Spanish trail monuments in the Cabollos

[Scott420]

But they still probably in some way marked by someone. They had to find it back. So I'm sure some type of marking was used.

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Treasure of Victoria Peak - Grab it through Amazon!

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

D Syn, you mentioned that the King must have had some way to insure that the mine paid off. He certainly did, Once you registered your mine you had title for a specified no of years, without this anyone could file on top of your mine and call on the military to enforce his right.

 

[Oroblanco]

Welcome to Treasurenet Scott420!

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Whisky rat, nothing beats riding a good mule on almost forgotten, unused trails, sometimes not meeting anyone for weeks at a time. As you said a ' treasure is almost incindental.' But those times are fast being eliminated. Areas where I rode alone for long periods have towns springing up., ranches being opened, or mines being developed.

Oro knows what I am saying.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Dc Syms, I also forgot to mention that the king controlled the production of the mines since he had an exclusive 'royal right, enforceable, to the materiels needed to process the ore I.E. salt, mercury, on.

Thumb rule, so much would produce so much metal, so he a sort of a crude double check.

As a result he really didn't care where, he controlled things as it existed.

 

[whiskeyrat]

MAYBE SPANISH SIGNS ARE IN THE CABALLOS
FOUND THIS ABOUT 1.5 MILES FROM WILLIES CABIN
NEAR A TURTLE ROCK POINTING TOWARD THE CABIN (UP THAT CANYON)

 

[whiskeyrat]

maybe?? did not match any of the other rocks around, its about the size of a small pickup.

 

[Rawhide]

Now that's interesting

Sent from my XT1031 using Tapatalk

 

[nmth]

Gollum or sdcfia or others will maybe beat me up for this since I can't remember the exact page at the moment, but I recall from a book about late Colonial-era Spanish Mining Law that anyone could denounce a gold, silver, etc. mine, but the Crown was the only one that could own a Mercury mine. Figures, since the retort process is so important, especially for gold purification. Also seemed like it described that you could press into service any idle person. We would wish for as much these days. I got the book off of Google Docs. It is "A Compilation of Spanish and Mexican Law, in Relation to Mines, and Titles to Real Estate, in Force in California, Texas, and New Mexico, John A. Rockwell, 1851" Vol I is 693 pages... sheesh. Lots of footnotes to explore, too. Maybe it or Vol II+ will have something on required markers, or perhaps one of the older footnote references may be useful. Some of the footnotes are in Latin!

That's correct. The King did not own the mines - he expected his share as payment from the mining contractors in exchange for granting them permission to explore, locate, equip and operate mines where they wished at their own expense. The miners were responsible for paying the Crown's percentage to the Crown's representatives in Mexico. Much of the Crown's share was estimated based on mercury purchases and credits, which was also closely controlled by the Crown in Mexico and necessary in the miners' recovery processes. The overwhelming majority of mining took place in Mexico, but there were a few - very few - operations by Spanish contractors (who owned the mines) in today's North America.

It's totally ridiculous to believe that the mining contractors would be allowed to leave the Crown's portion of the mining operation hidden somewhere in the wilderness, requiring the Crown's representatives to stage an expensive expedition of their own in order to attempt to go find their proceeds from the mine. No - the Crown's share was paid to the Crown's representative in Mexico. Any "monumented trails" were created by the mining contractors for their own use using their own methods. There is no such thing as a standard "King's Code", ala the Kenworthy books. That's treasure magazine rubbish.

 

[nmth]

......snip.....

I guess i was orginally asking if anyone on this site has actually seen those types of monuments in the caballos.
wr

There's double engine-block+ sized dolmens here and there, lots of OOP rocks say 4-basketballs in size or thereabouts (found one at an old mine we dug out - more of a prospct, really.), and then there's some Kenworthy-type stuff, including ridgeline flat-face white OOP rocks at certain angles. Of course, the stone Eyes I know about are all natural or 50/50. The non-ears (per some) rabbit ears by Lead canyon (old name just for variety) are compelling to me anyways (though how to date them?) and there are a few other tall stone things as well. In the image, I did not go down to the standing stone because a) it was WINDY (as usual) and I like life, and 2) the limestone cliffs are taller than they appear in the photo, like 6-8'+. A pair of the better Dolmens (big rock on a few little rocks sitting on bedrock with light showing) are in more or less in plain view by the E end of the Shandon placer, but there are distractions right there so maybe they are less noticed. Don't forget shrines as good trail sign and mine sign, IMHO, but not sure that has anything to do directly with the Royal/Fast/Inspector's vs. slow/workers road and associated markers theories I hear about from others.

