She was only 3 days old.

[Bigcypresshunter]

I posted this here last year, but have yet to positively ID. We have some new members and I could get some new thoughts. It is silver and very THIN like a tag and the size of a quarter. Its hand engraved on the front in Old English copperplate script:

Jo-Ann L. Hall
12-30-43--1-2-44

There are some official looking numbers on the back: G-1506.

The back is also hand engraved. The numbers may coincide with a US military grave plot but what cemetery?... What century?

Plot G- Row 15- Grave 06?

 

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[Bigcypresshunter]

BcH - Maybe a clue on the century is the use of the hypen in Jo-Ann. I did a quick and un-scientific search for "Jo-Ann" in Google books. Not very many examples came up in the 19th C search and most of those were very late in the C. Many more showed in the 20th C search. I know it doesn't prove anything. But it leans me towards the 20th.

DCMatt

You gave me an idea. I could look at the Jo-Ann L. Halls living today and if they were alive in 1944, I could contact them and ask questions. They would be have to be at least 80 years old. Were any of those from Florida? This beach was extremely remote in 1944, certainly not used by tourists but it was used by the US Navy.

 

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[Crispin]

Crispin, are you saying it's more likely to be from an ultra rich family's wedding and noting just the brides name than it is for it to be from the death of an infant at a time when infant mortality in London (for example) was around 50 percent? Of course a baby can die at 3 days... You did do a rotation in Peds didn't you?

If it is from the 1900s...then yes. Babies died at 3 days all the time. If it is from the 1700s and 1800s...then no. They didn't have the technology to keep a baby that sick alive for three days. It most likely would have died during childbirth process or immediately thereafter. Newborns are very fragile...although, I guess jaundice could have got it...

Yeah, I did a month on the Pediatric Intensive Care unit. Worked non-stop, slept in hospital every third night, no off days. Extremely depressing. Saw a lot of death.

 

[Nitric]

You gave me an idea. I could look at the Jo-Ann L. Halls living today and if they were alive in 1944, I could contact them and ask questions. They would be have to be at least 80 years old. Were any of those from Florida? This beach was extremely remote in 1944, certainly not used by tourists but it was used by the US Navy.

Maybe, look up the last name for the navy records for that area. if possible. not sure how hard that would be.

 

[Nitric]

If it is from the 1900s...then yes. Babies died at 3 days all the time. If it is from the 1700s and 1800s...then no. They didn't have the technology to keep a baby that sick alive for three days. It most likely would have died during childbirth process or immediately thereafter. Newborns are very fragile...although, I guess jaundice could have got it...

Yeah, I did a month on the Pediatric Intensive Care unit. Worked non-stop, slept in hospital every third night, no off days. Extremely depressing. Saw a lot of death.

They can do some amazing things now, Just went through that with a 2lb 12oz.Pre-eclampsia , Pda ,svt's,jaundice(which is common) all kinds of scary to us stuff! He lived in an aquarium(I know, i said it to joke) for a couple of months. They can't even generate their own body heat. I can't imagine 50 years ago, 100 years ago or more would have been low chance if any in some cases. 100 years ago they would both be dead. Was close enough as it was!

Sry, off topic again! I have a wandering attention span! Or none!

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

There is a Joan L. Hall living in Zephyrhills, Florida. It says 65+. Joan Hall in Zephyrhills FL | Whitepages

There are a bunch of Joan L Halls but none are old enough. http://www.publicrecords360.com/people-search/hall/joann/l

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Maybe, look up the last name for the navy records for that area. if possible. not sure how hard that would be.

I believe I already done that but I will check back.


I searched the soldier and settler list of people living at the nearby US Army's Fort Vinton in 1840 and curiously there was a Hall listed. Sergeant Hall shot and killed the famous Indian chief and last of the Calusas named Chekika in the Florida Everglades. But thats too much speculation to think it was his daughter.

The US Army established a post at Fort Vinton in 1842. The first settlers arrived in Indian River with promise of land if they bear arms against the Indians. But the inhabitants of this county were driven from it on account of Indian hostilities, and few of them would return. By 1850, Ft. Vinton was abandoned. Was JoAnn L. Hall a child from this failed original Indian River colony?

By 1850 there were no white settlers in the area.

