RangerTell Vekta

[woof!]

Inasmuch as I now believe that Sub-Surface was not intentionally misleading anyone, and was instead the victim of a fraud, I have emailed them a link to this thread recommending that they begin reading with post #21.

--Dave Johnson

 

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[aarthrj3811]

Inasmuch as I now believe that Sub-Surface was not intentionally misleading anyone, and was instead the victim of a fraud, I have emailed them a link to this thread recommending that they begin reading with post #21.

How was he defrauded?...He seems to happy with his device…Is not all metal detectors for sub-surface use/

 

[gollum]

Hey Woof!

The really funny thing is that NOWHERE on either website do they even mention ionic detection. Look at their gallery page. Every picture is about GPR, EMI, or using a magnetometer with a trace wire in the pipe. Not one picture of a find with an Ionic Detector.

I am a man of my word though. If the thing really works, then I am big enough to admit I am wrong. It just seems hokey when I get a bunch of titles with no names thrown at me, with no way to verify them, their finds, or their methods of use other than from the LRL Circus Barkers.

Mike

 

[Carl-NC]

Woof, it's possible that Earth is a principal of the company and is completely self-deluded. Maybe he really believes the Vekta ain't a dowsing rod, and is willing to put the company on the line to prove it ain't a dowsing rod.

 

[woof!]

The reference to "ionic detection" is from their advertisement in a trade magazine, linked in my post above. I didn't check out their website, but if my theory as to how this strange event came about is correct, then I wouldn't expect to find any mention of it on their website. Most companies are slow to update their websites, but quick to haul something down if it was a serious mistake. A full page ad written for an independent publication is however a different matter. You submit your ad copy and if they accept, it's hard to stop it from being published.

Meanwhile, Art seems very confused. There is zero evidence that Sub-Surface has anything to do with Vekta, in fact the evidence points elsewhere.

Meanwhile there's this Earth guy trying to appropriate their advertisement, pass it off as editorial content, and use it to pitch the Vekta.

This thread began as a discussion over whether or not the Vekta itself is a fraud. Post #21 changed what the thread was about. It's now about how an evidently respectable contract locator wound up publicizing "ionic detection" as one of their capabilities, and why this newbie Earth-2014 is claiming it has something to do with the Vekta despite all evidence to the contrary. And even contrary to the manufacturer's own description of the product!

Whether the Vekta itself is a fraud is no longer the issue. The question is whether Earth-2014 is a fraud. The evidence that he is, is evidence that he himself has produced, I didn't twist his harm and tell him to post what he did. Rather than dealing with the evidence he so generously put on the table and bothering to explain it, so far he seems to be running as fast as he can: Arthur already said as much using different words.

I love his leading post:

It might be of interest that I have been using the Rangertell Vekta to find underground piping & conduit lines with great success this year. I work for a very large geosurvey company, making thousands of dollars a week just using the Vekta for a couple of hours each day. The accuracy achieved is virtually 100% & it cuts the costs for this company remarkably. I will never forget the great instrument this is as I prove it daily.

Is it possible that anyone who knows what contract locating is, would believe one word of that statement? Nope. It's aimed at clueless gullibillies. I left something out of the quote that tips the guy's hand yet again who he am & ain't. Anyone care to go back to Post #21 and take a look?

 

[woof!]

Woof, it's possible that Earth is a principal of the company and is completely self-deluded. Maybe he really believes the Vekta ain't a dowsing rod, and is willing to put the company on the line to prove it ain't a dowsing rod.

Ranger-Tells have never to my knowledge been passed off as "ionic detection" -- that's Mineoro's schtick. On the other hand, there have been hints in his posts that he is indeed a principal in Ranger-Tell, and failed to consider how much interest "of the wrong kind" would be created by trying to pass it off as "ionic detection" in an attempt to piggyback on Sub-Surface's publicity mistake.

 

[Earth_2014]

If you want to visit and see some demos along with radar and MRI to verify it then that can be arranged. We do that as part of our daily work anyway. I can do some long distance demonstration.

If this is fraud then how come the list of LRL manufacturers is getting longer each year? Everyone offering to demonstrate them. I personally am not into divining or dowsing. Being a man of science I am totally 100% sure of the ionic detection. My previous job was testing Ionic discharge in generators, hydrodams and power stations. Its called PD for partial discharge. The mild form of PD is from the magnetostriction of metals. (Some call it magneticstriction but I have edited it to the more accepted magnetostriction after posting).

The Vekta can pick up an already discovered submarine and many other shipwrecks around the world.

Would you change your minds if someone found large deposits of valuable metals?

