Superstition People, Places, & Things.

[Weaversneedle]

Luck has little to do with it.
Here is exactly what can be found.
BIRTHS that occurred at least 75 years ago
DEATHS that occurred at least 50 years ago

50 years ago? What good is that going to do?

 

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[cactusjumper]

If anyone is still interested in Mr. Bilbrey's location or history, I would suggest asking about him at the Rendezvous. He has often come up in conversations there.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal,

I do not "choose to ignore" any of the facts concerning Mr. Bilbrey. To put it as simply as I can, I find other evidence about the man more compelling. Others are welcome to consider his story however they wish.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

I have read up on the things that concern you and I guess am less bothered by them.
So, explain when, where, and how Bilbery had access to the stone maps.

Before September of 1978.

 

[Weaversneedle]

If anyone is still interested in Mr. Bilbrey's location or history, I would suggest asking about him at the Rendezvous. He has often come up in conversations there.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

CJ, these guys won't show up at the rendezvous, they would rather argue and speculate on a forum than go talk to someone in person that could give them the straight story

 

[cactusjumper]

I have read up on the things that concern you and I guess am less bothered by them.
So, explain when, where, and how Bilbery had access to the stone maps.

Before September of 1978.

Hal,

I have no idea "when, where, and how Bilbery had access to the stone maps." Many people in A.J. had access to the Stone Maps, much earlier than the public exposure. My Uncle, and I assume all of his friends and partner's, knew what was under the elec. tape portions of the stones before it was made public. I have a recording of Bilbrey, made by Estee Conatser which Jim Hatt and I once discussed.....shortly:
_______________________________
Jim,

Actually, I have no list of names. As I recall, he tried to sell them to Greg Davis and Clay Worst, but my memory ain't so good anymore. It may have been Bob Corbin, but they were convinced that the crosses were fake.

In his own words, Michael told Estee Conatser that the crosses were for sale to anyone who had the cash.

In 1978, while Bilbrey was trying to get Estee to become a partner with himself and Ed Farr, she asked him to get the crosses authenticated. She mentioned that more than once. Each time, Bilbrey refused. She explained that it would be much easier to find someone with the funds, if the crosses were authenticated. He was not interested in that, and just wanted to sell them outright.

Sounds like a con to me. No need to muddy the waters with an expert opinion on the authenticity of the artifacts. Basically, you bring the cash, you carry the crosses out the door. End of sale.

"You assume that since you are not aware of the crosses ever having been examined by any experts, that it never happened. When in fact the opposite is true. Estee Conatser had the crosses in her possession for a time, during which she had them examined at a University in calif. UCLA if I remember correctly. (You can confirm that with Greg Davis, he is the one that told me about it) I am sure that if they had been made of concrete, someone there would have noticed."

As soon as someone, anyone, can produce that report from UCLA, I will have a different view. I would not take Conatser's word that she had the crosses examined at UCLA. As I said, in 1978 Bilbrey refused, a number of times, to have that done.

My guess is that the UCLA story was never confirmed. We have the same story for the Stone Maps...........No document, ever.

Some of what I have written here is my personal opinion. The Bilbrey/Conatser information is fact.
__________________________________________

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal,

I have no idea "when, where, and how Bilbery had access to the stone maps." Many people in A.J. had access to the Stone Maps, much earlier than the public exposure. My Uncle, and I assume all of his friends and partner's, knew what was under the elec. tape portions of the stones before it was made public. I have a recording of Bilbrey, made by Estee Conatser which Jim Hatt and I once discussed.....shortly:
_______________________________
Jim,

Actually, I have no list of names. As I recall, he tried to sell them to Greg Davis and Clay Worst, but my memory ain't so good anymore. It may have been Bob Corbin, but they were convinced that the crosses were fake.

In his own words, Michael told Estee Conatser that the crosses were for sale to anyone who had the cash.

In 1978, while Bilbrey was trying to get Estee to become a partner with himself and Ed Farr, she asked him to get the crosses authenticated. She mentioned that more than once. Each time, Bilbrey refused. She explained that it would be much easier to find someone with the funds, if the crosses were authenticated. He was not interested in that, and just wanted to sell them outright.

Sounds like a con to me. No need to muddy the waters with an expert opinion on the authenticity of the artifacts. Basically, you bring the cash, you carry the crosses out the door. End of sale.

"You assume that since you are not aware of the crosses ever having been examined by any experts, that it never happened. When in fact the opposite is true. Estee Conatser had the crosses in her possession for a time, during which she had them examined at a University in calif. UCLA if I remember correctly. (You can confirm that with Greg Davis, he is the one that told me about it) I am sure that if they had been made of concrete, someone there would have noticed."

As soon as someone, anyone, can produce that report from UCLA, I will have a different view. I would not take Conatser's word that she had the crosses examined at UCLA. As I said, in 1978 Bilbrey refused, a number of times, to have that done.

