Potential LDM ore testing and comparisons.

[Idahodutch]

Hello all,
Up until recently, if anybody had some potential LDM ore to have checked out, the go to guy was (correct me if I’m wrong), I believe AZ Dave 35, aka, Dave Cook.

I’m sure anybody desiring to find someone able to provide these services, would most likely be in a position to also pay for said services.

Has anyone heard if someone has publicly stepped up to help fill those shoes?
Sincerely, Idaho Dutch
aka, Russ Ragsdale

 

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[axer]

I am going to try this place once I have ore samples.

FastXRF.com | XRF Testing Near Me | 3707 E Southern Ave, Mesa, AZ 85206, USA

Premium XRF Metal Testing Service: Non-Destructive, Precise, and Affordable. Available Only at FastXRF.com

fastxrf.com

Also, Arizona Gold and Silver on McDowell will XRF test for free.

 

[Cubfan64]

I am going to try this place once I have ore samples.

FastXRF.com | XRF Testing Near Me | 3707 E Southern Ave, Mesa, AZ 85206, USA

Premium XRF Metal Testing Service: Non-Destructive, Precise, and Affordable. Available Only at FastXRF.com

fastxrf.com

Also, Arizona Gold and Silver on McDowell will XRF test for free.

Just be aware, there are limitations to these hand held XRF devices

 

[Al D]

Russ
as you know, I do not believe that there is a viable gold mine in the superstitions, my position is that all of the gold found by various people over the years has been high grade ore that came from other mines located throughout northern Sonora, this gold was the Kings Royal fifth which was transported to a location , The Superstition Mountains, for processing.
this explains the vast variety of gold samples found there and why no mine has been found. Recall the gold in rose quartz from Wagners ledge. No one has even located a source for rose quartz within those mountains, let alone a gold vein.
I am not trying to stir up any negativity or debate, just want to point out some alternative theory that could help to unravel this enigma.
my own research has turned up substantial evidence to support this, much did come from the work done by Kenworthy.
best regards
alan

 

[Idahodutch]

Russ
as you know, I do not believe that there is a viable gold mine in the superstitions, my position is that all of the gold found by various people over the years has been high grade ore that came from other mines located throughout northern Sonora, this gold was the Kings Royal fifth which was transported to a location , The Superstition Mountains, for processing.
this explains the vast variety of gold samples found there and why no mine has been found. Recall the gold in rose quartz from Wagners ledge. No one has even located a source for rose quartz within those mountains, let alone a gold vein.
I am not trying to stir up any negativity or debate, just want to point out some alternative theory that could help to unravel this enigma.
my own research has turned up substantial evidence to support this, much did come from the work done by Kenworthy.
best regards
alan

There is a possibility of what you suggest. 🤷🏼‍♂️
I hope one day, that we get to find out 🥹 even if it’s different than we think 🥴
Good to see you visiting the forums 👍😁
Russ

 

[Geoffnotjeff]

There is a possibility of what you suggest. 🤷🏼‍♂️
I hope one day, that we get to find out 🥹 even if it’s different than we think 🥴
Good to see you visiting the forums 👍😁
Russ

Would you consider this to be a source of of rose quartz?

 

[DizzyDigger]

That is a gorgeous quartz vein..

 

[Idahodutch]

Would you consider this to be a source of of rose quartz? View attachment 2111616 View attachment 2111615

GeoffnotJeff,
I’m sure a geologist could explain it better.

I have heard that rose quartz can turn white, if exposed to sunlight for some period of time.

Here are a couple pictures, of rose quartz I got from a website.

Idahodutch

 

[Clay Diggins]

Your quartz rock appears to be ordinary chalcedony. It isn't rose quartz. To know more you will need to have it tested.

XRF is really good at determining the composition of a homogeneous substance. If it's the same inside as it is outside XRF is your best choice. XRF is not good at determining the composition of something that is of variable composition like your rock sample.

Here's why XRF (X Ray Florescence) is not a good choice for your use.
Elements that fluoresce with low energy, such as silica (quartz) at 1.7 keV, will only return photons from 20 μm deep into a SiO2 (quartz) matrix. Gold even less so at 18 μm deep. 20 μm is about 790 millionths of an inch.

On a curved surface, like your sample only a very small area can be read by XRF. Typically for more accuracy a sample like yours would need to have a flat area ground on the surface, or better yet crush the sample to a very fine powder.

