Superstition People, Places, & Things.

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These are the original crosses

Original%20Crosses.webp

The big cross that was carved on the mountain above the stone crosses and had orientation NE , his orientation shows how it is placed in the fields and how should be read . Of course this image is not there but not far off the carved cross . If Bilbrey knew to read symbols , for sure he could found the location .
Now a GE image of the cross in the fields ( 95% accurate ) . The heart on the stone cross shows how is orientated the cross in relation with the heart ( the heart points to south ) . The red dot is where the stone trail ends . Compare with the stone cross map to see the similarities .

cross 2.webp cross.webp
 

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Just appreciate clarity these days.
Lots of ideas floating around and its easy to confuse things.

I will try again. Were the crosses in the photograph being sold and represented as originals, a cast of an original (one of several), or a reproduction of an original perhaps based on an image?

You used the photograph to demonstrate a point but that point is not clear.
A little context is all.

Hal,

Just to be clear......I believe most people who knew Jim were aware that the "artifacts" he possessed were ones that he made, personally. I don't believe he ever presented them as originals. So far, YOU are the only person who has made the statement of that being a possibility. I have never thought that, nor made such a statement. Is that clear enough?

Joe Ribaudo
 

Joe, I'm more than a little dense myself but, ...what?

"I may have the actual heart shown in the above photo".

and then;

"Never claimed any of the things in the picture were authentic artifacts."

:BangHead::dontknow:
 

Joe, I'm more than a little dense myself but, ...what?

"I may have the actual heart shown in the above photo".

and then;

"Never claimed any of the things in the picture were authentic artifacts."

:BangHead::dontknow:

Earnie,

You won't get any argument from me.

The heart I have is a reproduction of the original. It was made by Jim Hatt. I have posted pictures of it before and mentioned it was one he made. I have stated that the picture is of copies. I said I MAY have the heart that is shown in the picture. Like that heart, it's a copy, not the original.

I am the one who has had the brain operation, yet you guys can't seem to follow simple English.

This will be my last explanation. Ask a friend to explain this conversation.

Joe Ribaudo
 

I'm willing to do the translation/explanation . :tongue3:
 

Earnie,

You won't get any argument from me.

The heart I have is a reproduction of the original. It was made by Jim Hatt. I have posted pictures of it before and mentioned it was one he made. I have stated that the picture is of copies. I said I MAY have the heart that is shown in the picture. Like that heart, it's a copy, not the original.

I am the one who has had the brain operation, yet you guys can't seem to follow simple English.

This will be my last explanation. Ask a friend to explain this conversation.

Joe Ribaudo

I think that I get it now.
Thanks Joe.
 

OK Joe, got it.
Your sentence was structured in a manner which could be read in two different ways.
You wrote one, I read the other.
I mean you no harm earthling, just looking for clarification.

Joe, do you need a spittoon, that tobacco juice is going everywhere today.
 

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Earnie,

You won't get any argument from me.

The heart I have is a reproduction of the original. It was made by Jim Hatt. I have posted pictures of it before and mentioned it was one he made. I have stated that the picture is of copies. I said I MAY have the heart that is shown in the picture. Like that heart, it's a copy, not the original.

I am the one who has had the brain operation, yet you guys can't seem to follow simple English.

This will be my last explanation. Ask a friend to explain this conversation.

Joe Ribaudo

The road didn't look that long at first, but we/well... some , got there.8-)
 

The road didn't look that long at first, but we/well... some , got there.8-)

The two darker crosses in the photo Marius posted are also reproductions, either made by the person who took the photo OR Bilbrey himself.
The originals are slightly different, both darker and rougher in appearance. All of the "stones" in the "Latin Heart + 2 Crosses" photo are of Jim Hatt's own set of replicas.
Jim fashioned the original mold by hand from tin foil, using the scaled photos he had ( likely Bilbrey's ) or the same photo as the one that Marius posted. From the first set made using the tin foil molds, he then made a set of latex molds, from which he cast a few more sets of plaster cross replicas. All of those he gave away or sold for a nominal price to a few people who wanted them. I believe he made his copies of the LH, using the same procedure. While visiting Jim at his home, and talking about all of this, I showed Jim some photos that I had taken earlier that day while out in the mountains, which I felt represented some of what was on both the H/P stone and the map cross. Jim got a bit agitated , first asking me "how the H--- I had found those things, and then telling me to never put them online. He then pulled Conatser's book off his shelf, opened it and showed me a couple of paragraphs and a map. Then later, and just as I was about to leave, he took down the two crosses which hung on the wall above his computer, and insisted I take them as well as the book. I offered to pay for them, but he refused to take anything, even though he said they were the last ones he had. Turned out it wouldn't be the last time he was so generous.

