Best to you,
Darren

I know the GME crew, and I like them. This whole situation with Ribault/La Trinite and Cape Canaveral is just really shitty for them. IMV, they made a mistake flying speculative arguments for alternative interpretations, though they had little choice given France then Florida intervened in the arrest process. Nonetheless they did find that wreck, and no-one can extinguish that fact.
 

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