Second hunt after the freeze in Holland! --BIRD BONE UPDATE 2--

[woody50]

Well it rained from morning to night on the 22nd and the whole next day too. Was getting tired of
all the rain, and everything was just wet, wet and wet. Anyway on the 24th we had company, and
wanted to go to the "Museum of the 20th Century" here in Hoorn, where I had never been.

Anyway, because like most cities nowadays in Europe, we had to park quite a way from the center
of town, and walked there, but we had planned to walk around anyway. Along the way we walked
to the harbor along the large lake (Ijsselmeer) which is next to Hoorn. There was still ice on the lake
in several places, and a bit of ice that had been pushed by the wind upon the rocks.

Our family professor trying out the ice...

Then we got to the Museum.... It was pretty neat to see things that your grandmother and mother
used, how they lived, and what they had back then (not much, not even an ipod!). From old cereal
boxes to old gramophones players and such, just neat. Also old TVs playing Dallas and Thunderbirds!
And the clothes they wore back then. Just a lot of stuff.. My wife was also completely surprised
by the wedding dresses to see a wedding photo of her sister in her wedding dress hanging there!

http://www.museumhoorn.nl/createsite/page/createpage.asp?b_id=5548&pg=13

Then we walked further by the harbor back to the car (after a pint at the local bar) and I saw a good site
(we are ALWAYS looking for places, ain't we? AND with our eyes glued to the ground, not looking around
like the other people!) a place where the city had removed the old plants and bushes and were planting new
things. But it was a Saturday, they were not there, and because of the rain they could not finish the project.
So in the morning, pack up the detector and away I was.

Don't have any photo of the site though, didn't have my camera with me when I went back, but here is the
place, right in the old part of town; see the red arrow :

Well didn't really find anything exceptional but the weather was perfect, full sun and the only bothersome
thing was all the people strolling around, got many questions "What have you found?", and that sort of
thing, and kids following me, but all in all it was a nice couple of hours. Of course the small area has
been there for centuries and the most of the finds were recent, pull tabs, parts of shredded cola cans,
pieces of tinfoil, and all that junk. In between I found some stuff, but not really top finds, but it was
nice searching anyway.

1) a birds leg still inside the ring from 1945
2) a silver coin from West Friesland 1671
3) a good small jeton
4) silver button, but holed! darn it.
5) a small ring with stone, but from copper
6) a money clip, but without the cash! darn it again.

The neatest find from all of these is the birds ring with leg. I will report it to that club and
and see what they say.

Well anyway I was off the streets yesterday, really nothing for my display cases, but it was
nice to be outdoors again!

 

[Bavaria Mike]

Re: Second hunt after the freeze in Holland!

Some great finds Woody! Can you see the makers name on the Jetton or where it is from? That is tough detecting around so many people, I enjoy talking to the curious people but not every 5 minutes, LOL. HH, Mike

 

[CRUSADER]

Re: Second hunt after the freeze in Holland!

Lets hope it a famous WWII secret letter carrying pigeon.

 

[cuniagau]

Re: Second hunt after the freeze in Holland!

Woody,

Have your ever hunting in the Alkmaar or Bergen area? My son lives in Sint Pancras. My wife and I spent 23 days in The Netherlands last July. It is sure a wonderful place to visit. I hope to make it back over there the next July. My wife got to visit at Christmas time to see our new granddaughter. (now that's a treasure)

Cheers,
Cuniagau

 

[woody50]

Re: Second hunt after the freeze in Holland!

Some great finds Woody! Can you see the makers name on the Jetton or where it is from? That is tough detecting around so many people, I enjoy talking to the curious people but not every 5 minutes, LOL. HH, Mike

Thanks Mike. Yea people I don't really mind, but they always ask the same things!
I don't know where to look for a makers mark.
Its about 19/20mm and on the
obverse : A sun on the lower part, half moon on the top with stars (3 or more)
CONRADT.HOJERARHCHN.P.E*IOH.
Not sure about the J, could be a F
Also the H, after ERAR could be something like a omega
reverse : Looks like a ship

Can't really be sure until I get it cleaned up, its very hard to see exactly what most
of the letters are and the reverse, I sort of think a ship. Most of the Jetons I don't
determine, just dump them into my Jeton box.

 

[woody50]

Re: Second hunt after the freeze in Holland!

