SOLVED! Ambrotype Photo Civil War Militia Member Georgia

[hombre_de_plata_flaco]

Any military guys here that can identify who these two are fighting for? I am going to be really embarrassed if it is the US.

Even with a loupe I can't make out the first letter on the hat of the first guy. It's either "D" "O" or "Q" (I think). The second letter appears to be a "U".

 

[hombre_de_plata_flaco]

Re: Tin Type Photos of Soldiers - but from what army?

Perhaps dude in pic #1 really isn't a pre-war militia member?

Could the guy in the first pic be a graduate of GMI? GMI (Georgia Military Institute) was a military academy much like West Point or VMI.

Here is some text from a Google Books link that describes the uniform of a GMI cadet. They wore shako's with the GA State Seal and Eagle:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Ol...#v=onepage&q=georgia state seal shako&f=false

GMI HISTORY:

GMI was established in Marietta, Georgia, on July 1, 1851. The campus consisted of 110 acres (0.45 km2).

Seven students started classes in July and twenty-eight men were in attendance by the end of the first year.

GMI operated regularly until the spring of 1864 when the cadets were formed into two companies and deployed to West Point, Georgia, as a result of the Civil War.

During the course of the Civil War, superintendent Francis W. Capers sent cadets to use as drill instructors for CSA, and other cadets volunteered or were drafted. On May 14, 1864, GMI Cadets fought in the Battle of Resaca and made contact with the 9th Illinois Mounted Infantry regiment. After this single engagement, the cadets were pulled off the front line.

The empty campus was burned by Sherman's troops on November 15, 1864. Following the Civil War, Georgia Military Institute was not rebuilt. In its place was founded North Georgia Agricultural College in Dahlonega, Georgia, as the Military College of Georgia.

To honor the legacy of GMI, the Georgia Army National Guard named its Officer Candidate School after it in 1961. In 2008, GMI returned to Marietta.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Military_Institute

GMI was established in 1851, and Ambrotypes were first being used during this same period. GMI was burned in 1964, and Ambotypes had begun giving way to Tintypes by this time as well. So, if this guy in pic 1 is a GMI cadet then we should be looking at a time period of 1851 - 1864.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: Tin Type Photos of Soldiers - but from what army?

Perhaps dude in pic #1 really isn't a pre-war militia member?

Could the guy in the first pic be a graduate of GMI? GMI (Georgia Military Institute) was a military academy much like West Point or VMI.

Here is some text from a Google Books link that describes the uniform of a GMI cadet. They wore shako's with the GA State Seal and Eagle:

My first thought was a cadet.
I wrote a long post and then deleted it because I dont know.

We need to ID the 2 letters on the hat. Im assuming the backwards G may stand for Georgia.
Yesterday I did a search of Georgia military schools that would fit UG and came up empty so far.

I dont know if a military school would be called a University.

 

[hombre_de_plata_flaco]

Re: Tin Type Photos of Soldiers - but from what army?

Perhaps dude in pic #1 really isn't a pre-war militia member?

Could the guy in the first pic be a graduate of GMI? GMI (Georgia Military Institute) was a military academy much like West Point or VMI.

Here is some text from a Google Books link that describes the uniform of a GMI cadet. They wore shako's with the GA State Seal and Eagle:

My first thought was a cadet. I wrote a long post and then deleted it because I dont know. We need to ID the 2 letters

Never mind. He's probably not a GMI cadet lol:

Private collector David Wynn Vaughan of Atlanta, GA has arguably the largest collection of Civil War Confederate images in the nation, many of them identified. The exhibition features 70 images in nine thematic sections. One section highlights his rare collection of eight of the known 12 portraits of cadets at the Georgia Military Institute. Other sections include Citizen Soldiers, Snapshots in Time, Civil War Photography, Dressed for the Photographer, Brothers in Arms, Youth at War and Bowie Knives and Muskets.

http://www.southernmuseum.org/exhibits/portraits-in-gray/

The fact that there are only 12 known portraits of GMI cadets leads me to believe this ain't one of em'...