 

[sdcfia]

Gollum or sdcfia or others will maybe beat me up for this since I can't remember the exact page at the moment, but I recall from a book about late Colonial-era Spanish Mining Law that anyone could denounce a gold, silver, etc. mine, but the Crown was the only one that could own a Mercury mine. Figures, since the retort process is so important, especially for gold purification. Also seemed like it described that you could press into service any idle person. We would wish for as much these days. I got the book off of Google Docs. It is "A Compilation of Spanish and Mexican Law, in Relation to Mines, and Titles to Real Estate, in Force in California, Texas, and New Mexico, John A. Rockwell, 1851" Vol I is 693 pages... sheesh. Lots of footnotes to explore, too. Maybe it or Vol II+ will have something on required markers, or perhaps one of the older footnote references may be useful. Some of the footnotes are in Latin!

That sounds like a good book to look at. Your point about leveraging mercury supplies defines the Crown's general control of gold mining in the new world, IMO. The mining "markers" - also IMO - were proprietary to the mine owners/operators, not the Crown. You have to be careful of the markers you find - there were many reasons for creating them in the hills and along the trails. 99.99% of them have nothing to do with "Spanish mining" in North America, IMO. Be careful with dolmans too, as they can exist as the result of rapid earth changes or slower weathering and erosion in the softer "hoo doo" formations - volcanic ash flows and some basaltic flows. If you find one in, say, the harder limestones, they're much more likely to be be man-made.

 

[Dr. Syn]

Hmm, my brain is straw but I remember posts about that , might of been in the Lost Dutchman's threads. There was talk of miners sneaking out both ore and mercury to make their own stash. Maybe from the Peralta mines or such.

 

[PROSPECTORMIKEL]

Hello Whiskeyrat.

Great subject matter and great discussion, in general...

Having never been on any of those trails, I have taken more out of the great well of knowledge than I can pay back.

However, I will try.

Most of what I was taught about trail tracking, before I came to TNET, was from one man that learned most of what he knew from his parents. He had been on some of the trails that were discussed here.

He taught me that all trails are marked with the same basic markings, but they also have their own signature markings that were still traceable from the point of departure from the sea, on to land. Based on the first documents to be filed.

He also said that it was not uncommon for the next expedition to hit the ground would pick up their trail, to see if they were using the signs correctly, and if the first party were using misleading signs, the expedition leader was to be executed, and his (1) crewmen and tools and wealth ,became his (2) crew and tools and wealth.

It seemed a bit harsh, but it also seemed to be self governing from the authority of the King.

No matter how much salt or cinnabar, the truth would catch up eventually.

My site, in the southern edge of the Ozarks has more than it’s share of signs and symbols and monuments.

Thick forests, record breaking rain, snow, and ice storms have made their marks on many of its most significant markers. Usually shortly after being documented. I have been very fortunate, to have been witness to their existence.

Some are easily recognized and others were discovered in photos.

In the first post, you asked for photos.

I have a few that might apply to your search....

,
,
,
,
,
,
,

Most of those photos were taken by my partner, Weekender, during the last three trips to our site.

I hope they help you.

#/;0{>~

 

[Holyground]

Hey Whiskeyrat,

Do you have any documented evidence that The King of Spain had any control over what monuments and markers were used? I have every Royal Cedula and Decree Regarding mining. Nowhere do they mention anything about making symbols and markers.

Mike

Wouldn't that be on a need to know basis only? I think it was a well gaurded secret?

 

[Al D]

Kenworthy claims to have found evidence of such a royal decree.

 

[gollum]

Kenworthy claims to have found evidence of such a royal decree.

Chuck claimed many things. Some I agreed with and some I didn't. One thing I do know is that he spent hundreds of thousands of dollars getting a little over a hundred documents and copies of documents from around the world.

I believe that if there were an actual "King's Book of Monuments", Dr. Eugene Lyons would have found either "it" or evidence of "it" while working in the archives for Mel Fisher.

Mike

 

[sdcfia]

Kenworthy claims to have found evidence of such a royal decree.

Don't you think that a "Royal Decree" pertaining to the required documentation methods for mining properties would be easy to validate? After all, mining in the New World was indeed officially codified, highly regulated and required to be used by mining contractors. It's how the Crown facilitated getting their share of the proceeds. In Mexico alone, there were hundreds of mines producing millions of ounces from the greatest silver deposits in the world.

Or are you talking about those many "secret Spanish caches" in the American Southwest? You know - the ones where all those shadowy mining expeditions traveled into Apacheria to mine, refine and accumulate mountains of metal bars that they left behind before returning home. Left behind, marked with arcane secret symbols, hundreds of miles into the northern wilderness. Left behind, after spending small fortunes satisfying the logistics required to pull off such an accomplishment. Left behind, available later to only those who knew the King's "secret code" - lost in history to all except Chuck Kenworthy. Funny nobody before him thought about snatching up that secret document, eh?

 

[PROSPECTORMIKEL]

I have an older map, made by a
Native American that tracked down the trails on which many different tribes were moved from their home lands, to be put work in the mines.

His work was based upon The Spanish laws that were specifically for use by the priests who were to invoke the Spanish troops to enforce the removal of the Natives from their homes to be put to work.

As far as the priests were concerned, this was “ Doing the Lord’s work” , as they were commanded to seek out the lazy or unprofitable people and “ under the claim that they should not allow their newly acquired Christians to be lazy and live on handouts, and many others excuses, to be put to work in the mines.

