Superstition People, Places, & Things.

[coazon de oro]

"But then you have to call Jim Bark a bald faced liar and that puts you in company with others who have taken the same stance you have. When things don't add up for you, call the conflicting evidence liars, or ignore it or obscure it."

I took your advice and read it again.

So,... if I disagree with his notes, I am branding Jim Bark a liar.
Makes sense.

Problem is, I disagree with Matthew's interpretation of Bark's letter, not the letter itself.
How do you explain the words in bold?

Are these your word, your opinion or, a quote?
"It was explained as plain as could be that many confuse Dick Holmes father with Dick Holmes, and that it was his father who arrived on the 28'th."


Hal

Howdy Hal,

Those words in bold cover everyone that forms an opinion by just picking out what fits their theory. While you may not be calling Jim Bark a liar, you are ignoring that he was an eyewitness of Dick Holmes being present before his father arrived. The part where Jim says that Dick Holmes was not by Waltz's deathbed is good enough for you, but he did not state being an eyewitness of that did he?

To separate the wheat from the chaff, one does not do it facing the wind. (my words also)

I don't have the energy, or interest to be deciphering simple sentences that get twisted to mean something else, so I will bow out so that you may continue with your assumptions.

Su Amigo,
Homar

 

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[Cubfan64]

Here is the copy I had to work with to transcribe what's being discussed in Bark's letter of April 6, 1932. The part concerning Holmes is around the bottom 1/3 of page 1 and the top portion of page 2. I'll be interested to see what people think - my guess is there will still be no agreement as to interpreting the meaning.

 

[Cubfan64]

To start things off, my interpretation of Bark's meaning in his letter is as follows...

1. Brownie's father (Dick) was not present at the death of Jacob Waltz.
2. Some of the ore from the Lost Dutchman was taken from under Waltz's bed while Rhiney and Julia were at the funeral by Gideon Roberts.
3. Gideon Roberts was a prospector and an acquaintance of of one of the families (I suspect he means the Holmes family)
4. Bark saw Gideon Roberts and Brownie's father (Dick) pounding ore in a mortar at some time - no clear explanation as to when
5. The way Dick is/was (the way he schooled Brownie or just a slang term implying Dick had a "way about him"), Bark didn't think Erwin would be able to get the best of Brownie or get any information from him.
6. Brownie's father left him a little money when he passed away not long before 1932.

I'm not going to get dragged into a discussion as to why I interpret the letter this way - some of it probably had to do with wading through a whole bunch of pages of Bark's handwriting and getting "a feel for it" so to speak. It is what it is - and it's open to interpretation I think. He only makes a few clear statements, but doesn't give times or places as to when some of the things happened.

Looking forward to seeing what others think

 

[markmar]

Hal

​

" The enthusiasm is nothing more nor less than the half of success " markmar - 9 July , 2016

But now let's go to examinate the Bark's letter , from the point which wrote about Dick Holmes jr.

And , he wrote " His father was not present at the death of old Jake " . Death day or moment ? Another enigma ?

If Brownie's father was not present at the moment when old Jake died , this doesn't mean how Dick Holmes jr. was not in Phoenix .
Maybe was present at old Jake death bed while Julia went to bring the doctor, and after the discussion with Waltz about LDM and candle box ore , and leaving there only Gideon Roberts to watch Waltz , went to his home to rest before Julia come back with the doctor .
Also Bark wrote how the ore was taken by Gideon Roberts while Rhiney and JUlia were attending the funeral of old Jake .
This means how Julia came with the doctor but was too late for old Jake , and after went for to arrange the Waltz funeral , leaving again Gideon alone to watch Waltz body . Because Holmes was not present , and knowing what Waltz has told to Holmes , Gideon decided to take the candle box with the gold ore before Julia come back and they have α conflict on to whom should to belonged the Waltz ore .

Also ,Bark left space for further interpretations in his letter

 

[Old]

Cubfan,

I agree with your analysis. I put a check mark by all you have listed.

I do have some additions.

We don't have the lead in letter from Northcutt, but its clear Bark was warning him as to George Holmes' reputation as to not be trusted. Erwin Ruth was the lead in to the conversation, so I suspect this must have been concerning some commentary from Geo. Holmes regarding the Ruth incident/involvement.

Bark states: George Holmes has a very bad reputation in Phoenix. Bark admits Geo. Holmes is smart and quick witted BUT ..."they (Phoenix folks) ALL say his is very crooked. I think that's plain spoken enough but I will elaborate if necessary. I think it speaks for itself as to Bark's believes.

Bark further states he .." feels certain..." the ore he saw Dick Holmes and Gid. Roberts pounding in a mortar as ore that was taken by Gid. from under the bed of Old Jake.

What I'm not at all clear about is Barks commit......."and Dick's way from school". I am unsure as to his use of the word "way". Don't know if he using it as a noun, adjective or adverb. Is he talking about a right of way such as a driveway, indicating a specific place. Or, saying Dick's a long time (distance, age) from school. Or; something completely different.

I have additional thoughts but will post them separately so as not to intermix with this discussion.

 

[Old]

I'd like a show of hands from you hard rock mining guys.

If you have an ore sample of the type from which the match box was constructed, would you be pounding it in a mortar?

I don't think I would but I'd like to hear your thoughts.