XRF would be a poor choice for sampling quartz based ores. If you can't see the gold on the surface the XRF isn't going to find it inside.

A much better choice for ore samples is the fire assay. In a fire assay the rock is crushed, mixed and melted into it's component parts. The values are weighed and compared one to the other. It is the standard for gold ores as well as most metallic ores. Fire assays usually cost around $50.

There are more accurate tests than the fire assay but they also involve destruction of your sample and much greater expense.

 

[Idahodutch]

Good evening Clay,
That was a very informative post, I thank you for posting it.
I have a question concerning fire assay, if a fire assay was never done on any LDM ore, but only an Xrf scan….. would, or could the fire assay provide the same information?
Sincerely,
Idahodutch

 

[Clay Diggins]

An XRF only supplies information on a very small area to a minimal depth. XRF, depending on the software installed and the model can detect many different elements but not all elements at the same time. I don't know what model and settings were used for that particular XRF scan but I could probably tell from looking at the results.

Fire assay is more limited on detection of different elements but it is far superior for quantifying the metals in a whole sample. That's why it has been the standard for gold miners for thousands of years. Even today a fire assay is considered essential , and often legally required, for providing realistic assays for investors.

If the XRF scan was limited to only exposed gold it could provide a sort of profile of the gold content. If the XRF scan included other portions of the sample it can't be used to profile the gold constituents. It's unlikely that the XRF scan was only of the exposed gold. Fire assay, by it's very nature, physically separates the constituents of the sample. You end up with virtually pure fractions of the original samples components from fire assay and the results are quantified by weight or chemical reduction and weighing.

Gold in a ring or cut stone that has been worn will always show a higher purity of gold on XRF than a fire assay. The fire assay measures the whole gold purity of the sample by weight comparison. The XRF, only having a limited view of the gold on the very surface, measures the enriched gold found on the surface. This enriched gold is a common effect due to the non gold metals in the gold being removed from the surface due to oxidation and exposure to environmental acid from skin and the atmosphere. Gold is non reactive to oxidation and acids so the surface will have a higher gold percentage than the gold just below the surface.

XRF has it's uses. Understanding it's limitations and fire assay is essential to understanding which method is best for purpose. Comparing an XRF sample of a cut stone to a fire assay of the same stone can provide very different results. That's OK because it would be silly to fire assay jewels and it would be misleading to assay mine ore with an XRF.

 

[Idahodutch]

Thank you Clay,
That was a very informative post, and it does help 👍😁

From everything that I’ve studied, concerning LDM, there are two different gold ores …. 2 different mines…. One way up high in the ravine, the other down lower, just straight across the canyon from the hidden camp….. approximately 400’ below the upper mine.

The ore we all associate as LDM gold ore, came from the upper mine, way up high.

No ore from the lower mine has ever been tested… we have only a description from Waltz.
If anyone wants to match up ore, then the upper mine needs to be opened up, to get ore. According to waltz, the upper mine was 75’ deep, last time he went down in it.

It should be noted, that Waltz abandon the upper mine, as nowhere near as rich as the mine across of the hidden camp.

My trip into the mountains is postponed until early spring, 2024.

If the gold deposit in the upper mine, can be read, well that’s the gold of the matchbox.

So it sort of sounds like a can of worms, and for what?? Just to say I found it. 🥺
If we are able to get samples, then I guess we’ll see. Waltz even said there are two

There would be a few that I would let know, and send pictures. Then I’m done 😁
Nothing declared in public. 🤷🏼‍♂️👍

Clay, I’m glad you’re sharing expertise with us.
Seems many don’t like to be held accountable anymore, but I do. …. If someone can show me that there is another place in those mountains, that is home to all the clues …. And I mean the mass majority of them, I guarantee I would stop my search.
But alas, folk pick and choose a few clues, and plague the threads with nonsense.
There is no reasoning with some.

So I’m not even going to try anymore. 🥳🥳👍

I actually joined T-Net, (since at the time I was a full fledged cripple,) to share my search ….. because of all the clues that fit that spot.

I think we will most likely make it to Rendesvous this year.

I’m not mad at anybody here, I just haven’t met you guys.
Hopefully that can change.