Woody,
Have your every hunting in the Alkmaar or Bergen area? My son live in Sint Pancras. My wife and I spent 23 days in The Netherlands last July. It is sure a wonderful place to visit. I hope to make it back over there the next July. My wife got to vist at Christmas time to see our new granddaughter. (now that's a treasure)
Cheers,
Cuniagau

Hi Cuniagau, well Alkmaar is actually off limits, detector's are not allowed there. But when I talk to people from there they say they do detect, but I have never done it. It's an old town for sure, and much is found there in digs. Bergen, have searched at the beach several times there, never in Bergen itself. Alkmaar is about a half hour away and Bergen somewhat further. We also have a niece living in Sint Pancras. Did search a bit by their house (very old, the area was 15e century or earlier) but didn't find anything interesting. We go there about once a year. If the weather was nicer here it would be great, but we get too many clouds and too much rain. Otherwise its a great place to live and bring up your children. What does your son do here?

 

[cuniagau]

Re: Second hunt after the freeze in Holland!

Woody,

He works for a tulip exporter. It is close to the potato chip factory. I hunted the beach at Bergen a couple of times last summer. It seemed like it rained almost every day that we were there and was always cold. I found a few Euros and some cheap earrings and a couple of .50 cal bullets from WWII. I also got to hunt some tulip fields that had been harvested. We found some coins from the 1500 and 1600's.
My daughter-in-law is Dutch and grew up in the area. My son moved there about 5 years ago because he had vistited the area on holiday and decided to move there. The rest as they say "is history". Now we have our first grand child and a wonderful place to go on vacation. The next time I go, I will take my Fisher CZ70 Pro with me and leave it with my son. That way I don't have to keep taking up space in my luggage that grandma could put more baby clothes. Ha ha

Cuniagau

 

[woody50]

Re: Second hunt after the freeze in Holland!

Woody,

He works for a tulip exporter. It is close to the potato chip factory. I hunted the beach at Bergen a couple of times last summer. It seemed like it rained almost every day that we were there and was always cold. I found a few Euros and some cheap earrings and a couple of .50 cal bullets from WWII. I also got to hunt some tulip fields that had been harvested. We found some coins from the 1500 and 1600's.
My daughter-in-law is Dutch and grew up in the area. My son moved there about 5 years ago because he had vistited the area on holiday and decided to move there. The rest as they say "is history". Now we have our first grand child and a wonderful place to go on vacation. The next time I go, I will take my Fisher CZ70 Pro with me and leave it with my son. That way I don't have to keep taking up space in my luggage that grandma could put more baby clothes. Ha ha

Cuniagau

Yea, that would be the idea, just leave the detector by your son. On your next trip you will find about 5 standing display cases in his house just full. And then when you go out detecting and search and search and find nothing you will know about your idea!! (just kidding of course). Nice to have someone in Europe that you can visit for sure! (And I know about the baby stuff too, remember that).

 

[kdismuke1]

Re: Second hunt after the freeze in Holland!

GREAT FINDS. CONGRATS.

 

[woody50]

Re: Second hunt after the freeze in Holland!

Lets hope it a famous WWII secret letter carrying pigeon.

Wrote to the NBVV here in Holland (Netherlands Union for Bird Enthusiasts), they reported that the text was not
what it was expected to be. So funny. I sent them these photos and will see what happens. I would think that
they would know, maybe its from outside Netherland, but then the Holland would not be on the ring I think.

 

[Harry_Morant]

Re: Second hunt after the freeze in Holland!______BIRD BONE UPDATE

If it was a British bird it may have had the word Holland on it so they could pass the message to the relevant section. Obviously a bird from the Netherlands would not have carried messages to Britain.

 

[woody50]

Re: Second hunt after the freeze in Holland!______BIRD BONE UPDATE

If it was a British bird it may have had the word Holland on it so they could pass the message to the relevant section. Obviously a bird from the Netherlands would not have carried messages to Britain.

That is an interesting idea, I will wait and see what the NBVV says, and then try England; who knows. Maybe by putting the word
-Hol-land on it would be a code so that people would know it was not faked. The war ended in 1945 also in Holland, so it could be true, something during the German occupation.

 

[kane23]

Re: Second hunt after the freeze in Holland!______BIRD BONE UPDATE

Woody,
Great finds,I would be in the clouds if I found that silver coin from the 1600's. What were the four coin like objects at the top of your picture? Wish I was detecting in Europe....Kane 23

 

[robfinds]

Re: Second hunt after the freeze in Holland!______BIRD BONE UPDATE

Hello Woody, I had both these rings yesterday, one of them is similar to yours although from the fifties. On the ring it says NU which I think stands for National Union (pigeon racing club of GB). I think yours could be a messinger pigeon ring rather than a racing pigeon ring. The modern plastic coated ring was found below a power pylon, pigeons frequently hit the power lines when flying in poor light.