He also wrote this:

http://www.go-star.com/antiquing/collecting-confederate-images.htm

Here are the 8 GMI pics he has for comparison. I don't see any resemblance other than the seal:

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.116140535109575.18931.110628635660765

I think both these pics are "Quarter Plate"

Common Civil War Era Photograph Sizes

Whole plate: 6 ½ x 8 ½ inches
Half plate: 4 ½ x 5 ½ inches
Quarter plate: 3 ¼ x 4 ¼ inches
Sixth plate: 2 ¾ x 3 ½ inches
Eighth plate: 2 1/8 x 3 ¼ inches
Ninth plate: 2 x 2 ½ inches
Sixteenth plate: 1 3/8 x 1 5/8 inches
Gem: 7/8 x ¾ inches
Carte de Visite: 4 ¼ x 2 ½ inches

 

[hombre_de_plata_flaco]

Re: Tin Type Photos of Soldiers - but from what army?

We need to ID the 2 letters on the hat. Im assuming the backwards G may stand for Georgia.
Yesterday I did a search of Georgia military schools that would fit UG and came up empty so far.

OK, I think I might have found it this time. The "UG" stands for "Upson Guard"

From the Google Book:

American Civil War armies: Volunteer militia
By Philip Katcher, Ron Volstad

http://books.google.com/books?id=hm...AEwBg#v=snippet&q=georgia shako upson&f=false

 

[Tuberale]

Re: Tin Type Photos of Soldiers - but from what army?

Sorry to rain on the parade grounds. I don't see the "3 rows of 6 buttons" on the coat in the photo.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: Tin Type Photos of Soldiers - but from what army?

Your a pretty good researcher Tuco!
All you need to do now is get the names of the Upson Guard officers starting with the Colonel(s)
and try to match the face.

Maybe CannonBallGuy could explain the buttons.

 

[hombre_de_plata_flaco]

Re: Tin Type Photos of Soldiers - but from what army?

Sorry to rain on the parade grounds. I don't see the "3 rows of 6 buttons" on the coat in the photo.

Continue to the part that says "For fatigue the unit wore plain, dark blue jackets".

I think the guy could have been wearing his plain jacket and fancy hat combo. Civil War fashion faux pas.

 

[Tuberale]

Re: Tin Type Photos of Soldiers - but from what army?

Sorry to rain on the parade grounds. I don't see the "3 rows of 6 buttons" on the coat in the photo.

Continue to the part that says "For fatigue the unit wore plain, dark blue jackets".

I think the guy could have been wearing his plain jacket and fancy hat combo. Civil War fashion faux pas.

Indeed. Tres faux pas.

Odd there was no inclusion of all those buttons on the fatique coatee, though.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: Tin Type Photos of Soldiers - but from what army?

Its got to be it. How many other Georgia outfits could have UG in a wreath, under the coat of arms, with a yellow pompon..etc ?

Congratulations I think you have IDed your uniform and I hope it brings some bucks.
I would keep trying for the officers name but it may be tough.

 

[hombre_de_plata_flaco]

Re: Tin Type Photos of Soldiers - but from what army?

Its got to be it. How many other Georgia outfits could have UG in a wreath, under the coat of arms, with a yellow pompon..etc ?

Congratulations I think you have IDed your uniform and I hope it brings some bucks.
I would keep trying for the officers name but it may be tough.

I'm not too optimistic about finding out the guys name, but I did find this:

On Tuesday, Mary 7, 1861, the first company left Thomaston, Company K of the 5th Regiment, known as the Upson Guards.

Officers at that time were:

Thomas Beall, Captain
Wm. G. Horsley, 1st Lieut
Wm. O. Sandwich, 2nd Lieut
Jacob S. King, 3rd Lietu
A.S. Brooks, Ensign
E.A. Flewellen, surgeon
James H. Rogers, 1st Sgt
F.J. Vining, 2nd Sgt
Wm H. Brown, 3rd Sgt
M.P. Meadows, 4th Sgt
O.T. Mitchell, 1st corp
R.A. Williams, 2nd corp
R.C. Ward, 3rd corp
Thomas R. Drake, 4th corp
R.J. Morgan, Quartermaster
H.T. Jennings, Sec
W.E. Buchanan, fifer
A.H. Beall, drummer

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gaupson/k-5.htm

I'm not all that sure this guy is an officer now. The description in the book says "enlisted men wore buff epaulettes". Rather than an officer, I think this guy is just the strangest and most elaborate dressed enlisted man in the C.S.A.