 

[woof!]

demo..... what? a Vectra or an "ion detector" (Mineoro?)? Do you ever get your story straight? Besides which, what would be new in that? People have been "demoing" LRL's for quite a few years now, and the pattern is very consistent. The demo only works if they control the conditions. In the case of the swivelly thingies, it doesn't matter what the swivelly thingie is, the sales demo methods are the same. What's actually being demo'd is not the swivelly thingy, it's the demo skills of the salesman. In the case of the non-swivelly Mineoro, the demo skills are a bit different and for a convincing demo they rely on concealed transmitters which of course the mark is never told about.

Meanwhile, the thought did indeed plicken....... [drum roll, trumpet fanfare]: A person whom I believe to be a representative of Sub-Surface responded to my email and says that the ad was not a mistake, they are using "something" newfangled, but aren't going to disclose what it is nor do they really care whether it's called "ionic detection" or something else.

So-- my best guess regarding the apparatus in question is this:
1. "an apparatus" does exist at Sub-Surface.
2. the apparatus in question is a swivelly thingy.
3. the ad copy used the pseudoscientific (in this context) phrase "ionic detection" to throw people off the scent.
4. inasmuch as Earth popped up here touting the Vekta in connection with contract locating, the apparat in question is probably the Vekta. If not, it'll suffice.
5. inasmuch as the company rep is claiming newfangled capability but doesn't want anyone to know what it actually is, there is nothing under the shell in this information shell game. There is no newfangled capability-- what there is, is a swivelly thingy. The use of swivelly thingies by locating crews has a long history and is commonplace (though less so nowadays than it used to be). However it's almost always plain vanilla dowsing rods.

The supposed electronic enhancements on LRL swivelly thingies have nothing to do with physical operating principle (ordinary Newtonian physics), that silliness is all about the psychology of people who will spend a lot of money to deny that they're dowsing. If calling it molecular resonance doesn't dial a particular customer's number, try ionic discrimination. If that doesn't work, the LRL industry has lots of other pseudoscience buzzwords.


Then there's the question of this peculiar thing going on at Sub-Surface. What's that all about?

As best I can decipher the story I received via email, a particular tech used the gizmo under field conditions and achieved a fairly good locate. Field reports often get garbled on the way back to headquarters, so maybe what the company rep thinks happened is not what really happened. But suppose the story of the successful locate being told is pretty much what happened. It's indistinguishable from an ordinary dowsing story.

So for the price of a Vekta, you too can get the same kind of results as dowsers get, and you can pretend you're not dowsing! And if that's not expensive enough, there's always the much more professional looking Thomas Gravitator. Between the two however, judging from the looks of the things, the Vekta has better ergonomics. Last time I checked the Blue Book, they had what appeared to be a fairly good quality foldup (can go in your pocket) dowsing rod for about US$40. If you prefer 2-rod dowsing, that's still under a hundred bucks.

 

[woof!]

If you want to visit and see some demos along with radar and MRI to verify it then that can be arranged. We do that as part of our daily work anyway. I can do some long distance demonstration.

If this is fraud then how come the list of LRL manufacturers is getting longer each year? Everyone offering to demonstrate them. I personally am not into divining or dowsing. Being a man of science I am totally 100% sure of the ionic detection. My previous job was testing Ionic discharge in generators, hydrodams and power stations. Its called PD for partial discharge. The mild form of PD is from the magneticstriction of metals.

The Vekta can pick up an already discovered submarine and many other shipwrecks around the world.

Would you change your minds if someone found large deposits of valuable metals?

Earth, I'm here in El Paso, and can point to the Carlin Trend with my unaided finger, don't even need a dowsing rod much less a Vekta! I hope you're duly impressed! (If you don't know what the Carlin Trend is, Art can explain it to you.)

Standing here in my apartment, I just did a 360 and pointed to every shipwreck on the planet, discovered and undiscovered. Coulda done it with a Vekta, but managed without.

And being a Man of Science myself (excuse me while I change into a white lab coat and hang a PhD on the wall), I too am 100% sure that litmus paper works-- in fact you don't even need litmus paper, purple cabbage works the same way.

But that business about magneticstriction .......thank goodness you're not working with electric power infrastructure any more!

 

[gollum]

If you want to visit and see some demos along with radar and MRI to verify it then that can be arranged. We do that as part of our daily work anyway. I can do some long distance demonstration.

If this is fraud then how come the list of LRL manufacturers is getting longer each year? Everyone offering to demonstrate them. I personally am not into divining or dowsing. Being a man of science I am totally 100% sure of the ionic detection. My previous job was testing Ionic discharge in generators, hydrodams and power stations. Its called PD for partial discharge. The mild form of PD is from the magneticstriction of metals.

The Vekta can pick up an already discovered submarine and many other shipwrecks around the world.

Would you change your minds if someone found large deposits of valuable metals?