HH Robert.

 

[Harry_Morant]

Re: Second hunt after the freeze in Holland!______BIRD BONE UPDATE

Eighty-two homing pigeons were dropped into Holland with the First Airborne Division Signals as part of Operation Market-Garden in World War II. The pigeons' loft was located in London which would have required them to fly 240 miles to deliver their messages.

In line with the previous comments about power lines they also suffered losses due to shell fragments and hawks although the majority of them did get through.

 

[woody50]

Re: Second hunt after the freeze in Holland!______BIRD BONE UPDATE

Hello Woody, I had both these rings yesterday, one of them is similar to yours although from the fifties. On the ring it says NU which I think stands for National Union (pigeon racing club of GB). I think yours could be a messinger pigeon ring rather than a racing pigeon ring. The modern plastic coated ring was found below a power pylon, pigeons frequently hit the power lines when flying in poor light.

HH Robert.

Thanks for this information Robert. There seems to be more letters/numbers on you NU ring, can you read it? If the number is a date on my ring (1945) it sure could be a message pigeon.

 

[woody50]

Re: Second hunt after the freeze in Holland!______BIRD BONE UPDATE

Eighty-two homing pigeons were dropped into Holland with the First Airborne Division Signals as part of Operation Market-Garden in World War II. The pigeons' loft was located in London which would have required them to fly 240 miles to deliver their messages.

In line with the previous comments about power lines they also suffered losses due to shell fragments and hawks although the majority of them did get through.

This is also a very interesting bit of information Harry, thank you very much for the tidbit!

 

[woody50]

Re: Second hunt after the freeze in Holland!______BIRD BONE UPDATE

Woody,
Great finds,I would be in the clouds if I found that silver coin from the 1600's. What were the four coin like objects at the top of your picture? Wish I was detecting in Europe....Kane 23

Silver coins in Holland are scarce compared to England, but when you find one the most come from the 17th century, that is because Holland was part of a larger Dutch confederation and became the cultural, political and economic centre of the United Provinces in the 17th century Dutch Golden Age, and was the wealthiest nation in the world.

The 4 objects are also coins from the 17th century also, but copper. In pretty bad shape due to the acid rain and I cannot see a date on them, have to clean them up first.

 

[trikikiwi]

Re: Second hunt after the freeze in Holland!______BIRD BONE UPDATE

A very interesting Thread to read, Thanks for posting Woody.

I'm hoping to hear of a positive ID on the pigeon as an old 'warrior', as Harry suggested.
Mike

 

[woody50]

Re: Second hunt after the freeze in Holland!______BIRD BONE UPDATE

A very interesting Thread to read, Thanks for posting Woody.

I'm hoping to hear of a positive ID on the pigeon as an old 'warrior', as Harry suggested.
Mike

Thanks for reading it Mike. I am busy with the pigeon idea, have received an answer already from the
Netherlands Union for Bird Enthusiasts. They sent a nice reply saying that the 1945 appears to be
an year, and in that year the bird could have been killed and the ring and bone disappeared into
the ground. They say also at that time there were no breeding identification on the rings, so we could
not trace the source of the bird. Also which sort of bird it is could only be ID by an expensive DNA
test, but I do have maybe an idea about the bone type, maybe it could be ID's by a pigeon lover to
have being belonged to a Pigeon, or not. So have not given up yet.

What Harry Morant has mentioned about the "82 Operation Market-Garden pigeons" is correct but
the Market-Garden operations was during the period September 17–25, 1944. So I don't think a
ring marked 1945 would be placed on a pigeon then.

Although... In World War II and later During World War II, the United Kingdom used about 250,000
messenger pigeons. The Dickin Medal, which is the highest possible animal's decoration for valor,
was awarded to 32 pigeons. The war in Holland was over (or the allies had control) in May to
August 1945, so the pigeon could have been used in the first few months of 1945.

That is what I am now going to investigate, and then in England, to see if this bird was a part of
those quarter of a million birds, and if they had been ringed before being used (I would imagine
so, to insure that the receiver knew where the bird came from).

Just interesting to research this I guess.... More later when I know more.