View attachment DSCF1213 crosses.bmp

Later, during another visit, after we had discussed the Latin Heart on DUSA, he showed me a similarly scaled color photo of a black heart on a piece of what looked like a brown rubber floor mat from a car or truck. Although I could see the carvings, I couldn't read them and Jim wouldn't enlarge the photo for me at the time. He also showed me a second black and white photo of a man on one knee who was holding the heart in his hands and facing the camera. Similar to the one of Travis and his partner. It was shot in a flat area with a small rocky hill in the background but I can't say whether it was taken at QC or somewhere else.
The man was wearing a light colored cowboy hat, a light colored jacket and wire framed glasses, as I recall.
Jim didn't say who he was, and I didn't think to ask at the time. But later, he did give us the tape that he had made of his talk with the friend of the finder.

I MAY have those photos on a CD or DVD somewhere.

From what we know about Bilbrey and his friends and partners searches in the TM area, I suspect that if Bilbrey DID find the crosses as he said, that he believed that location to be at or very close to what they applied to. The later article, which was about his claim(s) AND the stone crosses, said that he had found SOME gold at his dig, and based on that, the FS was willing to allow him to continue his mining activity there.
 

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He also showed me a second black and white photo of a man on one knee who was holding the heart in his hands and facing the camera. Similar to the one of Travis and his partner. It was shot in a flat area with a small rocky hill in the background but I can't say whether it was taken at QC or somewhere else. The man was wearing a light colored cowboy hat, a light colored jacket and wire framed glasses, as I recall.

Bet you that feller was either Jacob Alexander or Bill Hidden. Hidden of course was the man who lost it and destroyed the LH but not before Al got a picture of it.
 

Bet you that feller was either Jacob Alexander or Bill Hidden. Hidden of course was the man who lost it and destroyed the LH but not before Al got a picture of it.

Pretty close to the way I see it.:thumbsup:
But I wonder if it was actually "destroyed".
Saying so doesn't always make it true. Especially if the motive happens to be self preservation and/or some peace and quiet.
It could have been handed off to a trusted and loyal friend for safekeeping.
 

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Gimme your heart, make it real. Or else forget about it :D




Earnie,

You won't get any argument from me.

The heart I have is a reproduction of the original. It was made by Jim Hatt. I have posted pictures of it before and mentioned it was one he made. I have stated that the picture is of copies. I said I MAY have the heart that is shown in the picture. Like that heart, it's a copy, not the original.

I am the one who has had the brain operation, yet you guys can't seem to follow simple English.

This will be my last explanation. Ask a friend to explain this conversation.

Joe Ribaudo
 

View attachment 1290699

Photograph of a Map of Mormon Settlements in Southeastern Arizona Circa: 1880 (1880 -1889)
History and Archives Division, Arizona State Library, Archives and Public Records

From this map it could be assumed that Mormon settlers did attempt or actually had some presence at Mormon Flat prior to the death of Waltz and he was seen in the area at least twice according to Glover's book. Is there any mention of Mormon Flat in any of the clues to the DLM?
 

Other than the name, there's no mark (black square) indicating a Mormon settlement there.
They may have had a prospecting/mining camp, or ran a few head of cattle seasonally out of MF though.
Tom K. has been working on a book about the names and places of the area, so he might know how and when the name came to be used.
 

Old news to you locals but there is a picture of the bridge and Mormon Flat Dam online if interested;

"Historic Mormon Flat Bridge built in 1924 and located on Highway 88 over Willow Creek, 3.8 miles west of Tortilla Flat. The bridge was listed in the National Register of Historic Places in September 30, 1988"

"Mormon Flat Dam is named after nearby Mormon Flat, a place where pioneers from Utah stopped to camp en route to the Valley.

