✅ SOLVED Settle a debate or start one on CW bullets?

[Dug]

Hi; Lately I have being seeing a lot of bullets similar to this one posted on the internet. There appears to be three different trains of thought as to what has caused the nose deformity. 1. Pulled bullet. 2. Mark left when ramrod tamps the bullet too hard. 3. Ramrod still in weapon when bullet was fired.

1. If the consensus is that it is a pulled bullet, I am curious as to what tool would leave that mark while being able to pull it out of the barrel? There is no screw hole in the nose, nor are there any telltale marks that would be left by a scroll type extractor.

2. Can a ramrod be jammed down hard enough by hand to leave this type mark?

3. If it was a ramrod fired mark, then there are an amazing amount of bullets seen on the internet with this mark indicating that it was fairly common for soldiers to panic and shoot their ramrods away.

What left this deformity?

 

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[releventchair]

Soft lead deforms easy enough. Shape of damage looks like the end of a loading rod.
Some guys use solid brass rods. Better balance in a butt heavy designed gun.
But a pounding with even a wood rod could deform the bullet nose.
A dirty barrel requires more force to load.
Bouncing the loading rod can help insure bullet is seated. Checking a load stayed seated now and then possible....and in a found or captured weapon dropping the ramrod can tell if a charge is loaded already.
Reloading under stress, pounding the bullet home on top of the powder is quite believable.

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

It's not a pulled bullet - a bullet puller is a screw that leaves a hole in the nose.

Maybe a VERY hard push to set a stuck bullet. I have used obliging trees to get mine fully seated with a sharp jab like I was bayoneting the tree with the rammer.

Fired with rammer - would be identical marks to what happened above. But I would tend to think it didn't happen much. You're out of service until you find another.

 

[Dug]

I'll buy 2 & 3, with 3 being a rare situation.

Here is some pics out of my meager collection. If someone has a better pic of a wormed bullet I'd love to have the pic.

Williams cleaner top with worm marks, .58 with a screw type mark, two .58s jammed on each other with a ramrod mark discussed above.

 

[1320]

I don't think I've ever seen a ramrod tip recovered by a detectorist. Surely if ramrods were consistently in the barrel when the round was fired, reasonably folks should be finding the tips. I'm not sure that even if the bullet is fired with the ramrod in the barrel that it would leave that shape. The rod would be loose in the barrel and shouldn't pose much of a restriction. Not to mention, the deformity is very consistent from all that I've seen, I have recovered one myself, it looks the same as all I've ever seen.

The one that I found has a tall dimple that really doesn't fit the shape of a ramrod, it looks to me as if another round was seated on it at some point. If that was the case then one of two scenarios unfolded: Both bullets were fired at the same time or the top most bullet was wormed out and the first load was fired.

Again, the consistency in the shape of the deformity across the wide spectrum of these examples should be telling us something obvious. Good question, great post.

 

[1320]

I'll buy 2 & 3, with 3 being a rare situation.

Here is some pics out of my meager collection. If someone has a better pic of a wormed bullet I'd love to have the pic.

Williams cleaner top with worm marks, .58 with a screw type mark, two .58s jammed on each other with a ramrod mark discussed above.

View attachment 1421660

I'd like to see the nose of the .58 bottom bullet but please, don't take them apart....lol.

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

Your two Minnies stacked add another thought.

Double-balling is still used by some hunters who feel one may need some help. If you're firing at a massed group it has added chance of damage.

So the mark on the nose may be from the base of the second bullet.

I go with the physics of one ball well aimed is better than two at a lesser velocity (2X the mass w/same powder) banging into each other.

 

[DCMatt]

Here is a little fuel for this fire. The following is from an 1897 book "History of Hampshire County, West Virginia". The man in the story lived to tell the tale:

Boney carried a Mississippi rifle, which soon became foul. He was in the thick of the fight and had fired until he could not ram another bullet down. His gun was choked, and at that critical moment a retreat was ordered. Just then a bullet struck him in the thigh. It roused his ire and he turned upon the advancing Yankees and putting his ramrod against a tree, tried to push the bullet down and in the endeavor his ramrod became fast in the barrel. He raised his gun, fired ramrod and all at the enemy,

I doubt "firing a ramrod" happened very often, but it did happen.

I am a believer in the ramrod marks on the noses of bullets. That's why they issued Williams cleaners - because poor quality gunpowder would foul the barrel after a few shots and the cleaner bullets were intended to remove the fouling.

DCMatt

 

[Dug]

I'd like to see the nose of the .58 bottom bullet but please, don't take them apart....lol.

Although I would never try, I'm not sure they could come apart; they were dug in a saltwater bank and corrosion had already started. I would not have tried digging wet salt sand but did after eyeballing one exposed 3 ringer. Glad I tried it as I ended up with a hand full.

 

[BosnMate]

Maybe a VERY hard push to set a stuck bullet. I have used obliging trees to get mine fully seated with a sharp jab like I was bayoneting the tree with the rammer.

And I thought I was the only guy to ever do that. Had a friend accidentally shoot his wooden ram rod, which of course was broken in the process. You should have seen how far that ram rod penetrated an oak tree. Very impressive.

 

[BosnMate]

Here is a picture of an 1861 Springfield ramrod. I'm not going to search any more than this one. It seems to me that if there were fired, all metal ramrods on battle fields, then I think there would be at least a few being found. The tulip tip would make the indent on the bullet, but I suspect it was from pounding the bullet down onto the powder. This could be accomplished by bouncing the heavy metal rod, which would also deform the tip of the bullet.

Oops, forgot the picture.