Surely an officer would have worn some insignia that displayed his rank, or at least the coat with 3 rows of buttons? I'm new at this so your guess is as good as mine.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: Tintype Photos of Soldiers - but from what army?

I'm not all that sure this guy is an officer now. The description in the book says "enlisted men wore buff epaulettes". Rather than an officer, I think this guy is just the strangest and most elaborate dressed enlisted man in the C.S.A.

Surely an officer would have worn some insignia that displayed his rank, or at least the coat with 3 rows of buttons? I'm new at this so your guess is as good as mine.

CannonBall Guy says "Both guys seem to be wearing 9-button single-breasted coats. By the army's official Regulations, those 9-button coats were for Lieutenants, Captains, and Majors."

I thought the epaulettes signified rank.

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Re: Tintype Photos of Soldiers - but from what army?

Just so there be no misunderstanding:
As shown by the book's statement "Enlisted men wore buff [color] epaulettes," the mere presence of an epaulette in a photo does not tell you whether the guy is an officer or an enlisted-man. The epaulette's (original) color, shape, and markings is what tells the wearer's rank.

Although we diggers find only "bare metal" epaulettes, many of what we dig were not just bare metal when they were being worn ...many originally had a cloth/fabric covering.

Also, the actual badge-of-rank on them (such as, a Captain's bars) were affixed to the epaulette's cloth-covered flat top. Unfortunately, that area is not visible in Hombre's photo.

As we see in Hombre's first photo, in that era of photography it was popular to paint a "gold tint" onto certain items in the black-&-white photo -- to make it more attractive by giving it at least "some" color besides black, grey, and white. Of course, that was done at the photographer's studio after the image itself was made. Unfortunately for historical photo-researchers, the gold paint on the image very often has the effect of obscuring identification-details on military buttons, insignia, and belt-plates, etc.

Therefore, all we can say about the epaulettes in Hombe's photo is that they were light-colored. I'm not sure whether even a top-level expert could tell whether they were originally buff or golden.

As I mentioned previously, the general rule during the civil war was that lower-rank officers (Lt, Capt, & Major) coats were specified to be a 9-button single-breasted coat. But prior to the war, and in 1861, there was incomplete "standardization" of military uniforms in both the North and the South. Note in particular the uniforms of various "Zouave" regimental uniforms (in both US and CS army) ...and especially, the Louisianna Tigers Regiment in the Army of Northern Virginia.

Regarding the statement of "3 rows of 6 buttons on the coat":
That arrangement of the coat's buttons was popular for both Militia and Military School uniforms in the mid-1800s.

Also, in SodaBottleBob's scan of the 1861 Harper's Weekly (newspaper) illustration, the Confederate mounted cavalryman is wearing a 3-rows-of-buttons coat.

Note, even now in 2011, that three-rows arrangement of the buttons has continued to be the specification for cadet uniform coats at many military-schools ...and in particular, the Virginia Military Institute. To show you what the 3-rows arrangement looked like, here's a photo of a VMI cadet, from approximately 1910.

Regarding the statement "For fatigue the unit wore plain, dark blue jackets".
Back then, and even into today, there is a significant difference in appearance between a soldier's "Fatigue-duty" uniform and his "Dress" uniform. The Fatigue-duty uniform is his "work-clothes" and the Dress uniform is for wearing on formal occasions (Award-ceremonies, formal dinners, parades, church attendance, etc.).

In summary, it is POSSIBLE that Hombre's theory is correct that soldier #1 is a member of the Upton Guards, wearing a mix of that unit's Dress and Fatigue-duty uniforms.

 

[hombre_de_plata_flaco]

Well, after a hefty amount of reading and some time spent on the phone and driving, I have come to the following conclusions about these photos. The thread will now be marked as "solved", as it pretty much is.

There is good news and bad news.

First the bad. The comments about the 2nd photo were correct in regards to the photo material. I scrounged up enough nerve to remove it from the frame, and the photo is on paper - Kodak paper in fact. It is a photo of an old photo. There is a partial name on the corner of this photo that says "DR *%&$?". I may update the thread after I find some more info about this person. The mystery is still there, but the fact this isn't an original photo kinda sucks.