This was to create a ( good Christian roll of seeking and saving the lost. Which drew in many Missionaries to travel to the new world...
regulated by the Spanish Crown under the law of (enclamediose)... I am sure I will get stepped on for trying to spell that word, but without pulling that old map to find the notations, I am left to trust my old memory... The map maker was an Indian from an unnamed tribe.
I think it was deliberately left out, because he was trying to represent all
Native Americans in his work.
Back to the point. Many people of wealth donated their money to support these missionaries in the New World, believing that they were spreading Christianity, without ever knowing that they were supporting slavery! ... They did help by knowing that they were building missions as close as one days walk from one to the next!
These became the launch pad for the slave labor force.

He ( ( The Native American) wrote of many atrocities, and his personal hatred of the Spaniards of that time.

My copy is from the first or second printing, and I understand that his descendants are still printing it with his notes in place, that have been typed due to the difficulty of reading his very small writing notes.

His notes are very sternly worded,about the mistreated slaves of the Spanish mine owners.

His small notes accidentally explained why low grade mines were marked and abandoned, while creating trails left by the Native Americans, which were left for their people to help find them.

And that explains to us, why we find strange and unexplained markers along many paths and trails from one mine to another, and the information from today’s Tribesmen that we are not following Spanish trails!

And somehow we work to place these ancient markers into the so called
“Spanish Codes “.
If any of you need to know more about this map , I will pull it out of it’s tube again for the name and you can order a modern print of it.

I don’t like taking it out due to it’s fragile state.
I have not found a picture frame to fit it yet, so it stays in a tube to protect it.

I hope that this has been helpful.

#/;0{>~

 

[PROSPECTORMIKEL]

Don't you think that a "Royal Decree" pertaining to the required documentation methods for mining properties would be easy to validate? After all, mining in the New World was indeed officially codified, highly regulated and required to be used by mining contractors. It's how the Crown facilitated getting their share of the proceeds. In Mexico alone, there were hundreds of mines producing millions of ounces from the greatest silver deposits in the world.

Or are you talking about those many "secret Spanish caches" in the American Southwest? You know - the ones where all those shadowy mining expeditions traveled into Apacheria to mine, refine and accumulate mountains of metal bars that they left behind before returning home. Left behind, marked with arcane secret symbols, hundreds of miles into the northern wilderness. Left behind, after spending small fortunes satisfying the logistics required to pull off such an accomplishment. Left behind, available later to only those who knew the King's "secret code" - lost in history to all except Chuck Kenworthy. Funny nobody before him thought about snatching up that secret document, eh?

Perhaps, he didn’t like to dig...?!

#/;0{>~

 

[whiskeyrat]

I have an older map, made by a
Native American that tracked down the trails on which many different tribes were moved from their home lands, to be put work in the mines.

His work was based upon The Spanish laws that were specifically for use by the priests who were to invoke the Spanish troops to enforce the removal of the Natives from their homes to be put to work.

As far as the priests were concerned, this was “ Doing the Lord’s work” , as they were commanded to seek out the lazy or unprofitable people and “ under the claim that they should not allow their newly acquired Christians to be lazy and live on handouts, and many others excuses, to be put to work in the mines.

This was to create a ( good Christian roll of seeking and saving the lost. Which drew in many Missionaries to travel to the new world...
regulated by the Spanish Crown under the law of (enclamediose)... I am sure I will get stepped on for trying to spell that word, but without pulling that old map to find the notations, I am left to trust my old memory... The map maker was an Indian from an unnamed tribe.
I think it was deliberately left out, because he was trying to represent all
Native Americans in his work.
Back to the point. Many people of wealth donated their money to support these missionaries in the New World, believing that they were spreading Christianity, without ever knowing that they were supporting slavery! ... They did help by knowing that they were building missions as close as one days walk from one to the next!
These became the launch pad for the slave labor force.

He ( ( The Native American) wrote of many atrocities, and his personal hatred of the Spaniards of that time.

My copy is from the first or second printing, and I understand that his descendants are still printing it with his notes in place, that have been typed due to the difficulty of reading his very small writing notes.

His notes are very sternly worded,about the mistreated slaves of the Spanish mine owners.

His small notes accidentally explained why low grade mines were marked and abandoned, while creating trails left by the Native Americans, which were left for their people to help find them.

And that explains to us, why we find strange and unexplained markers along many paths and trails from one mine to another, and the information from today’s Tribesmen that we are not following Spanish trails!

And somehow we work to place these ancient markers into the so called
“Spanish Codes “.
If any of you need to know more about this map , I will pull it out of it’s tube again for the name and you can order a modern print of it.

I don’t like taking it out due to it’s fragile state.
I have not found a picture frame to fit it yet, so it stays in a tube to protect it.

I hope that this has been helpful.

#/;0{>~

Thanks PM:
I would love to get a copy of this map.
Thanks in advance for any assistance in getting a copy.
wr