From APACHE TRAIL written by Richard Powers

"By early December 1904, a stagecoach line carrying both mail and travelers made the trip between Mesa & Roosevelt in one day using three changes of horses, according to the Arizona Republican on December 4th, 1904."
"Stations were developed along the route to support the stage operation and to allow travelers a place to rest. The Bowen and Grover stage line constructed a roadhouse at MORMON FLAT, and other stations were developed at Desert Wells, Goldfield, Weeks Ranch a mile east of Goldfield, Government Well, Mormon Flat, Tortilla Flat, Fish Creek, and Davis Wash reported the Arizona Republican in April and May 1904."
 

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Could the Mormons have made and put those crosses there is that what you're getting at Hal?
The whole Mormon religion is heaped in mysterious type of Treasure Hunting and old masonic symbols.

What we're seeing is a lot of copy cat stone objects following Travis's hoax. Everyone wanted to get into the act. All these objects were faked and it's looking as though many people helped in extending the false narrative thus pulling the legs of many a man. I wonder why there's been no recent discoveries of stone objects in the Superstition's it seems to be the fairy tale that most gullible Dutch Hunters like to follow?

The problem with Arizona's history is we don't have that much discernible evidence of Spanish involvement north of the Gila or south of the Salt.
With all the Indian settlements along the San Pedro that Kino and his sidekick Manje used as protection from the Apaches to the east Kino's maps don't show anything in the Superstiton's. The Archeologist's all agree on this one that there is no evidence of Spanish Mining or influence in that region so the stone objects or maps didn't qualify as such by Archeologist's evidently. With no absolute verification by even one Archeologist of the authenticity of any of the stone or cast metal objects in the range it cast serious doubt's on any of them being old or ancient. The only types of verifications we do have are by people with vested interest's in keeping a legend alive either for tourism or personal Exemplification.
 

Old news to you locals but there is a picture of the bridge and Mormon Flat Dam online if interested;

"Historic Mormon Flat Bridge built in 1924 and located on Highway 88 over Willow Creek, 3.8 miles west of Tortilla Flat. The bridge was listed in the National Register of Historic Places in September 30, 1988"
EarnieP
If a group of Mormon settlers were massacred there, I just think there should be some type of marker to remember them by. That's a BIG if but I personally feel it worth the effort and expense to research the idea. Perhaps the LDS has already looked into it and found nothing. I have looked but could find no specific mention of it in local papers. I did find something interesting regarding a massacre and an attempt to drive out the Mexican population from the Territory.

The date is early, 1859, May.
 

Could the Mormons have made and put those crosses there is that what you're getting at Hal?
The whole Mormon religion is heaped in mysterious type of Treasure Hunting and old masonic symbols.

What we're seeing is a lot of copy cat stone objects following Travis's hoax. Everyone wanted to get into the act. All these objects were faked and it's looking as though many people helped in extending the false narrative thus pulling the legs of many a man. I wonder why there's been no recent discoveries of stone objects in the Superstition's it seems to be the fairy tale that most gullible Dutch Hunters like to follow?

The problem with Arizona's history is we don't have that much discernible evidence of Spanish involvement north of the Gila or south of the Salt.
With all the Indian settlements along the San Pedro that Kino and his sidekick Manje used as protection from the Apaches to the east Kino's maps don't show anything in the Superstiton's. The Archeologist's all agree on this one that there is no evidence of Spanish Mining or influence in that region so the stone objects or maps didn't qualify as such by Archeologist's evidently. With no absolute verification by even one Archeologist of the authenticity of any of the stone or cast metal objects in the range it cast serious doubt's on any of them being old or ancient. The only types of verifications we do have are by people with vested interest's in keeping a legend alive either for tourism or personal Exemplification.

Bill,
I will write this. There is absolute 100% physical proof that someone was mining or processing/storing materials in that general area. This is a fact now regardless of what anyone believes. The question is who. Spanish, Mexican, Mormons, or someone else? The amazing thing is that they seem to have marked their sites with symbols. You and I would describe these as treasure symbols.

I am not asking anyone to believe it but the area will eventually prove to be archeologically significant.
 

...
"I am not asking anyone to believe it but the area will eventually prove to be archeologically significant."

I think most here, even us new-comers, realize whenever Hal's inclined to believe something true, the rest of us take it serious.

Enjoy your research.:icon_thumleft:
 

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One thing for sure, if you see a symbol that looks like this
CLASSIC-KIT-Liebig_300_tcm18-160690.jpg
you might as well forget about that place.

It means the alchemists have been there and noting of value remains :D
 

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