Now, the good news. After consulting with a historian well versed in the Georgia Confederacy, this photo has been confirmed by him as a Quarter Plate Ambrotype of a yet-unidentified member of the Upson Guard. Not sure of rank or name, but the rest is no longer up in the air. The fact that the photo could have possibly been made while he was a "pre-war militia member" isn't of too awful much consequence in regards to collectable value. Post-1862 photos are very seldom seen due to fact The South was cut off from photography supplies via a blockade. The fact that he is dressed in blue doesn't detract from it either - the color gray wasn't formally adopted until the year when Confederate photos began to dry up - 1862.

Other things this photo has "going for it" include:



Size: The photo is the "Quarter Plate" size (3 ¼ x 4 ¼ inches), which was the third largest common photo size available at that time. The link of the militia-guy photo bigcypresshunter posted that sold for $450 was a Ninth plate (2 x 2 ½ inches), which is a full three sizes smaller than this example. That particular photo came with no identification of the soldiers particular unit either, which brings us to the next criteria - subject matter.

Rarity/Subject Matter: As earlier stated, people really like weapons in the pics. Though whatever weapon he is wearing is not clearly identifiable, he is armed with something. What really makes the photo is the Shako and the hat plate with State Seal emblem. When the image is reversed, the "U G" letters are clearly visible. Like SodaBottleBob mentioned, you don't see many of these photos with Johnny Reb sportin' the Shako..... The hat (and to a lesser extent, the epaulettes) have made possible a positive identification of his State (GA), Regiment (5th Infantry), and Company (K). The most famous battle this unit saw action in was Chickamauga, where they suffered heavy casualties.

Condition: This photo doesn't have any cracks, spots, fading, ect., and the image is clear and sharp. Focus is good. Good tone and lighting were used by the photographer in this case.



After reading up about the hobby of collecting Confederate Images for days, I am now confident that this is quite a nice piece with a good amount of historical significance. Running across an item that belongs on display in a museum isn't something that has happened to me too many times in all my days of junkin'. And though I may never again run across another Ambrotype photograph of a Civil War Soldier, if it were to happen again I would definitely know what to look for this time around.

Thanks again to all the posters that helped me with this by providing all of the great information in this thread. I sincerely appreciate the efforts of all of you. Finding out about these photos has been sort of an obsession as of late, and it feels good to be putting most of the mystery to rest.

Onward to the next find and HH to all!

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

That really is excellent news. I'm delighted to hear it ...and delighted "for" you. Congratulations!

 

[hombre_de_plata_flaco]

That really is excellent news. I'm delighted to hear it ...and delighted "for" you. Congratulations!

Thanks man. I appreciate the info and well wishes. This may be one of the coolest things I have ever run across. After reading so much about these things it seems like a very cool, if somewhat expensive hobby. If I am dropping that kind of dough on something it will be coins.

Here is a reversed version of the image:

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I like that. I need to learn how to do that. (the solved lettering) I wonder if he survived the war?

After my Dad died, I found some family pictures. I hope Im not hijacking your most interesting thread but I want to share the Civil War discharge papers I found from my GGGrandfather who served in the Ohio Volunteers. It appears his leg was amputated.

 

[hombre_de_plata_flaco]

I like that. I need to learn how to do that. (the solved lettering) I wonder if he survived the war?

I am still going to try and answer that question, but as you stated earlier, that may be quite tough. I don't have any other sort of documentation to go along with the photo.

As for the watermark, you will need photoshop but it not very hard to do. Just type text over the image in a light gray color. Go to 'blending options' for the layer and hit 'bevel and emboss'. Then reduce fill and opacity. Flatten image layers and save as JPEG.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

As for the watermark, you will need photoshop but it not very hard to do. Just type text over the image in a light gray color. Go to 'blending options' for the layer and hit 'bevel and emboss'. Then reduce fill and opacity. Flatten image layers and save as JPEG.

Thanks Ill try it.

 

[hombre_de_plata_flaco]

After my Dad died, I found some family pictures. I hope Im not hijacking your most interesting thread but I want to share the Civil War discharge papers I found from my GGGrandfather who served in the Ohio Volunteers I believe. It appears his leg was amputated.

LOL I don't care about threadjacking.

That is a really cool document.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

A member found this pension paper online for me that mentioned the amputation. If he had died, I wouldnt be here. Look to the right "old amputation of right leg...".