Rejection Stories Wanted Please

[TheRandyMan]

I was recently discussing with my wife (a non treasure hunter) the ethics of treasure hunting. She believes that a policy of "Full Disclosure" should be followed for any type of hunting on private property. I told her that I had often read about detectorists being kicked off properties that they initially had received permission to hunt once the owner perceived some real or imagined treasure was there. An example would be if you had done some research on a cache at an old home site and found the owner and requested permission to hunt the property. Verbal permission is given so you began hunting with the owner watching. Maybe you find a nice silver coin and suddenly the owner asks you to give them the coin and immediately leave their property. The "ethical dilemma" is...should you reveal to the owner that you have determined that there may be a valuable item(s) on the property prior to hunting it or simply ask for permission to hunt? Obviously, there are many variables involved...value of the treasure, % possibility of it actually being there, how much work/money will be expended to locate and recover the treasure, etc., etc..

My personal problem with her policy is that anytime I research a treasure and then go on site to locate a treasure. I have spent considerable time and money just to get to that point. If I then contact the owner and fully disclose the details of all of my hard work it provides them with much of what they need to possibly recover the treasure. What is to prevent them from simply saying no? Their natural sense of fair play and instinctive generosity? Even if I go to them and present them with a contract agreement that offers a 50/50 split after expenses and only refers to the treasure as "The Item(s)", they have at that moment acquired knowledge that there could be something of value on their property and just that knowledge alone might be enough for them to say no.

My previous experiences have taught me that there is a large part of the genetic pool that believes they can live off the hard work and efforts of others and there is no need for them to personally invest time, money, sweat and even blood when they can just take it from others much easier. I would ask that anyone who has had rejection experiences please post them here in this thread...not only for my wife to see and consider but to also benefit any other treasure hunter who is learning how to acquire the many skills necessary to be successful in this unique profession. I do understand that this exercise in recalling and writing down these experiences may be painful and I wish to offer my great appreciation to you, in advance, for the effort that you will be making by revealing these experiences to the Treasure Net community. Please be assured that the value of your experience will greatly help others in ways you may never fully comprehend.

I will remain forever in your debt. [size=12pt] Randy[/size]

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Well, I have to respectfully disagree with your wife. The type person she fears "lurks everywhere", just isn't the case. If someone gives you a "help yourself" answer, and lets you wander around, while they could care less, why isn't that good enough? Why would you want to hand them contracts to sign? A "go ahead" is sufficient.

A contract actually, is the fastest way to get a "no" I mean, think of it: what would YOU do if a total stranger shows up at your door handing you a contract to sign? And it simply raises red flags that "oh my gosh, I must have the next Mel Fisher treasure buried here".

And let's face it: a LOT of these stories turn out to be wild goose chases anyhow. So what will happen, is you go through a lot of psychological loops and pitches to convince them that "there might be a treasure buried on your land, so let's sign contracts". Guess how stupid you are going to feel, when you come back in after hours and hours, and say "ah never mind, nothing's there"?

Most farmers and home-owners who's property I hunt, are fine with a handshake. I'll sometimes Joke: If I find a jar of gold coins, we split it. So I figure, if I really did find a jar of gold coins, that would be sufficient.

 

[Dano Sverige]

A handshake is fine...until the owner isn't happy with half a jar of gold coins and wants them all! He pulls a gun on you and tells you to leave the coins and maybe your detector and get the hell off his land! You don't have a leg to stand on! I've read posts on here where that's happened..so it's not all that extreme an example!
In the UK it's standard..and seriously advised practice to have a written "50/50" contract. It causes no harm,and is useful later if anything of serious value does turn up.
There's NO reason to tell an owner "there may be treasure on your land", because even if there is..you may not find it!
Most landowners have neither the time nor inclination to go digging for treasure,and are more than happy to do bugger all and then get 50% for doing it!
Of course..in the UK we concentrate on farm fields where this is a viable prospect.We rarely go around peoples gardens (yards).
It works well for us.

 

[Monty]

Unfortunately there aren't that many open fields or farms that have historical significance here in the USA except a few that might contain some Native American artifacts. The ancient history of our country doesn't include many Roman metropolises or such as our history is rather modern compared to Europe. Many of us are surrounded by modern cities where yards, parks or vacant lots are the only avenue to hunt. You approach an individual owner with a contract here, you can bet you just lowered your chances of getting a yes. They would be more likely to want a hold harmless agreement just in case you stubbed your toe and tried to sue them! Monty

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Dano, this sort of reminds me of conversations I have with my wife (who is an overly cautious person in risk-assessment). We live in a town that has a "badside" part of town. The "other side of the tracks", so to speak. She reads of some stabbing or driveby shooting, and thinks our city has a stigma of such violence. In an attempt to show her we are safe living here, I point out 1) that's on the other side of town, across the tracks, not in our uppidy up neighborhood/side of town. 2) if you read those news clips carefully, you'll see they're generally gang member wanna be ethnic kids, between the ages of 16 to 22, wearing "colors", etc.... 3) we can't afford to move to a private enclave somewhere else.

But to no avail. The thing she keeps coming back with is fears based on the age-old: "but what if something happens?" or "how do you know for sure" mantras.