 

[nhbenz]

If it is from the 1900s...then yes. Babies died at 3 days all the time. If it is from the 1700s and 1800s...then no. They didn't have the technology to keep a baby that sick alive for three days. It most likely would have died during childbirth process or immediately thereafter. Newborns are very fragile...although, I guess jaundice could have got it...

Yeah, I did a month on the Pediatric Intensive Care unit. Worked non-stop, slept in hospital every third night, no off days. Extremely depressing. Saw a lot of death.

My wife, a pediatrician, is laughing out loud at this... The whole thing.

 

[Crispin]

My wife, a pediatrician, is laughing out loud at this... The whole thing.

Glad your wife is entertained. It is just a theory, I was trying to brainstorm a reason it would be something other then born and death dates. I don't treat children so...if she feels this is way off base then that's cool. It was just a thought.

FYI: I didn't find it funny when a baby was brought in completely unresponsive with bilateral retinal hemorrhages. The police didn't find it funny when that child died two days later. The wife didn't find it funny when the husband was arrested.

 

[Crispin]

I'm out for the night. I was having a good time between this thread and a couple of the others, but things stopped being enjoyable....peace...

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Here's something I hever heard of before - a foundling token.

View attachment 1199150

No idea why a foundling token would have 2 dates on it, though...

Interesting I didnt know about foundling tokens. http://www.coram.org.uk/our-heritage-foundling-hospital/love-tokens But like you say it doesnt explain the 2 dates three days apart. The 2 dates I think are key to solving this and the engraved numbers on the backside must have significance. With a loupe, I can see they are indeed engraved, not machine stamped.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I don't treat children so......
....It was just a thought.

because nhbenz's wife is in pediatrics, and he has solved many TN mysteries in the past, Im going to assume its possible for a child to live 3 days in the 1800s or 1700s. Birth and death dates are still my best theory and the backside numbers must be important. However it could be 3 days of something else.


BTW Jo-Ann L. Hall or any name similar was not found in an extensive search of the Florida Death Index. A lady searched for me. Im looking for the old post. So maybe that kinda rules out a modern urn tag.

I found some better pics resized from my old scanner:

 

[trikikiwi]

Okay folks, from a medical standpoint it makes no sense for somebody to die at three days old during that time period...

From a medical standpoint.....I doubt it is a coffin tag of a three day old. With the medical help available at that time the baby would have been stillborn or died within 24hours. Babies born with birthing complications back then died almost within the hour. They didn't have a NICU. I highly doubt it is the coffin tag of a three day old. Those dates must represent something else.

This stands as the most ridiculous, arrogant and misleading statement I have ever read on TreasureNet. You should congratulate yourself.

 

[trikikiwi]

If it is from the 1900s...then yes. Babies died at 3 days all the time. If it is from the 1700s and 1800s...then no. They didn't have the technology to keep a baby that sick alive for three days. It most likely would have died during childbirth process or immediately thereafter. Newborns are very fragile...although, I guess jaundice could have got it...

Yeah, I did a month on the Pediatric Intensive Care unit. Worked non-stop, slept in hospital every third night, no off days. Extremely depressing. Saw a lot of death.

This is a close second.

 

[Crispin]

This stands as the most ridiculous, arrogant and misleading statement I have ever read on TreasureNet. You should congratulate yourself.

Yeah, well that really was not a very nice thing to say. I hope whatever deep seeded anger inside you is now satiated for a few hours. I will just go back to digging up my fire nuggets and taking as poor pictures as possible. Thank you for hurting my feelings. You should congratulate yourself.

 

[trikikiwi]

Yeah, well that really was not a very nice thing to say. I hope whatever deep seeded anger inside you is now satiated for a few hours. I will just go back to digging up my fire nuggets and taking as poor pictures as possible. Thank you for hurting my feelings. You should congratulate yourself.

It's not a personal thing Crispin. I want to protect the integrity of this site. There is no need for supposed qualified people to make completely unqualified statements. You claim a certain status, yet make certain claims without any proof.

I look forward to your obvious keen and intelligent interest in furthering the greater cause of our community here on TreasureNet.
Cheers, Mike

 

[Crispin]

It's not a personal thing Crispin. I want to protect the integrity of this site. There is no need for supposed qualified people to make completely unqualified statements. You claim a certain status, yet make certain claims without any proof.