Clay, thanks again 😎
Everybody else, I hope to see you at the rendezvous. (Clay too🤓)

Sincerely, Idaho Dutch
Aka: Russ Ragsdale

 

[Clay Diggins]

If anyone wants to match up ore, then the upper mine needs to be opened up, to get ore. According to waltz, the upper mine was 75’ deep, last time he went down in it.

If the mine was 75 ft deep a minimum of 1,500 cubic ft of material was removed and dumped on the surface. Look on the surface of that 1,500 cubic feet of material and you will easily find your ore samples with no need to enter the mine.

The waste pile should be pretty easy to find. It's hard to hide a quarter million pounds of rock (120 tons) with a volume of 1,500 cubic ft.

 

[Idahodutch]

If the mine was 75 ft deep a minimum of 1,500 cubic ft of material was removed and dumped on the surface. Look on the surface of that 1,500 cubic feet of material and you will easily find your ore samples with no need to enter the mine.

The waste pile should be pretty easy to find. It's hard to hide a quarter million pounds of rock (120 tons) with a volume of 1,500 cubic ft.

An excellent point. I’ve been here thinking ….
Here is what I have understood about that upper mine.
- the gold had just been discovered and barely worked, when news of the Indians wiping out the workers down by the salt reached the guys working further south in the mountains.

Things did not get cleaned up in the rush to get out of dodge. (Approximately 1847)

Next we have Waltz and Weiser, but there were Mexicans working the deposit, when they got there. (Approximately 1867-8 to maybe 1872-3) nobody knows.
So at least 20 years, and maybe 25 year’s in between.

Waltz made no mention of climbing over or around a mine dump., yet up ahead was the mine. He did say after they confirmed the richness of the lower gold deposit, then they put the 6 Mexicans bodies, down into the upper mine, and abandoned it.

Then Waltz, after Weiser’s death, spent a winter concealing everything.

He said there was no trace left of being there….

I don’t have an answer. If I make it this spring, maybe I’ll find something out?

Idahodutch

 

[Clay Diggins]

Then Waltz, after Weiser’s death, spent a winter concealing everything.

He said there was no trace left of being there….

I've seen this claim before. It makes no sense. Obviously people who repeat this have no knowledge or experience with mining.

It's physically impossible to put all the material you took out of a mine shaft back into the same mine shaft. Not ever going to happen.

In mining as well as gardening or even digging a hole in your backyard to bury your cat you have to account for the swell of the removed material. All soil and rock swells as it's dug.

Soil and Rock - Bulk Factors

Soil and rock expansion - or swell - after mining.

www.engineeringtoolbox.com

The swell factor for the rocks in your area of interest ranges from about 50% to 80%. In other words the volume of the rock after it's mined is 150% to 180% of the volume of the shaft from which it was removed.

Over time there will be up to 10% shrinkage of the waste rock pile as it settles and compacts but it will never shrink to it's prior volume.

So it's a myth that you can fill the mine back up and cover your tracks- it's not gonna happen. Physics gets in the way every time.

_________

Lets spend some fantasy time and assume the laws of physics don't apply in this one instance of the "upper mine". 120 tons of rock dumped out of the shaft and then moved up a very steep hill and back down a steep slope to the bottom of the shaft again. Do it alone with canvas buckets.

One winter generously considered as 4 months, 120 days. One ton a day for 120 days would be a chore for one man but it just might be possible if one were well supplied, committed, healthy and took no time off.

So let's fantasize that's what happened and magically the laws of physics were suspended and all that rock fit right back into the mine shaft. What about the other mine? A different winter? More magic suspension of the laws of physics?
_________

To anyone who knows mining the hidden mine theory is obvious BS made up by someone with no knowledge of mining or even what happens when you dig a hole in your own back yard. Every time I see a story about a "hidden" mine I have to chuckle. You might hide a mine entrance with brush or rock but you can't hide the waste rock that was already mined.

 

[DizzyDigger]

Clay, I can't speak for others, but I for one very much appreciate you taking the time and sharing your knowledge. Some folks seem to find your comments humorous; I find them full of common sense.

Heard about the LDM since I was a kid, but never had the itch to go chase it, although I very much enjoy reading the adventures of others who have invested so much effort into locating it.

 

[Idahodutch]

I've seen this claim before. It makes no sense. Obviously people who repeat this have no knowledge or experience with mining.

It's physically impossible to put all the material you took out of a mine shaft back into the same mine shaft. Not ever going to happen.