Earth (Justin?),

In my emails with subsurfacedetection, the Managing Director seems happy with whatever device he is using. Even though I asked which device he used, he did not tell me in two emails, so I didn't push it. Maybe Vekta, maybe not. He also said he did not desire to get into this debate, so I will not post our emails other than to say that he does not feel he has been defrauded.

See, I am easy. If the science of a device can be tested and reproduced in a laboratory/workshop, then I know the abilities and limitations. I can then make an informed decision as to whether it has the potential to work for my needs. The science of metal detectors, EMI, and gpr has been tested time and again in laboratories around the world. Every lab comes to the exact same conclusions. The same cannot be said for LRLs, MFDs, and the like. See, a Function Generator CAN NOT be an Ion Detector. Two completely different devices.

To answer your question about the list of LRL Manufacturers; if I saw people sticking an antenna and a handle on a $50 Chinese Function Generator and reselling it for $1300, I might be inclined to do the same thing. If I didn't have any morals.

Mike

 

[aarthrj3811]

Earth, I'm here in El Paso, and can point to the Carlin Trend with my unaided finger, don't even need a dowsing rod much less a Vekta! I hope you're duly impressed! (If you don't know what the Carlin Trend is, Art can explain it to you.)

Standing here in my apartment, I just did a 360 and pointed to every shipwreck on the planet, discovered and undiscovered. Coulda done it with a Vekta, but managed without.
But that business about magneticstriction .......thank goodness you're not working with electric power infrastructure any more!

Gee..It seems we know more about treasure hunting than you...Wow.....you guys are really intelligent....

 

[aarthrj3811]

A contract locating company in NZ claims they have a new "ion detection" thing that they use to do locates that are difficult or impossible to achieve with more conventional equipment, the latter of which they describe. Since they seemingly don't want anyone to know what their "ion detection" thing is but are making fairy tale like claims for what it can do, all we have to go on is the possibility that they are reinventing the Mineoro fairy tale. There is zero evidence to support their claim, and furthermore since they haven't said what their "ion detection" actually is, they've made it impossible to say specifically what they're claiming. It's a fairy tale. And, in the contract locating business, I predict it won't last long!
Then there's this whole other thing of a guy posting here (or at least implying? I haven't gone back to read the find details) that the company uses a Vektra. So far no evidence that this is the case: on the contrary, the fact that the company refers to "ion detection" (something not associated with RangerTell) strongly suggests that the company does NOT use a Vektra.
How odd that Art is now jumping on the "ion detection" bandwagon!

What bandwagon?...All I see is a guy telling us how he uses his equipment

Someone in the company hears about LRL's, possibly from a purveyor of such. The purveyor quickly figures out that the company guy is clueless about this stuff, so the purveyor makes a bunch of claims regarding what some LRL gizmo can achieve in underground infrastructure locating. (We're obviously talking a really expensive gizmo here, thousands of dollars, not a priced-for-the-public Ranger-Tell.) The company guy is all excited, and places an order for one.
The story gets to marketing dept., who are similarly excited and want to advertise the new capability they're about to get. As though they already had it. After all, by the time the ad actually goes into print, they'll have the new gadget, right? No harm, no foul. Marketing dept. can't really describe what "ion detection" means in this context (obviously not referring to litmus paper) because they don't know, nobody's told them.
That's my theory of how this strange episode began. Company never intended to defraud anyone, they themselves got took and the timing was bad.

The question is still...How was Earth defrauded?

If anyone wants the Yocum Frequencies I have them

 

[aarthrj3811]

(If you don't know what the Carlin Trend is, Art can explain it to you.)

The event that has the most interest to me is the Sierra fault block...this event has spread the gold all over the Sierra Nevada mountains by cutting and moving the rivers and streams.. I can clearly see the results of the uplift from my front yard..the Carlin event was just a minor event..Art

 

[Carl-NC]

The mild form of PD is from the magneticstriction of metals.

"Magneticstriction"... that's as funny as Dell's "electromagnetical" whatever. Yep, good thing you're not doing that any more.

 

[aarthrj3811]

What you going to do Carl..the only thing I can see is for you is to ban him for live from your Skeptics club

 

[azdave35]

can anyone tell me where rangertell gets the enclosure box to make his gadget?...i've never seen one like it

 

[signal_line]

That is a frequency generator you can buy for $50 on ebay. Add antenna and handle.

 

[azdave35]

thanks....i know whats in it...i was just curious about the enclosure box its in....ive never seen one like it..lol

 

[aarthrj3811]

I would think that they have had someone make them. A mold for something like would cost a pile of money....Art

 

[gollum]

thanks....i know whats in it...i was just curious about the enclosure box its in....ive never seen one like it..lol

Here you go:

Chinese Frequency Generator

Mike