sdcfia
Silver Member
Ha, Ha. In the very next paragraph, we're assured that taking Hood's Sarsaparilla will make you strong and healthy. Don't bet the farm on newspaper adventure stories. Like today's news, there's always a spin.
Superstition People, Places, & Things.
- Thread starter Hal Croves
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Ha, Ha. In the very next paragraph, we're assured that taking Hood's Sarsaparilla will make you strong and healthy. Don't bet the farm on newspaper adventure stories. Like today's news, there's always a spin.
I found this video of a man hiking in the mountains for 7 days / 92 miles. When I went in my 1st time I had no idea what it would be like. Maybe this will help future hikers. https://youtu.be/po72JwicB4E
Old
Hero Member
So we come full circle.
What do we learn from Jim Bark? From this letter we can glean his thoughts, right or wrong.
Many will go through tortured logic and contortions to hold to long held beliefs. Such is the nature of things of this sort. But; I believe, an unbiased reading points only in one direction. Was Bark right or wrong
I don’t know. All I know is he was a man on the scene at the time and had a first hand look at the evidence and the players.
He discounted entirely that Dick Holmes was with Jacob Waltz when he died. We learn Bark had a low opinion of George Holmes’ reputation and considered him less than trustworthy. Bark tells us that was also the consensus opinion of the entire town. We learn that Bark was of the opinion Gideon Roberts liberated (for lack of a better word) the candlebox from under Waltz’ bed, not at the moment of death, but by burglary the following day during Waltz funeral.
From the totality of this we can, I believe, draw an opinion that Bark would have discounted entirely any later renditions of Waltz gifting the candlebox to Dick Holmes, and would have made highly suspect any clues supposedly passed from Waltz to Holmes. If any part of these opinions held by Bark are true, the premise of the Holmes Manuscript that the clues were passed directly from Waltz to Holmes fails. Were they passed to Roberts? And from Roberts to Holmes? We don’t know, but if so, that adds another layer between Waltz and any clues.
To a lesser degree we also learn all the ore from the candlebox may not be a rich as we have been lead to believe. If Bark is correct that he “feels certain” he saw Holmes and Roberts pounding that same ore from the candlebox in a mortar (at some time subsequent to the funeral). We can make a reasonable conclusion that, at least some of the ore from the candlebox was not of the type and richness of that from which the matchbox was made. As Frank tells us, Herman confirmed that was Rhiney’s statement as well.
The upshot of all of this is that the matchbox ore may not be typical of what was under Waltz bed, but a one off rarity. In fact, it puts some reasonable doubt in play that the origin of the matchbox ore stems from the Waltz death bed cache. Hal, by associations among the participants and the holders of the matchbox, has added another layer of doubt of that assertion.
To me, what it means is everything we thought we knew is built on a very weak foundation.
What do we learn from Jim Bark? From this letter we can glean his thoughts, right or wrong.
Many will go through tortured logic and contortions to hold to long held beliefs. Such is the nature of things of this sort. But; I believe, an unbiased reading points only in one direction. Was Bark right or wrong
I don’t know. All I know is he was a man on the scene at the time and had a first hand look at the evidence and the players. He discounted entirely that Dick Holmes was with Jacob Waltz when he died. We learn Bark had a low opinion of George Holmes’ reputation and considered him less than trustworthy. Bark tells us that was also the consensus opinion of the entire town. We learn that Bark was of the opinion Gideon Roberts liberated (for lack of a better word) the candlebox from under Waltz’ bed, not at the moment of death, but by burglary the following day during Waltz funeral.
From the totality of this we can, I believe, draw an opinion that Bark would have discounted entirely any later renditions of Waltz gifting the candlebox to Dick Holmes, and would have made highly suspect any clues supposedly passed from Waltz to Holmes. If any part of these opinions held by Bark are true, the premise of the Holmes Manuscript that the clues were passed directly from Waltz to Holmes fails. Were they passed to Roberts? And from Roberts to Holmes? We don’t know, but if so, that adds another layer between Waltz and any clues.