My guess is that the UCLA story was never confirmed. We have the same story for the Stone Maps...........No document, ever.

Some of what I have written here is my personal opinion. The Bilbrey/Conatser information is fact.
__________________________________________

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

Prove, without question, that Travis carved the stone maps and the crosses, the Latin heart, and the stones themselves are all essentially worthless, overnight.
Not sure that anyone can do that.

 

[cactusjumper]

One other thing, I'm quite sure that the moderators here will not ban me for having an opinion that differs from there's on the facts of a story.

Discussions about Michael Bilbrey can be found in many different places on the Internet. Some researchers have the court documents from his case. What you can find may be more than you expect.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

Hal,

I believe this picture shows that those "artifacts" could be created by, just about, anyone:



I may have the actual heart shown in the above photo.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[Hal Croves]

One other thing, I'm quite sure that the moderators here will not ban me for having an opinion that differs from there's on the facts of a story.

Discussions about Michael Bilbrey can be found in many different places on the Internet. Some researchers have the court documents from his case. What you can find may be more than you expect.

Joe Ribaudo

I would love to see an encyclopedia Superstition published by the museum.

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal,

I believe this picture shows that those "artifacts" could be created by, just about, anyone:



I may have the actual heart shown in the above photo.

Good luck,

Joe

Would you mind explaining exactly what it is that we are looking at?
Seems like a good time for clarity where possible.

Thanks Joe.

 

[cactusjumper]

Hal,

Two stone crosses and the Latin Heart, all for sale at one time.

I didn't think they needed explanation.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[deducer]

Hal,

Two stone crosses and the Latin Heart, all for sale at one time.

I didn't think they needed explanation.

Good luck,

Joe

Joe, did you mean to say the reproduction of the LH was for sale at one time? Or the real LH itself?

 

[cactusjumper]

deducer,

As I understand it, the Latin Heart was destroyed with a ball peen hammer. Everything In the picture is reproduction, as far as I know.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[Hal Croves]

Joe, did you mean to say the reproduction of the LH was for sale at one time? Or the real LH itself?

Exactly, are they cast copies or originals?
Not an unreasonable question considering the slight of hand being suggested.

 

[Hal Croves]

deducer,

As I understand it, the Latin Heart was destroyed with a ball peen hammer. Everything In the picture is reproduction, as far as I know.

Good luck,

Joe

Not sure if I understand your point. Selling reproductions as reproductions seems harmless enough. Are you saying that they were represented as being originals?

Sorry to be so dense.

 

[deducer]

deducer,

As I understand it, the Latin Heart was destroyed with a ball peen hammer. Everything In the picture is reproduction, as far as I know.

Good luck,

Joe

Yes, the original LH was destroyed in a fit of anger by the man who discovered it. It was reportedly made from a substance similar to Basalt. However before it was destroyed, copies were made of it, one of which made Bob Ward's "Ripples of Lost Echoes," one copy went to Al Reser, and another went to a friend of Kollenborn's in Texas. It was Kollenborn's friend who provided the illustration, via Kollenborn, to Jim Hatt who made reproductions. And as far as I'm aware, Hatt did not attempt to sell any of his reproductions (and he certainly didn't need the money).

It is also hard to envision the man who destroyed the LH had at one time tried offering it for sale. Don't think he would have destroyed it if he intended to profit by it?

 

[deducer]

Exactly, are they cast copies or originals?
Not an unreasonable question considering the slight of hand being suggested.

Neither cast or originals. All reproduced via photos and drawings.

 

[cactusjumper]

Exactly, are they cast copies or originals?
Not an unreasonable question considering the slight of hand being suggested.

Hal,

Having never seen the originals, I believe the picture is of copies. From what I heard on the tape of Bilbrey, I would say he was trying to sell the original crosses. Not sure the Latin Heart was part of that offer. Haven't listened to the tape in quite awhile. The "artifacts" in the picture belonged to Jim Hatt.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

Hal,

I believe this picture shows that those "artifacts" could be created by, just about, anyone:



I may have the actual heart shown in the above photo.

Good luck,

Joe

Hal,

Have to agree with you about the "dense" thingie. I believe my posts have been plain talk that anyone should be able to follow. Never claimed any of the things in the picture were authentic artifacts. You seem to have a burr under your saddle today.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal,

Have to agree with you about the "dense" thingie. I believe my posts have been plain talk that anyone should be able to follow. Never claimed any of the things in the picture were authentic artifacts. You seem to have a burr under your saddle today.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

Just appreciate clarity these days.
Lots of ideas floating around and its easy to confuse things.

I will try again. Were the crosses in the photograph being sold and represented as originals, a cast of an original (one of several), or a reproduction of an original perhaps based on an image?

You used the photograph to demonstrate a point but that point is not clear.
A little context is all.