She was only 3 days old.

[Bigcypresshunter]

I posted this here last year, but have yet to positively ID. We have some new members and I could get some new thoughts. It is silver and very THIN like a tag and the size of a quarter. Its hand engraved on the front in Old English copperplate script:

Jo-Ann L. Hall
12-30-43--1-2-44

There are some official looking numbers on the back: G-1506.

The back is also hand engraved. The numbers may coincide with a US military grave plot but what cemetery?... What century?

Plot G- Row 15- Grave 06?

 

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[Bigcypresshunter]

One of my MD friends is a former mortician. I'll ask what he knows. We actually have a Crematorium in my small town also.

Maggie

Thanks. Let us know what he says. I pretty much ruled out cremation tag. It just doesnt fit.

Hmmmm,

That's interesting. None of the tags I've seen look like they have been through a fire. If the heat will melt
orthopedic implants, wouldn't it melt the tag?

Stainless steel tags and implant pins are not affected by fire as far as I know..

 

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[Broken knee]

One of my MD friends is a former mortician. I'll ask what he knows. We actually have a Crematorium in my small town also.

Maggie

Thanks. Let us know what he says. I pretty much ruled out cremation tag. It just doesnt fit.

Hmmmm,

That's interesting. None of the tags I've seen look like they have been through a fire. If the heat will melt
orthopedic implants, wouldn't it melt the tag?

Stainless steel tags and implant pins are not affected by fire as far as I know..

Most implants are made of titanium, Titanium has a high melting point of 3135°F (1725°C). This melting point is approximately 400°F (220°C) above the melting point of steel and the tag BCH has I think is silver
Broken Knee

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Old thread but Breezie may have just solved it. I knew it was not a cremation tag. Nobody mentioned this before (maybe I missed it) but it may be an urn tag.

Heres the conversation that may have solved it. I need someone to help me find a few examples before I post the green check. I would like to find one with one nail hole. Thanks to all. TN is a great resource..

Also, if it were an urn tag, it would have 2 dates; one for birth, one for death. If it were a crematory tag, it would have a generic number like those pictured by BCH.

Breezie, what is the difference between an urn tag and a crematory tag, in terms of use and can you post an example? Thanks this may solve my item. I never heard this before.

BCH, I'm not sure if the terminology of 'urn tag' vs. 'crematory tag' is proper or not, but this is how I think it is:
An urn tag would be a tag put on the ash container stating the person's name, birth & death date; a personal tag; one in which the family had made as as a memorial. These would be in a more fancy script, and on a tag perhaps made from silver or silverplate.

A crematory tag would be a tag made/produced by the funeral home or company that would ID the ashes; in which is more business related. These would be made in a punched type font, less fancy, and would be made of tin or brass.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Reading back I think creskol first mentioned a tag for a wooden urn. Im sorry I missed it. I still need to see an example before I can call this solved. I want to thank everyone helping.

 

[Breezie]

Reading back I think creskol first mentioned a tag for a wooden urn. Im sorry I missed it. I still need to see an example before I can call this solved. I want to thank everyone helping.

BCH, I'll re-post this in hopes it might help: I think your find & pics are the best examples. The find with Jo-Ann on it would be an example of the 'urn' tag of a personal nature, requested by the family. The others you've posted are more business/company related.

The first modern-day crematorium was established in 1876 in Pennsylvania and this brought cremation to America.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

BCH, I'll re-post this in hopes it might help: I think your find & pics are the best examples.

Im reposting this just for clarification. I have plenty of cremation tag examples but I dont have one single example of a one nail round urn tag like you describe to compare to my item.



Even though I always thought it was much older judging by all the 1700 era items found on that beach (shipwreck wood, spikes and silver cobs) Im leaning in the direction of a WWII era wooden box or urn tag with the military cemetary grave number Plot G- Row 15- Grave 06 engraved on the backside but I really need to compare some examples. Im considering the possibility that all deaths in 1944 were not recorded because I could never locate her on the Florida Death Index unless she is listed simply as baby girl.

I wish I had the name of the cemetary. I have a full name with an exact birth and death date and a grave plot number but still cant find it! Its very frustrating to have so much information but come up empty.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

G-1506. Im going to have to do a more serious search of VA National Cemeterys concentrating on Florida in the WWII era. I think the number system is too close a match to ignore. http://www.quarterhorsecav.org/pg7a.htm She may be listed simply as "baby girl." Any ideas?

http://www.findagrave.com/php/famous.php?FScemeteryid=109404&page=cem

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

_________________________________________________________________________________

I moved your reply (above) here from Steve in PA's love token post because I dont want to hijack his post any further.