C'mon, I mean, sheesk, yeah, let's all go buy airliner-wreck-insurance for "just in case" a 747 crashes on our house. Know what I mean? Sure, there are mean people who *might* pull a gun if you find a barber dime on their land. So we might as well all go hide in a bomb shelter somewhere? I think this is a caution-factor worry-factor issue, that ............ just like in Randy-man's initial question, is built on the age-old "insure yourself to the hilt" mentality, and then ...... presto, you end up "looking for assassins under rocks" (afterall, you can't be too careful, right?)

 

[bigscoop]

I think you first have to essess the possible value of the treasure being sought, let's face it, most finds are not that earth shattering to require more then simple permission, and as Tom already said, a simple handshake and a light-hearted 50/50. However, in the "very rare" case of a possible substantial discovery, I think both the land owner and the treasure hunter would want, and require, a bit more then that. I know I would.

 

[JackInFlorida]

I was researching a possible location for an old Indian Village. After researching what area was on public land and what was on private I went out to check the site. This is about 2 hours from my home. I scoped out the location and realized it was not in a location that could be easily accessed.

Few weekends later, I drove by and stopped at some house until I could talk to someone, they said the land was leased by a cattle farmer and she gave me his number. I couldn't reach him, so I left a message.

Next weekend I called him, he said he was on the land right then, I asked if I could come over and look around for old relics and stuff. He said sure. I drove out there and he wasn't there. I called and he said he had left for lunch. He asked why I wanted to look for stuff there. I told him there was lots of activity in the area in the old days and I was just curious if there had been any campsites etc. on the land. He then told me that I had better get permission from the owner before coming on the land.

As soon as he believed there might be something other than cow crap on the land, he backed out. All the research for nothing, second whole day shot driving around for nothing.

Jack

 

[TheRandyMan]

Jack, This is the type of experience that I have heard of often. The "dismissal" with gun is not out of the range of responses as well, thanks Dino. Its pretty clear that as the perceived value of the "treasure" rises in the mind of a person the chance of rejection/denial goes up exponentially. My most recent treasure hunting experience is relevant to this topic as the treasure item(s) involved could be quite valuable. A consultation with an attorney, under attorney/client privilege, was conducted and after the attorney heard all the facts around the treasure item(s) he agreed with a proposed plan for acquiring the treasure item(s) from the private property owner. This treasure item(s) could accurately be described in multiple creative ways. One way would impart the perception that the object(s) only had value when an individual wanting it could be described as a "crazy collector" and otherwise the item(s) could be considered basically worthless. After that perception was created in the private landowner's mind, he basically insisted on giving the item away for free as he had no idea of the possible true value of the item. The attorney informed that as long as there was a simple Bill of Sale connected with the transfer of the item(s) then the owner would have very little chance to win any legal action should he find out in the future about the actual value of the item(s). It actually has proven more difficult to get the owner to sign a Bill of Sale than the few minutes it took to get permission to access the property and remove the item(s)... as he has resisted taking a token payment ($100) for the object(s).

The multiple skill sets that must be developed to be successful are diverse. It begins to take on the strange aspects of a "treasure hunting reality show" or "Survivor" might be a more accurate descriptor. Each decision, each action, each possible reaction must be carefully thought out. Similar to chess, you must anticipate your "opponents" next moves far in advance and know the answer to every question before they are asked. You must have the ability to adapt on the fly to new facts and new challenges and overcome objections. You must know when and how to sell yourself and when and how to play a part convincingly. You must learn what motivates and what button to push at the right time. Sometimes you must go back to the start and find out what single piece of information you may have missed or misinterpreted...similar to Mel Fisher's interpreter problem where a single mistake kept him hunting in the wrong location for years. The "game" aspect provides much of the satisfaction in being successful. It is summarized in the many times you hear people say "Its not what you find, its the hunt itself that provides the challenge and fun.". As any game player will tell you, the most difficult opponent to overcome is another intelligent person and similar to winning at a skill based game the feeling of achievement is very satisfying to ego and wallet, if the treasure is secured.

One other old adage has proven useful from time to time as well..."It is easier to get forgiveness, than permission."... Obviously this maxim must be applied with the appropriate discretion as should you seek to use it where it comes into conflict with another maxim... "Ignorance of the law is no excuse."... you may get a costly example in another game.

 

[Bev]

I really liked reading this thread. Very interesting. I have to agree with the "cow crap" comment. Some people probably have never even taking a walk on their land but as soon as you show interest, they imagine treasure troves.
As a Realtor, there are forms that people need to sign that are required by state law when someone shows interest in one of my properties. You can't believe the static I hear about signing that form. I can't imagine a contract presented in order to fool around on someone's land.
I have always been able to understand both sides of a debate and I can see the liability side, you're focused on something and you fall into a well, Lassie is in the house sleeping and doesnt go for help, etc. I get that. When I first moved into my house the neighbor's son was in from Texas and told me not to go in the woods nearby because he had set animal traps years ago and didnt remember where they were. (could be he just didnt want anyone back there) but that is a little nerve racking besides being silly in the head and reckless, etc. Wasnt even his land.
I have to say I see more trash and damage from mountain bike riders than anything I could do with a trowel. Riding through nature, one with the earth, chucking my protein bar wrapper and water bottle on the side of the path.
I have to say when I do ask, it's so far from whatever they are thinking I'm there for that they just say, uh yeah I guess so- and I beat feet so they can't think about it any harder!