To a lesser degree we also learn all the ore from the candlebox may not be a rich as we have been lead to believe. If Bark is correct that he “feels certain” he saw Holmes and Roberts pounding that same ore from the candlebox in a mortar (at some time subsequent to the funeral). We can make a reasonable conclusion that, at least some of the ore from the candlebox was not of the type and richness of that from which the matchbox was made. As Frank tells us, Herman confirmed that was Rhiney’s statement as well.
The upshot of all of this is that the matchbox ore may not be typical of what was under Waltz bed, but a one off rarity. In fact, it puts some reasonable doubt in play that the origin of the matchbox ore stems from the Waltz death bed cache. Hal, by associations among the participants and the holders of the matchbox, has added another layer of doubt of that assertion.
To me, what it means is everything we thought we knew is built on a very weak foundation.
markmar
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Lynda
Also , Bark wrote how he felt certain that Holmes helped Roberts to pound ore , but he didn't write what was the source of his statement that Holmes jr. was not at the Old Jake's death . He has read the same newspaper like Hal ?
And , the following of the words in the Bark's letter show how he felt not certain that Holmes was not at the Waltz death but felt certain for the next statement . So , he felt cartain only for what he saw and not for the other .
When somebody make a statement and after follow the words " but i feel certain " for another statement , this shows how was not sure for the first statement .
Also , Bark wrote how he felt certain that Holmes helped Roberts to pound ore , but he didn't write what was the source of his statement that Holmes jr. was not at the Old Jake's death . He has read the same newspaper like Hal ?
And , the following of the words in the Bark's letter show how he felt not certain that Holmes was not at the Waltz death but felt certain for the next statement . So , he felt cartain only for what he saw and not for the other .
When somebody make a statement and after follow the words " but i feel certain " for another statement , this shows how was not sure for the first statement .
true...i dont believe much that i read in the newspapers or see on the news..as far as what jim bark wrote about brownie..who knows if its the truth..maybe he had a beef with brownie ..i do know that clay worst and brownie were friends up until brownie died and clay thought alot of brownie and never had a bad word to say about him...none of us ever met jim bark so nobody can vouch for his character ..but i do know clay and i can vouch for him.....so would anybody that knows him..brownie never found the ldm because he didnt have the right clues....i dont think you'll find the truth in old newspaper articles or books...most writers are too prone to exaggerate...the only people that had the correct clues are the petrash's and julia......and the irony is that they are the ones most responsible for all the bogus clues and maps out there
coazon de oro
Bronze Member
So we come full circle.
What do we learn from Jim Bark? From this letter we can glean his thoughts, right or wrong.
Many will go through tortured logic and contortions to hold to long held beliefs. Such is the nature of things of this sort. But; I believe, an unbiased reading points only in one direction. Was Bark right or wrong
He discounted entirely that Dick Holmes was with Jacob Waltz when he died. We learn Bark had a low opinion of George Holmes’ reputation and considered him less than trustworthy. Bark tells us that was also the consensus opinion of the entire town. We learn that Bark was of the opinion Gideon Roberts liberated (for lack of a better word) the candlebox from under Waltz’ bed, not at the moment of death, but by burglary the following day during Waltz funeral.
From the totality of this we can, I believe, draw an opinion that Bark would have discounted entirely any later renditions of Waltz gifting the candlebox to Dick Holmes, and would have made highly suspect any clues supposedly passed from Waltz to Holmes. If any part of these opinions held by Bark are true, the premise of the Holmes Manuscript that the clues were passed directly from Waltz to Holmes fails. Were they passed to Roberts? And from Roberts to Holmes? We don’t know, but if so, that adds another layer between Waltz and any clues.
To a lesser degree we also learn all the ore from the candlebox may not be a rich as we have been lead to believe. If Bark is correct that he “feels certain” he saw Holmes and Roberts pounding that same ore from the candlebox in a mortar (at some time subsequent to the funeral). We can make a reasonable conclusion that, at least some of the ore from the candlebox was not of the type and richness of that from which the matchbox was made. As Frank tells us, Herman confirmed that was Rhiney’s statement as well.