In mining as well as gardening or even digging a hole in your backyard to bury your cat you have to account for the swell of the removed material. All soil and rock swells as it's dug.

Soil and Rock - Bulk Factors

Soil and rock expansion - or swell - after mining.

www.engineeringtoolbox.com

The swell factor for the rocks in your area of interest ranges from about 50% to 80%. In other words the volume of the rock after it's mined is 150% to 180% of the volume of the shaft from which it was removed.

Over time there will be up to 10% shrinkage of the waste rock pile as it settles and compacts but it will never shrink to it's prior volume.

So it's a myth that you can fill the mine back up and cover your tracks- it's not gonna happen. Physics gets in the way every time.

_________

Lets spend some fantasy time and assume the laws of physics don't apply in this one instance of the "upper mine". 120 tons of rock dumped out of the shaft and then moved up a very steep hill and back down a steep slope to the bottom of the shaft again. Do it alone with canvas buckets.

One winter generously considered as 4 months, 120 days. One ton a day for 120 days would be a chore for one man but it just might be possible if one were well supplied, committed, healthy and took no time off.

So let's fantasize that's what happened and magically the laws of physics were suspended and all that rock fit right back into the mine shaft. What about the other mine? A different winter? More magic suspension of the laws of physics?
_________

To anyone who knows mining the hidden mine theory is obvious BS made up by someone with no knowledge of mining or even what happens when you dig a hole in your own back yard. Every time I see a story about a "hidden" mine I have to chuckle. You might hide a mine entrance with brush or rock but you can't hide the waste rock that was already mined.

Clay, I don’t know how much of the lore you have read, pondered, tried to work out….. but years are usually involved.
Yes you bring up thing that are big hurdles.
You and I were not there.

I like you clay, but a little tunnel vision may be going on ….. and fantasy has nothing to do with it.
the lower mine never existed until Waltz and Weiser started it, checking to see where best to apply efforts.
Then after making up their mind, they went up and cleaned up the upper site.
(The one your trying to figure where all the dump went)
The Mexicans ran a clandestine operation for decades perhaps, prior to Waltz and Weiser arrival.

The story says they made 2 caches from what was dug out by the Mexicans that trip, and cleaned up the area, lastly dumping the Mexicans bodies down the shaft.
The mine is within a very very short distance from the top of the ridge, and can be accessed when up top.
There was a 360 degree access for material to go.
I don’t know what they did, and don’t care. They must have figured something

Now the big pile of rock…. They only worked the lower mine a short while when the supply trip and subsequent events happened. That big pile of is way way more than could have come out of the lower mine. I don’t know, I only have speculations, but it certainly seems that there could be a dump from an upper mine under part of that big pile …. I don’t know …. Hence a trip to see more.

However, if I retrieve ore samples, then smart folk like you can figure out all the logistics that must have went down.

I’m at a place because it is where the clues fit. It is not some preselected spot, with reverse engineering….. other than when I first read the directional clues from the Holmes manuscript. The rest of the manuscript, did not keep my interest, to ever finish it.

That’s when I found the viewpoint for 4 peaks looking like one peak.
EXACTLY as the manuscript directions says.
Next was the hidden camp in the canyon below.
That one took a long long time. I am not a force fit guy.
It’s either going to fit or it’s not.

No point in my continuing, when a guy like you could get what I got, probably much faster than it took me.

But first I followed the monumented trail directions that Waltz had Julia memorize in the months prior to his death.
Decades went by until I cam across more information …. The Holmes manuscript.

You don’t have to believe, just don’t expect me to explain how the Mexicans dispersed all the mine dump from the upper mine.

I planned to go over the top to look around, quartz is not that hard to see.
Also lots of little crooks and crannies accessible to debris dumping from up above.

Matthew Roberts even saw Harnish’s men collecting or searching in places that very well may have contained mine dump debris.
I wasn’t there, I don’t know.

I don’t know if that helps or makes it worse.
Sincerely Idahodutch

 

[Idahodutch]

……….There is a 360 degree access for material to go. I don’t know what they did, and don’t care. They must have figured ………

Clay, the truth is that I do care….. and there are lots of possibilities of what could have went down. 🤔

To prove how things went down, may never happen ….
Sorry for the attitude earlier. 😇

To reach the very top, where the miniature valley is found, is a very tough hike. 🥵
Sincerely,
Idahodutch