Spanish American War Medic Hat pin! Great ID!

[celtex]

Is this a cap badge and from where? My first guess was German due to the cross but I can't find it in memorabilia sites. Thanks for the help!

You guys are awesome as usual!

Thanks to all that looked!

 

[yaxthri]

Of course the cross is soldered to the wreath. What do you think the small brass square plate is for?
This also explains the "double" and different fastening systems...

And a maltses cross has straight pointy cusps not curved ones... I insist, this is a templar cross on a GAR wreath.

Don't think the e-bay ad is really precise or "honest"...

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Of course the cross is soldered to the wreath. What do you think the small brass square plate is for?

How do you know its not glued? Soldered is more professional of course but we are trying to determine if its a hand made fake. I think celtex is the only person that can answer the question. I wonder if the square plate tab is part of the wreath or added on later? It does appear added later. Good eye..

And a maltses cross has straight pointy cusps not curved ones... I insist, this is a templar cross on a GAR wreath.

We have already determined its not a Maltese Cross. It matches a Spanish-American War screwback collar ornament as shown, remember?

View attachment 602207

I am trying to determine if the cluthchback type of fasteners are modern. Does a GAR wreath have cluthchbacks? This type of hat badge wreath has been used for many years so it may be best to date it by the fasteners.

 

[Retired Sarge]

Re: Hat/Cap Badge? German? Age?

FYI bigcypresshunter the US Military is still using screwback fastners on service caps. To me it looks like the cross was added later JMHO.

Mike
USAF Retired

Mike, were clutch back type fasteners used on service caps?

Not to my knowledge, now Berets, flight caps and beenies did use the clutch back fasteners. Also if you look at a service caps insignia there is a pin on the top of the insignia to help keep it straight. There is a eyelet in the cap for the screw post to go through.

As soon as I can find batteries for the camera, I will PM some pictures of the back of a badge for you and of the service cap to show you what I mean.

Mike
USAF Retired

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I am familiar with the top pin to keep it straight.

I guess what Im trying to do is date the wreath by the cluthchback fastener.

 

[yaxthri]

"We have already determined its not a Maltese Cross. It matches a Spanish-American War screwback collar ornament as shown, remember?"

Ooops... Actually I didn't remember, sorry my mistake...

 

[GpSnoopy]

"We have already determined its not a Maltese Cross. It matches a Spanish-American War screwback collar ornament as shown, remember?"

Ooops... Actually I didn't remember, sorry my mistake...

That's my fault, yaxthri. I was using the generic term "maltese cross" based on the shape, before it was ID'd as a Spanish Medic Corps ornament.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

"We have already determined its not a Maltese Cross. It matches a Spanish-American War screwback collar ornament as shown, remember?"

Ooops... Actually I didn't remember, sorry my mistake...

I think if its authentic, there should be another. I dont know how we could prove, here on this forum, on whether its authentic or not, if its a good solder job. Good clear closeups of the solder joints may help, celtex.

 

[GpSnoopy]

I came across a couple of other forums this badge was posted in, and they all used the same eBay link as proof of what it was. I just keep going in circles by finding the same "proof". Sofar, IMHO, I see a GAR type badge that was modified by adding the Spanish medics corps collar insignia. At least until I see another example or description from another source.

 

[creskol]

I came across a couple of other forums this badge was posted in, and they all used the same eBay link as proof of what it was. I just keep going in circles by finding the same "proof". Sofar, IMHO, I see a GAR type badge that was modified by adding the Spanish medics corps collar insignia. At least until I see another example or description from another source.

I didn't offer the ebay link as "proof" of anything. My "proof" was that it is a Spanish American War Medical Corps insignia with a screw stud on it, as NOBODY could identify the mysterious cross ... which has been applied .. (whether mocked up or not.. whether a fantasy piece or not .. whether the two are married or not) .. to the wreath in a manner to assimilate a hat badge. So far as I know, we are still bound by rules that prohibit us from saying something is a fake, a fantasy, or otherwise cast doubt on such an item.

 

[GpSnoopy]

My apologies, Creskol. Looking back on what I typed, I can see how my poor wording could be misunderstood and come across as too harsh. My focus was only towards other forums that had used that one eBay link as "case closed". You posted it as only as an example, after successfully ID'ng the corps collar, and then further participating in the ongoing discussion.

And again, a poor choice of words on the modification part. Never said it was fake, or casting doubt on the item itself. Just whether it was officially manufactured or distributed in this form. It could still be a valuable relic, a custom piece made by a soldier, or presented to a medic, or created for a seetheart.

I'll finish by saying that although I don't post that often on this forum, I read it often and have nothing but respect for the vast knowledge you and all the others bring to the community.

Bye

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

So far as I know, we are still bound by rules that prohibit us from saying something is a fake, a fantasy, or otherwise cast doubt on such an item.

The What is It forum is definitely NOT bound by such rules. Its part of the identification process.