The upshot of all of this is that the matchbox ore may not be typical of what was under Waltz bed, but a one off rarity. In fact, it puts some reasonable doubt in play that the origin of the matchbox ore stems from the Waltz death bed cache. Hal, by associations among the participants and the holders of the matchbox, has added another layer of doubt of that assertion.
To me, what it means is everything we thought we knew is built on a very weak foundation.
Howdy Lynda,
J.B. was just another LDM hunter that has his mind set by one side of the story. I really don't believe much of what he had to say. In my opinion he did get a lot of real clues from that side along with made up stories.
His words already have you doubting the richness of the ore, and you have concluded that not all of it could be jewelry type ore. Look at the facts out there, and you will find that your conclusions are wrong.
Remember that Mr. Bob Corbin, along with Mr. Tom k. signed sworn affidavits confirming the value of the gold ore purchased by Aaron Goldman from Dick Holmes. Both Mr. B.C., and Mr. T.K. saw the assay report done by Joe Porterie setting the value at $110,000/ton when gold was $20.64/oz. They also saw the shipping papers of some ore that got sent to a jewelry co. in San Francisco with a request to make a matchbox, ring, tiepin, and cuff links from that ore. They also saw the shipping papers of the jewelry being sent back.
All that from just 48 pounds of gold ore from a candle box. You could not stuff close to 699 oz. of gold in quartz into a candle box unless it was all jewelry type. These facts paint a better picture of how rich that ore was.
Can't really learn much from Jim Bark can we?
Homar
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Hello Homar,
Yeap, its a puzzle. I still believe the foundation is weak. Even Brownie Holmes affidavit says only one piece of the saved ore pieces were assayed by Porterie. If true that's only one chuck out of the collection.
As to BC and TK's affidavits. I have no doubt they did see copies of the assay report and shipping papers. They also saw ship manifest and transmitting drafts. I doubt they would give similar affidavits today. A lot of water has run under the bridge since 1990............Just saying.......
Yeap, its a puzzle. I still believe the foundation is weak. Even Brownie Holmes affidavit says only one piece of the saved ore pieces were assayed by Porterie. If true that's only one chuck out of the collection.
As to BC and TK's affidavits. I have no doubt they did see copies of the assay report and shipping papers. They also saw ship manifest and transmitting drafts. I doubt they would give similar affidavits today. A lot of water has run under the bridge since 1990............Just saying.......
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sdcfia
Silver Member
First the math. 110,000 $/ton/20.67 $/tr oz = 5,322 tr oz/ton. 48 lb/2,000 lb/ton = 0.024 ton. (0.024 ton)(5,322 tr oz/ton) = 128 tr oz gold, not 699 tr oz. At (20.67 $/tr oz) = $2,640.
The assay. Joe Porterie's supposed assay could have been either a fair representative sample of all the alleged candlebox ore, a test of only the jewelry samples, or an assay based on some other criteria. Knowing this might help clearly define the ore's character and also help establish the weight of the candlebox. If Messrs B.C and T.K. saw the alleged assay, why didn't they obtain a copy of the report to support their statements? If they did, why haven't they disclosed it? If they did not, why not?
The sale. Holmes transcript states Dick Holmes sold gold to Goldmans for $4,600 (this would be more than 220 tr oz).. There is no record of this sale. It might also be informative to see copies of the "shipping papers" for the jewelry ore - the ones B.C and T.K. claimed to have seen. If such documents exist, again, why no copies? These documents may have descriptions of the ore and its source - descriptions that might support or deny the alleged Waltz link.
coazon de oro
Bronze Member
Howdy sdcfia,
Thanks for catching that, but I got it from the affidavits that it was 48 pounds of ore sold for $4,800 at 20.64/oz.
$4,800 divided by $20.64 rounds off to 233 troy oz. or 16 pounds of gold. What I was doing is multiplying 16 times 3 since they claim the ore was one third gold, that would make the 48 pounds of ore in the candle box, or 699 oz of gold in quartz ore. I know gold is about 8 times heavier than quartz, so I don't really see the ore being anything other than jewelry quality gold ore.