 

[TerryC]

Yes. A very relative topic for all of us, yet never really thought out. I have a neighbor who has given me permission to check out the quartz veins (usual "take" is 10%) yet he won't let me get near a spot known to have been worked by "miners" till 1950's. Strange. You can have all you want..... unless you find something! TTC

 

[bigscoop]

RandyMan,
I just spoke to my lawyer today about the bill of sale notion, and he went on to tell me that it could still be contested and that you could, and probably would lose if it could be proven that you didn't provide accurate disclosure as to the real purpose of your wanting to hunt the land. In fact, he went on to say, if it could be proven that you knew what you were looking for and that you misrepresented your true intentions then you could even be charged with outright fraud, on top of losing everything you found. On the other hand, he went on to say that if you accurately disclosed your intentions and true purpose then a bill of sale would pretty much nail the case closed in your favor. So here we find that even lawyers don't agree on how these things might turn out.

 

[TheRandyMan]

Why does that not surprise me? Ask 5 lawyers the same question and you get 50 different answers..go figure...

 

[JackInFlorida]

Why does that not surprise me? Ask 5 lawyers the same question and you get 50 different answers..go figure...

Lawyers give opinions, not rulings.

 

[NH Bob]

I say be honest and presint yourself and reason for wanting to hunt there and take it from there. NOTHING beats the truth even if you're turned down.

 

[bigscoop]

I look at it this way.....metal detecting is a hobby, treasure hunting is a profession. The first is relatively inexspensive to pursue and it typically lacks all the added cost and complicated legal concerns, while the later is usually just the opposite. Sadly, there is seldom any middle ground.

 

[Bev]

Up here in R.I. I think when I get rejected to metal detect, Some picture me as a 5'2" tall gopher who is going to tear up the land one end to the other like a rototiller, leaving destruction in my wake. Rhode Island is the capital of stupid lawsuits, so others think I'm going to trip over a stick and suit them for a million dollars. Then there are the few who are afraid I'm going to find a treasure chest full of gold coins and they'll lose out even though they themselves would never bother to look.
It's also how you present, like real estate. If you're think you're not going to get the listing then you're probably not. If you are thinking that they won't let you, they probably wont because they'll sense your hesitation.

 

[NH Bob]

I agree that how you present yourself and the confidence you have when approaching a land owner is very impotent. I have a very good track record as far as getting permission I lay it to how well you can make someone feel comfortable with your presents.
I also have a card that I use every time I have a chance. I feel it makes a difference.
This is my old one, my new one has a link to my site on the bottom but is the same otherwise.

 

[Bev]

I LOVE IT!

That is so cool! WOW!

 

[TheRandyMan]

Bigscoop, That is an excellent and succinct description of the basic difference between treasure hunting and metal detecting. I probably will borrow that in the future and forget to give your your props so thanks for permission in advance . The fact that there is very little middle ground is also a salient observation.

The development of this thread has been interesting, however, I would like to refocus on getting specific rejection experiences. Focusing on the details of these experiences may help everyone develop strategies to prevent and overcome rejection. The card idea of Bob's is an excellent technique to lower initial resistance. I would be curious to find out how often it works for you, Bob, and whether you initially offer the owner a split of the finds or how you proceed should you get a rejection even after proceeding with the card. Maybe you can give us some specific experiences where your "Honesty is the best policy in all cases" philosophy did not result in getting permission but actually was disadvantageous and resulted in rejection. Maybe you never get rejected and you always get your treasure . That would not be as helpful for this thread but would surely help someone in some way.

For lack of a better phrase...Focus on the bad rejections and help others learn how to avoid being rejected. The treasure you save may be your own

 

[NH Bob]

With your own words, maybe I'm not a good example of getting rejected as I have a 99% success rate that can be attested to.
In brief let me take you on one of my approaches. I use yards as an example as Fields are a given. I pick a site that is right in all aspects, age of home, yard that looks like it has never been filled in and location. When I say location, why ask permission or even waste time if the area has been hit by others.
As you approach the door or person in the yard, look for something to start the conversation with. Nice garden, Love these old houses and this one has had my attention every time I drive by. Hi, My name is Bla Bla and I do detecting for a hobby. (all the time smiling and looking them in the eye) I look for artifact like old button and buckles. Every once in a while I find some old coins. This is what the look like. (I have a pocket full of crusty and some clean but pitted copper) I pull out a hand full and they are amazed at what the are. I tell them that once in a while I get one in nice condition. I've been itching to see what artifacts have been dropped over the years around your yard. They usually say go for it right then and there. If not I say you can see everything I find and if you want something just say so. 99% of the time they say no they don't want anything and tell me to go ahead.
It's basically as easy as that. So, like you said, I'm not a good one to tell rejection stories but think this is a positive note for those looking for a good way to approach this..