*** In case anybody has missed it, the pics are identical in every way, including shadows, so the eBay ad must be placed or viewed by celtex or someone who celtex knows. Apparently the ad was placed before the green check and later updated with Creskols information. I wish he (celtex)would participate more in helping solve this mystery. I am in no way saying celtex is guilty of anything, only that I wish he would participate in the latter part of this thread and remove the green check until we can figure this out.. ***

I came across a couple of other forums this badge was posted in, and they all used the same eBay link as proof of what it was. I just keep going in circles by finding the same "proof". Sofar, IMHO, I see a GAR type badge that was modified by adding the Spanish medics corps collar insignia. At least until I see another example or description from another source.

Its a wild circle of who came first, the chicken or the egg. You cant ID an artifact with your own eBay ad lol.

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

GpSnoopy's apology is noted, and appreciated.

Before I saw it, I'd been doing some additional deep research, on Creskol's behalf, to provide confirmatory proof that the VERY-EXACT DESIGN of cross emblem posted by Celtex is indeed a Spanish-American War era US Medical Corps emblem.

It is not a Templar Cross. Anybody here can do a google-search for "Templar Cross" and see for themselves.

Also, Celtex's cross-emblem is not a true Maltese cross ...which consists ONLY of V-shaped angles. Again, do a google-search to see for yourselves.

The outer ends of the arms on Celtex's cross-emblem are double-arced inward, resembling the valley in a Valentine heart's top. The VERY-EXACT match for Celtex's cross-emblem is found in the section on US Medical Corps insignia in the massive book "Encyclopedia of United States Army Insignia and Uniforms." The Medical Corps Insignia section starts at page 177. You can view it online, at Google Books, for free, at: http://books.google.com/books?id=tr...esnum=6&ved=0CDsQ6AEwBTgK#v=onepage&q&f=false

That distinctive cross-emblem was used by the Medical Corps ONLY from 1896 to 1902. I should mention that in its official Regulation use by the US Army Medical Corps, it was NOT surrounded by a wreath. Apparently somebody fabricated a non-Regulation version of it, by having it applied onto a commercial insignia-manufacturer's quasi-military thin stamped sheetbrass wreath.

For anybody here who is unfamiliar with "stock" insignia patterns:
The commercial manufacturer would apply whatever emblem you wanted onto the company's simple "stock" wreath. For example, there was no CSA-in-a-wreath insignia during the civil war. But in the latter 1800s, Confederate Veterans purchased fabricated CSA-in-a-stock-wreath emblems for use as hat-insignia with their United Confederate Veterans uniforms.

I should mention that the same CSA-in-a-stock-wreath emblem is still being sold today at tourist-shops near civil war battlefield parks. (I purchased a newly-made one for my "Confederate Cavalry" hat during the 1961-65 civil war Centennial.) It is definitely a "stock" wreath because you can also buy it with a "US" in the wreath, if you are a yankee-soldier fan.

Please note, I am NOT saying Celtex's US-Medical-Corps-Cross-in-a-wreath is a modernday fabrication. The two very thin short pins on the back of his wreath appear to be the 1890s type, not the World-War-2-and-later "clutch pins" seen on modern-made insignia (and stock wreaths).

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: Hat/Cap Badge? German? Age?

I went back and reread the thread but I came away even more confused lol and editted here several times. Am I missing something?
Celtex how do you explain the eBay pictures? Did you post the wrong pics by mistake? Who ended the sale?
Do you have an identical cap badge or is it the same badge that was never yours? Am I mistaken?
Why did you stop posting?

Can you explain this so we dont have to keep guessing lol?

Here is celtex pic and the eBay pic side by side. They are identical even the same shadows.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Isnt there a way of finding out what type of camera took the picture? I cant remember how to do it.

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Save the photo into your computer, then open that imagefile, then right-click on the photo, and select File, then select Properties.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

It says they are all jpegs. Maybe celtexs pics were not taken with a camera.
Maybe he simply posted the pics directly from the eBay ad or from another treasure hunting site..

If I hover the arrow over the pics in my files it will show the camera used but these just say jpeg.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

The are several ads on eBay for Spanish American War Medical Officers Collar Insignia and the original eBay ad that had been altered with the word "MAYBE" has ended. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Spanish-Ame...954?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20c187f3e2

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SPANISH-AME...=140685865954&ps=63&clkid=5942797732977824280

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Spanish-Ame...=140685865954&ps=63&clkid=5942797732977824278

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I noticed the seller is from Georgia and celtex is from Texas, so the seller apparently is not you celtex.
You must have posted the eBay pics for identification. Celtex, you could have told us.

 

[creskol]

I noticed the seller is from Georgia and celtex is from Texas, so the seller apparently is not you celtex.
You must have posted the eBay pics for identification. Celtex, you could have told us.

Maybe Texas, GA .. or Georgia, TX

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I noticed the seller is from Georgia and celtex is from Texas, so the seller apparently is not you celtex.
You must have posted the eBay pics for identification. Celtex, you could have told us.

Maybe Texas, GA .. or Georgia, TX

Dallas, Georgia http://www.ebay.com/itm/Spanish-Ame...=140685865954&ps=63&clkid=5957753111182877469

Whoever it is, has owned it for over 50 years so that alone would make me lean toward authentic even without better pics.
Its probably a piece like CBG describes and/or it may be rare..