Homar
cactusjumper
Gold Member
Lynda,
Neither Tom nor Bob attested to the authenticity of the documents, only to the fact that they were shown those documents. It would be best for anyone making the argument that they vouched for their authenticity, to talk to them personally. I believe you will come away with a slightly different conclusion. I have talked to both of them about this subject.
Further, you might want to reread pages 274 & 275 of Dr. Glover's "The Lost Dutchman Mine Of Jacob Waltz: Part 1: The Golden Dream". Neither man, I believe, will swear the items discussed/seen were from the LDM.
Take care,
Joe
Old
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sdcfia
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Thanks for the insight. This being the case, I guess we can relegate the "Waltz rich matchbox ore" allegations to the rather large scrap heap of LDM unsubstantiated hearsay.
Now a question about the entire "Waltz candle box" scenario itself. How was it that the candle box survived the big flood that allegedly destroyed Waltz's home and property - sending him up a tree in order to survive it himself - then ended up under his death bed at the site of his passing?
audigger53
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If the candle Box had that much weight in it, the flood would not have moved it. The house was supposed to be Abode walls. That the flood would have undermined and washed away. The other question is when did the candle box get moved to Julia's house where she took care of him?
hal..are you sure it is george "brownie" holmes they are talking about?...usually when someone makes the newspapers they make sure and publish any alias's he goes by....does anyone know when george took on the nickname brownie?...have you checked to see if there were any other george holmes in arizona at the time?
sdcfia
Silver Member
I see your point, but it's purely speculative. None of us were there, of course, so our opinions are all speculative. I do seem to remember witnesses claim that Waltz's house was totally destroyed and the landscape was changed (erosion, mud deposits, debris from upstream, etc.). This is typical flood damage.
Having many times observed the aftermath of Southwestern flash floods and marveled at the force of running water, one could also speculate that, once Waltz's adobe walls were destroyed, anything inside the structure might have easily disappeared downstream. It's been alleged that the candle box held a hundred pounds of ore, more or less. The wooden box itself might have easily been battered into pieces by the force of the flood and the debris it carried - liberating the smaller rocks inside. Even if the box remained intact, a hundred pounds is certainly no match for a flash flood. I'm sure you've seen rocks much larger than a hundred pounds - not to mention entire uprooted large trees - moved significant distances during flash floods. I know I have.
What I envision is the house's walls failing, and along with whatever was in the house, being swept away. It's not hard to imagine the hundred pound box tumbling downstream, breaking up and scattering whatever was inside it - if there was such a box of ore, of course.
markmar
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sdcfia
You are talking about a flash flood which come from and high altitude and has a quick stream of water . I believe , the Salt River had not so quick stream to carry big and heavy rocks . Also , I believe how in the expansion routes of the Salt River if it had increased a flood , was not allowed for building .
When the river would rise out of its expansion routes , then only the height of the water with little mud could put in danger the residents life .
So , i believe how Waltz house was only flooded without any other structure damage .
You are talking about a flash flood which come from and high altitude and has a quick stream of water . I believe , the Salt River had not so quick stream to carry big and heavy rocks . Also , I believe how in the expansion routes of the Salt River if it had increased a flood , was not allowed for building .
When the river would rise out of its expansion routes , then only the height of the water with little mud could put in danger the residents life .
So , i believe how Waltz house was only flooded without any other structure damage .
lol...it amazes me that they would put divorces in the newspaper...nothing better to write about i guess
cactusjumper
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markmar
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Joe
Is just a matter of faith .
If I would say to my son " i have this thing from that place " , my son will believed without any doubt because i never lied to him .
And , if I would say the same thing to my best friend who knows me from my childhood , he would believed me too .
Not evidences required in these cases for these statements . Are only " subjective hear-say" for third persons who were only spectators at this saga .
Is just a matter of faith .
If I would say to my son " i have this thing from that place " , my son will believed without any doubt because i never lied to him .
And , if I would say the same thing to my best friend who knows me from my childhood , he would believed me too .
Not evidences required in these cases for these statements . Are only " subjective hear-say" for third persons who were only spectators at this saga .
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