Thanks SS. I cant find a match on that site or any other. https://www.familysearch.org/search...e:jo-ann~ +surname:hall~ +any_year:1843-1844~ The treasure beach location is a known 1715 shipwreck site with an unknown English wood sailing vessel mixed in. In 1843 the area consisted of increasingly hostile Indians and one US Army fort that was abandoned by 1850. If it came from the English shipwreck, they would have come from the Carribbean by means of the Gulfstream.
Yes the baby could possibly even have born and died at sea which made me originally think of some kind of a coffin tag with a nail hole. I need to check back with the salvage company on that wrecksite to see if they have yet identified or dated the English shipwreck.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Same search 1943 nada. The name is very specific even with a middle initial L.
https://www.familysearch.org/search...e:jo-ann~ +surname:hall~ +any_year:1943-1944~

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Sorry to bump up an old thread but this token/tag still remains unsolved although there are many possibilities.

Im bumping it up because I want several members to add their thoughts to my thread.

It is silver and very THIN like a tag and the diameter of a US quarter. Its hand engraved on the front in Old English copperplate script. The dates are 3 days apart.

Jo-Ann L. Hall
12-30-43--1-2-44

There are some official looking numbers on the back; on close inspection with a loupe I discovered they are also hand engraved: G-1506.

My friend sent it to an archaeologist who suggested it may be grave numbers. The numbers may coincide with a US military grave plot but what cemetery?... What century?

Plot G- Row 15- Grave 06?

I have ruled out cremation tag because silver would melt in a fire, I haven't found a silver example and cremations were not common in 1844 or before. But it may be an urn tag tossed out to sea.

My friend an I found this tag and some broken square brass nails, like the one pictured, on a Treasure Coast beach, in Florida, after 2 successive hurricanes ripped the coast stripping 10 feet of sand directly across from a known 1715 fleet shipwreck and an unidentified British shipwreck offshore. I first thought it was a junk telephone pole tag until my friend scraped off the coral revealing the old script.

 

[Nitric]

That is interesting! I read a few pages, I didn't read the whole thread. A lot of what I thought was already posted. I first thought was a love token. They were made on silver quarters, I've found them as far back that they were on seated quarters, and even found one on a washington quarter, actually still have a few seated, but they were usually more ornate. My thought was maybe a date of marriage then the date the guy left for war. Or the the day he may have died in war. and she wore it on a chain around her neck. Now, I'm not sure? The numbers on the back don't make any sense to me. And does look like it may have been an ID tag of some kind? I'll dig some more!

 

[Crispin]

Okay folks, from a medical standpoint it makes no sense for somebody to die at three days old during that time period...

From a medical standpoint.....I doubt it is a coffin tag of a three day old. With the medical help available at that time the baby would have been stillborn or died within 24hours. Babies born with birthing complications back then died almost within the hour. They didn't have a NICU. I highly doubt it is the coffin tag of a three day old. Those dates must represent something else.

 

[Crispin]

Here is my idea...

It was not uncommon for marriage ceremonies to last for several days hundreds of years ago. Perhaps it is the date of the wedding party... 12/30/43 to 1/2/44. Three days for the ultra rich 300 to 400 years ago was about the average time for a wedding celebration.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

That is interesting! I read a few pages, I didn't read the whole thread. A lot of what I thought was already posted. I first thought was a love token. They were made on silver quarters, I've found them as far back that they were on seated quarters, and even found one on a washington quarter, actually still have a few seated, but they were usually more ornate. My thought was maybe a date of marriage then the date the guy left for war. Or the the day he may have died in war. and she wore it on a chain around her neck. Now, I'm not sure? The numbers on the back don't make any sense to me. And does look like it may have been an ID tag of some kind? I'll dig some more!

It may be a thin love token but why the numbers on the back? What importance could they have on a love token?

I cant dig anymore unfortunately because this was a beach find. After a hurricane there is only a small window of opportunity to dig really old stuff on the Treasure Coast. There is now 10 feet of sand back on top of the location. The good stuff is now 10 feet deep.

I wait patiently, like every other treasure hunter, for the next hurricane to hit the Treasure Coast of Florida.

 

[nhbenz]

Crispin, are you saying it's more likely to be from an ultra rich family's wedding and noting just the brides name than it is for it to be from the death of an infant at a time when infant mortality in London (for example) was around 50 percent? Of course a baby can die at 3 days... You did do a rotation in Peds didn't you?

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Okay folks, from a medical standpoint it makes no sense for somebody to die at three days old during that time period...

From a medical standpoint.....I doubt it is a coffin tag of a three day old. With the medical help available at that time the baby would have been stillborn or died within 24hours. Babies born with birthing complications back then died almost within the hour. They didn't have a NICU. I highly doubt it is the coffin tag of a three day old. Those dates must represent something else.

Thanks for your insight as a doctor. If they are not birth and death dates, it would throw out my best theories.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Heres an interesting link: Understanding Your Ancestors: Western European Ancestors: Demographics: Death and Illness

 

[DCMatt]

BcH - Maybe a clue on the century is the use of the hypen in Jo-Ann. I did a quick and un-scientific search for "Jo-Ann" in Google books. Not very many examples came up in the 19th C search and most of those were very late in the C. Many more showed in the 20th C search. I know it doesn't prove anything. But it leans me towards the 20th.

DCMatt

 

[DCMatt]

Here's something I hever heard of before - a foundling token.



No idea why a foundling token would have 2 dates on it, though...

 

[DCMatt]