I look forward to your obvious keen and intelligent interest in furthering the greater cause of our community here on TreasureNet.
Cheers, Mike

It was absolutely a personal comment. It is hard to get any more personal then that. All I was doing was speculating that it would be harder for a sick baby to survive three days in the 1700 and 1800s because of the lack of any viable medical support. I would think that if a baby was going to have a failure to thrive it probably would have died in the first 24hours or so. This is a reasonable statement. We don't have statistics on infant mortality so there is no proof. I'm not going to say anything else about it. We got people posting crazy theories all the time...I don't remember anybody appointing you as Captain of protecting TNET integrity.

As for for my professional qualifications. We have been there and done that through these threads. Last person who accused me of lying about being a medical doctor got a one week ban. Treasure Hunter knows me personally, and he has stated it is not allowed to question that. If you don't like my medical opinion, fine, great, doctors disagree with each other all the time. This is my only source of social media as I have to keep my identity so well protected. I would appreciate it if you allow me the freedom to give my opinions without scorn.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

All I was doing was speculating that it would be harder for a sick baby to survive three days in the 1700 and 1800s because of the lack of any viable medical support. I would think that if a baby was going to have a failure to thrive it probably would have died in the first 24hours or so. This is a reasonable statement. We don't have statistics on infant mortality so there is no proof.

Ok thanks for your professional opinion. I will consider it. However we have another professional opinion that disagrees with yours. I guess that's the norm with doctors lol.

I will take your opinion and I will try to research it further. So far the only statistics I found is that babies often died within the first year.

294 of every one thousand babies born died before age one in Germany

When looking for death records, the most important thing to remember is that early deaths, particularly infant deaths, were common. Nearly every parent lost a young child

 

[Nitric]

Ok thanks for your professional opinion. I will consider it. However we have another professional opinion that disagrees with yours. I guess that's the norm with doctors lol.

I will take your opinion and I will try to research it further. So far the only statistics I found is that babies often died within the first year.

Not to get into the middle of this debate! But I do question everything. I guess my questions, Would be what countries and were some more advanced than others. We always think the U.S is so advanced in the medical area. Maybe it is now? I don't know that. I do know that wasn't always true in the past. So, information from a different area in the world in different times might be way off. S.Africa did the first heart transplant.(if I remember right). But you wouldn't want to have went to that hospital in different parts of history after that. So, time period,area,what was going on at the time,is going to make a difference. I guess, you would have to know where you think the token originated from. That would be the tough part. Even then? anything is possible. Just thoughts after reading the last few pages. The 40's, was that in the era cigarettes were good for you? How many baby deaths were a result of that without knowing the cause. Today, we blame everything on smoking, it's like the catch all. What was going on at the time! War? Any plagues, colds,flu,government experiments? or medical experiments? It was meant as a joke ,but true! Also, history of drugs! What drugs were popular in what time period,coke,heroin,morphine, were all commonly used at home at different times, and could cause a baby death if the mom used. Not sure about all this, just ideas!

Oh and yes, I had two doctors in the same office tell me two completely different things, on separate visits! I find that a lot in this part of GA. Compared to other areas.

 

[Nitric]

Ohh I forgot my whole point again, and side railed rambling about who knows what!

The numbers on the back, look like an ID, have no idea what reasons they would be there, other than an ID. I might be way off! ID of luggage,body,Whether alive or dead.Maybe even equipment, or even a product? It just looks too different style than the front. Just thoughts, maybe already mentioned

The front looks hand carved or ornate. The back looks stamped, like in uniform, so there is no confusion of what it says! That looks like the purpose to me. The "real" ID.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

So, time period,area,what was going on at the time,is going to make a difference. I guess, you would have to know where you think the token originated from. That would be the tough part. .

The name Hall appears to be English or American. I dont know what century. Nobody has yet been able to find a Jo-Ann, Joan, or Joanne Hall matching either date on any birth or death records so far and I would think a 20th century death would be on record. Anybody here good with birth/death record searching? A worker searched the Florida Death Index for me but came up empty. She suggested it may be from the failed colony. Maybe its from another state and we missed it?

There is a 1715 Spanish and unknown English shipwreck directly offshore. There was the failed colony around 1844, abandoned by 1850 and the beach location was a Navy Tracking Station during WWII. Someone suggested it may be a WWII sweetheart token and the dates coincide with 3 days of fun.