 

[azdave35]

I'd like a show of hands from you hard rock mining guys.

If you have an ore sample of the type from which the match box was constructed, would you be pounding it in a mortar?

I don't think I would but I'd like to hear your thoughts.

old...back then most people didn't care about jewelry rock ..all they wanted was the gold...gold in quartz jewelry wasn't popular back then..most people were more concerned about eating than making jewelry from gold ore...so IMO yes...most people back then would just crush the rock to get the gold ...even in this day and age where jewelry rock is highly sought after i still see idiots crushing it to get the gold

 

[azdave35]

I'd like a show of hands from you hard rock mining guys.

If you have an ore sample of the type from which the match box was constructed, would you be pounding it in a mortar?

I don't think I would but I'd like to hear your thoughts.

one more thing...once the rock is crushed ..it cant be identified...no way of telling where it came from....maybe they were destroying evidence...lol

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Obviously no Old. But then AZ has a valid point also.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

AZ, what a lack of faith in human nature you have

 

[azdave35]

AZ, what a lack of faith in human nature you have

lol...not so much a lack of faith...more like experience

 

[azdave35]

AZ, what a lack of faith in human nature you have

actually IF they were seen crushing ore it was more than likely some of the lower grade stuff..supposedly the best ore was sold still in original form

 

[AuTSaurus]

"To crush, or not to crush" , (quoting my self)

That is a fence I have never been able to climb down from.

 

[sdcfia]

I'd like a show of hands from you hard rock mining guys.

If you have an ore sample of the type from which the match box was constructed, would you be pounding it in a mortar?

I don't think I would but I'd like to hear your thoughts.

Yes, I agree with azdave35 - in the late 19th century, it would be not be unusual for miners to be reducing rich gold ore in a mortar. The jewelry rock itself was of course first cobbled out of it's host rock for convenience of transport (such as the ore that was allegedly found under Waltz's bed). Next, to cash out the gold values, the cobbled ore was reduced even further by crushing it into a form where the gold could be gathered by panning and amalgamating with mercury - much easier to carry, and much easier for a buyer to evaluate before buying.

Also, as stated, in those days high grade gold ore was not so uncommon in gold mining country because there were lots of gold mines and some of them recovered a lot of great ore. I think the matchbox ore - terrific as it is - is "ooohed and aaahed" to a much higher degree today than it might have been in the late 19th century, because in our lifetimes, such ore is seldom seen and normally collected for specimens or jewelry. In Waltz's day, gold was simply money, and it was easier to spend gold coins or gold certificates than chunks of ore.

 

[Old]

I'm totally open to taking lessons from you guys on the crushing thing. But; I would go about it much differently. Keep in mind my only experience is with placer gold so my visions may not have any relevance.

Wouldn't they have broken it up with hammers, even if they weren't going to keep it in intact with the quartz (foolish as I think that may be <g>).

First thing would be to pick out visible wire gold and stringer gold. Don't think you'd put that through a crush and retrieval process if you didn't have to. Looking at the matchbox and the supposed estimates of ounces per ton, that would take considerable time to go through the whole box. Kinda blows a hole in what day they were working that mortar <GGGG>

With the volume as most people estimate the candlebox to hold you are talking about a sizable amount to be working with a hand mortar. In my feeble mind, I'd picture them more with a sledge hammer with a large oil cloth catch base (at the least). They were "supposed" to be experienced miners. Seems a little make shift to picture them with a hand mortar and pestle going after 80 pounds (more or less) of cobble.

 

[azdave35]

I'm totally open to taking lessons from you guys on the crushing thing. But; I would go about it much differently. Keep in mind my only experience is with placer gold so my visions may not have any relevance.

Wouldn't they have broken it up with hammers, even if they weren't going to keep it in intact with the quartz (foolish as I think that may be <g>).

First thing would be to pick out visible wire gold and stringer gold. Don't think you'd put that through a crush and retrieval process if you didn't have to. Looking at the matchbox and the supposed estimates of ounces per ton, that would take considerable time to go through the whole box. Kinda blows a hole in what day they were working that mortar <GGGG>

With the volume as most people estimate the candlebox to hold you are talking about a sizable amount to be working with a hand mortar. In my feeble mind, I'd picture them more with a sledge hammer with a large oil cloth catch base (at the least). They were "supposed" to be experienced miners. Seems a little make shift to picture them with a hand mortar and pestle going after 80 pounds (more or less) of cobble.

lol..when i have 80 pounds of ore to crush i just run it through my jaw crusher...but these guys didn't have one of those so they used what ever they could find...hammer..mortar and pestle..i would say they didn't bother crushing the very high grade..they just sold it as is...the lower grade they probably just busted it up enough to get the bigger gold out...i'd like to have the pile of quartz they discarded after scalping the bigger gold out of it

 

[EarnieP]

AZ, what a lack of faith in human nature you have

Real, does "lack of faith" in this situation mean the same as 'keen insight'?

 

[sgtfda]

According to Herman his brother told him there were only a few pieces in the box that could be described as jewelry type ore.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Old, luv, that's exactly how the Spanish did it. First they reduced it with hammers or whatever, then fed it to a arrastre where they ground it to a certain finess acordimg to the final recovery method, Salt or Mercury amalgamation process.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

could be Eionie, but I was referring - with my tongue in my cheek - to