pottery plummet..may hint at use.

[GatorBoy]

I have heard of a couple of these... only a couple. I was lucky enough to find 1 of them. With all the debate and questions about the use of plummets I thought this was worth sharing. since most are made of stone or shell they are limited in the types of use that would be visible on their surface. I believe this rare artifact may be showing some information very rarely seen. I inhanced one of the photos to bring out small wear patterns that do not appear to be intentional. they look to me like cloth or cord impressions. Have a look..

 

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[unclemac]

So you belive the beautifuly polished decrative hardstone pieces were slung into the water to fish with...huh... that isn't logical. What about my pottery one? What about these..? Who would go through all that work to make something to sling into the water when all that was needed was pebble.

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I will say this about your "sinking" (har har, I made a joke) point of view.... It occures to me that I use a screwdriver for a lot of purposes other than driving screws. In fact a lot of my tools are used for things other than what they were designed for. So why couldn't native peoples have done the same thing? There is no reason these plummets couldn't have been used as fishing line weights, loom weights, adornment, put in medicine bundles, fastened to nets to toss at birds etc. I think sometimes we get put off by the fact that some artifacts were VERY well made and show an inordinate ammount of time and effort to make but were used for mundane purposes. Well let me say, I love to paint and to make ceramics and to build furniture etc...I am not all that good at it but I love to do it. I would suspect that your average natives had a variety of skill levels too. Some were master craftsmen and others were just adequate. ... and factor in time too... I have read that have average hunter/gatherer had a LOT more free time in his life than we do in the modern era. Good lord, look at the Northwest Coast Indians, they lived in such a FAT land that they could build PERMANENT villiages. Now just think about that for a minute.....world wide that is very very rare. And look at their artifacts too, incredible works of funtional art. They didn't carve, build, make these beautiful things because they had to, they did it because they had the time and they WANTED to.



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[GatorBoy]

Very well put. That still leaves in question the original purpose the artifact was intended for in question. I open a lot of paint cans with a screwdriver.. but if someone asked me what screw drivers were I would not call then paint can openers.

 

[GatorBoy]

These belong to Larson1951 what would you call them? They are from a "Fat" tribe as you put it. They are fishing sinkers made for the job...they would work.

 

[unclemac]

i would call them net sinkers

 

[GatorBoy]

That's not what they call them..and they find alot of the bone hooks to go with them. See how the groove goes length ways so the line could securely hold the weight of the object with the hooks suspended above.. I take it you haven't done much fishing.. we call them chicken rigs. we use that setup all the time down here deep sea fishing to bring up multiple fish at a time. the weight rests on the bottom with multiple hooks suspended above.

 

[GatorBoy]

I would like to close... by saying this,
What seems more likely to evolve into something people wanted to make beautiful?... fishing sinkers... or the village loom?

 

[larson1951]

i would call them net sinkers

these were used to keep a baited bone hook laying on the bottom where all of the missouri river fish are
mostly catfish, walleye, sauger, drum, etc

thank you gator for posting that image for me

 

[GatorBoy]

Thank you for your responce.

 

[NC field hunter]

Thank you for your responce.

Gator, if these are weights, and I'm not saying that they aren't , I don't know. Would it be likely that all of the ones made of pottery would weigh really close to each other?( size according of course) and like wise with the polished stone ones? Have you weighed any of them?? Or would it matter. One more thing, you don't think they could have been used as a plumb bob is used today? Seems logical because Egyptians used them to make sure their structures were erected the way that they needed them. I don't know of any post and lunar structures built by the natives in out area, but, I would think that they did have some that we don't know of. The Chockia mound is just as large as the largest pyramid and built of soils from hundreds of miles away. Just as mysterious as the pyramids. It is in the article I sent you a few weeks back. The literature said nothing of it being post and lunar but I would say that it is (my guess) In order to do this it would have to be perfectly vertical in order to line up with the stars as it should . Hope that made sense. In a but if a hurry, but wanted to ask if you had thought of that aspect of it. One more thing, the effigy pieces Tom posted, are we sure that they are even plummets? Not disagreeing with you, but attempting to help you! I know your passion for the unanswered. I have the passion as well, but not to your extent any longer. Quantum physics almost drove me crazy. I promised myself to never get into the depths of mysterious stuff as I did there!!! It can consume your life, if your hunger is strong enough for that knowledge.

 

[GatorBoy]

All Of the points you bring up Are valid ones. My archaeological Experience is avocational...meaning.. I do it on the side. Unfortunately I have to pay the bills and spend a large percentage of my time constructing homes. The name plummet.. came from there resemblance to plumb bobs.. but beyond that there has been no evidence of the use of tools to create perpendicular and square lines of construction by the Natives here. I can get pretty in depth With my research On certain subjects.. Then Feel the need to put a certain subject down for a while to pick it up fresh after I've not only cleared my mind but also given my subconscious some time to sift through the information.. oftentimes after doing that answers will show themselves to me as if I had been searching the entire time. the mind is an amazing machine! Anyway that's where I'm at with this at the moment. I like threads like this one..a good argument works like a think tank as long as everyone keeps their cool and adds constructive material. To me it sure beats opening another thread only to say... " just a rock".. ha ha.. stay cool Rusty. Talk at ya later.

 

[NC field hunter]

All Of the points you bring up Are valid ones. My archaeological Experience is avocational...meaning.. I do it on the side. Unfortunately I have to pay the bills and spend a large percentage of my time constructing homes. The name plummet.. came from there resemblance to plumb bobs.. but beyond that there has been no evidence of the use of tools to create perpendicular and square lines of construction by the Natives here. I can get pretty in depth With my research On certain subjects.. Then Feel the need to put a certain subject down for a while to pick it up fresh after I've not only cleared my mind but also given my subconscious some time to sift through the information.. oftentimes after doing that answers will show themselves to me as if I had been searching the entire time. the mind is an amazing machine! Anyway that's where I'm at with this at the moment. I like threads like this one..a good argument works like a think tank as long as everyone keeps their cool and adds constructive material. To me it sure beats opening another thread only to say... " just a rock".. ha ha.. stay cool Rusty. Talk at ya later.

I hope you know that I'm trying to help you. I have to make a living as well, so this is on the back burner. At times it will sneak to the front burner and I have to rewind my self. I can tell, you have the hunger as well. Honestly, I want to know more than you and every one else. This has been stuck to my brain like a bad song. All of the reading takes you in circles. You finally have to think about what makes sense to you. I figured I would bring a couple things to light, if they had not been already. Take a break from it. Do us all some good!!! Thanks for the interesting stuff you bring up!!

 

[Martingeetars]

Here is one of my personal plummet, sinker, net wieght, necklace, adornment, add on whatcha ma call it piece that has a fish head carved in it and it was found in water I might add, no fish hook was found with,could be anything. All I know is I would'nt fish with it!
You can clearly see the eye and lip on the first side and on the damaged side remnents of the eye.

 

[larson1951]

Here is one of my personal plummet, sinker, net wieght, necklace, adornment, add on whatcha ma call it piece that has a fish head carved in it and it was found in water I might add, no fish hook was found with,could be anything. All I know is I would'nt fish with it!
You can clearly see the eye and lip on the first side and on the damaged side remnents of the eye.

spooky
gives me the heebie jeebies

 

[tomclark]

That's incredible! Looks like a fat shad!

I don't know what this was supposed to look like, but it's got a pecked design of something and the groove is VERY shallow. Many "plummets" have very shallow grooves that I do not think would hold thread well and some plummets have no groove. Some ungrooved are unfinished but I think some are... Many are flat on one side and some are very small....

My personal opinion: Some ornamental/pendant, some fishing weights or other fishing purpose, some possibly loom related, some "charm"

 

[Martingeetars]

Tom your last picture could have anwserd one possible use could be, a hard gage for beads, you know the beads hole is large enough when it fits over the end of the collumnella(sp)which is the plummet!The one in your hand has two bead sizes!...: )

 

[Martingeetars]

Tom is your first one shown coral? Very fine assortment you got going.

 

[yakker]

Can't resist adding to the frey... I see another post concerning a carved bone 'thread spinner', and I'm finding myself thinking there are a lot of similarities between known 'drop spindles' and...wait for it... fishing bobbers. I know, I know. But look here-- Grizzly Mountain Arts: New Pear Takli Whorl Support or Drop Spindles I know they're modern, but don't you think they look like those wood or cork 'stick' bobbers? Pretty dern close. And then I thought of the 'loom weight' pictured way back in this post- and how it looked a heck of a lot like a roller pestle. Things can bare a striking similarily to other objects. The tear-drop shape of 'plummets' would seem to lend itself to several purposes, I think.

That said, there are a lot of rational reasons for an item to be extremely well made. Something perhaps considered a 'durable good'. Something which would be passed on through generations- as previously stated by someone here on this post. Consider the humble thimble. Such a seemingly simple item- something to protect the finger from the needle. Could have been a little leather 'cap'. Could have been a cored out bone. Something simple and easy to produce. The mear practicality of an item does not necessarily mean it will be made in simple form. Just consider the seemingly ridiculous array of various types and styles of thimbles. I don't sew. I can't ellaborate much, but I do know they were and are still passed down, gaining value as they age (with provenance and quality, design and material). Would not, could not these really cool and beautifully created 'plummets' be multi-purpose- as in "the weather used to be so cold, so much of the time, we did a lot of weaving, and really needed these to aid in our endevour. Generations later, the weather's better, we're fishing more, have moved location, and now have these great little tools- not longer as necessary for weaving, but just as useful for fishing. I cannot fathom any civilization flatly rejecting passed-down goods- especially if they're truly well-made and beautiful/appealing to the eye-- a status symbol as much as any heirloom passed down through generations. A sign of wealth, skill, creativity, imagination- and history of a family line/tribal line. I'm thinking of items I've inherited which I have put to a different use than originaly intended...
So, just a thought. Since we're trying to settle on the original, 'true' use for these objects, perhaps we should looks at history, climate, social movement/displacement to find an answer. Just a thought...

 

[GatorBoy]

I picked up this little dude last week. no groove is visible but the patina is very thick. Hmmmmm... It came from the right context. I don't think I will start cracking of patina.

 

[tomclark]

The first one I pictured is made of sandstone or limerock.

 

[tomclark]

I finally found a pic of the pottery plummet that I found in this old case pic! It was in Miscellaneous, hahahaha! Bottom left is pottery and thin like it was made out of a thick sherd of broken pottery. Only one I ever found kinda looks like your plummet's bro.