Superstition People, Places, & Things.

[sdcfia]

no additional contact info on adams...this is a patented mine so it is more difficult to search records on it..if you are not sure what patented means ..it means he owns the land..also water and mineral rights...back then you had to have at least 10 ounce per ton to get a patent..on a regular mining claim you don't own the land or water..just the mineral rights...so basically you are researching property...you have to go to yavapai county recorder and get into the plat maps and you can find out who owns it now.. but their website is acting up right now.....if you can catch the website when it is working search plat maps for township 8 north...range 4 west ..section 2 and possibly 11 ..there is a big mining company that has claims in those sections and they may have bought the patented claims..see pic for location of the claims...in the middle of the pic in white

If it's a patented mining claim, then there was a Mineral Survey done as part of the land patent process. The mineral survey became the plat of record for the land transfer. If you know the claim's location, you can pull up a copy of the original Mineral Survey by doing a search here: Search - BLM GLO Records . Mineral surveys have all sorts of useful information on them. If you can obtain the surveyor's field notes, you can sometimes find even more info.

 

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[azdave35]

If it's a patented mining claim, then there was a Mineral Survey done as part of the land patent process. The mineral survey became the plat of record for the land transfer. If you know the claim's location, you can pull up a copy of the original Mineral Survey by doing a search here: Search - BLM GLO Records . Mineral surveys have all sorts of useful information on them. If you can obtain the surveyor's field notes, you can sometimes find even more info.

thanks sdcfia....i tried looking under the mineral survey at county recorder but their site is junk today...its not bad when it works...you just type in township..range and section and any properties come up...maybe later tonight the site will be up again

 

[azdave35]

azdave,

Ore color must vary at depth (?) because here the surface "blowout" is white quartz, something closer to the photos of the matchbox.

Arizona Democrat: Goldberg Brothers of Phoenix are engaged in mining near Wickenburg and have ten men employed. This is the property where so many nuggets were found about ten years ago. Sam Powell states that he saw thirty-five men dry panning there at one time within a distance of three hundred yards a few days after the first nugget was found. So far all the gold has been found on the surface, the formation being an immense white blowout, but Goldberg Brothers are having a shaft sunk, confident that when so much free gold was found on the surface there must be more below.

The Oasis 21 December, 1901

​

Hal

hal...yes...ore can change throughout the deposit and does in alot of cases...i posted a true story a while back about a friend of mine that found a lost mine...when he first found it the vein was white quartz ..it soon pinched out but they hit some red quartz ...then further in they hit a vein of chrysocolla...so yes....it may have been the same way there too

 

[Matthew Roberts]

This article states that Dick Holmes returned to Phoenix from his onyx mine on the 28th of October.
The onyx mine is 50-55 miles north of Phoenix, and the spur road to the mine (a quarry) was, at that time, unimproved.


The Onyx Mine

"Dick Holmes came in yesterday from the Holmes & Woodson onyx mine, on Cave Creek. There are three men at work there, and the deeper they cut into the translucent stone the finer and more variegated are the specimens obtained. Dick will return in a day or so, after transacting some business connected with the further development of that valuable property."

Arizona republican. (Phoenix, Ariz.) 1890-1930, October 29, 1891, Image 1 « Chronicling America « Library of Congress


October 1891

View attachment 1333865


And to complicate things, I am told that there are at least two additional articles to consider.

Hal,

Dick Holmes, the father of George Brownie Holmes was often confused with his father RJ Dick Holmes Sr. as is the case with this October 29, 1891 Arizona Republican article.
Dick Holmes was actually Richard James Holmes III.
His father was Richard James Holmes II
and his grandfather was Richard James Holmes I

Richard James Holmes II (Dick Holmes father) was co-owner of the Onyx Mine with J.C. Woodson. The Holmes Onyx mine was located near Mayer Arizona.
Dick Holmes did not have any ownership or business interest in his fathers Onyx Mine. In fact, when Jacob Waltz died on October 25, 1891 Dick Holmes was employed at the Farley Gant Grocery store next door to Goldman's Mercantile on Washington Street in Phoenix. Dick Holmes was married and had a son and was living on west Jackson Street a few blocks from downtown.

Dick Holmes father was in October of 1891 involved in several mining ventures including the Onyx Mine. There are articles that place Holmes II at the Onyx and around Prescott in October 1891.

This Arizona Republic article that states Dick Holmes came into Phoenix from the Onyx Mine on the 28th has been clutched onto several times in the past by those who don't believe the LDM legend and have issues with the Holmes family. They hold this article up as "proof" that Dick Holmes could not have been with Waltz the night of the 25th.

But the article clearly is written about his father, Richard J. Holmes II, not Dick Holmes. Dick Holmes father has been referred to as Dick Holmes also in several Arizona articles so one needs to look past the name and read the context to connect the right person to the article.

Finally, as if there wasn't enough proof already, Jim Bark in a letter to Sims Ely's son wrote that on the morning of October 26, 1891 he (Jim Bark) personally saw Dick Holmes and Gideon Roberts, in Phoenix, breaking up gold ore "down by the school". Jim Bark was an honored and respected Arizona rancher and businessman and his word was beyond question.

Since Jim Bark personally saw Dick Holmes on the morning of October 26, 1891 Dick Holmes couldn't possibly have been at the Onyx Mine near Mayer and return to Phoenix from the mine on the 28th. Without question the man in the October 29,th article was RJ Holmes II, not Dick Holmes.

This will all be dismissed by those who disbelieve the LDM legend and Holmes family and the issue will come up again and again as it has for years past.

Matthew

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Photo of the Holmes Woodson Onyx Mine north of Phoenix near Mayer.
RJ Holmes II (Dick Holmes Sr.) bonded and developed this mine with JC Woodson and the mine saw hard times in the recession depression of 1893-1895.
RJ Holmes II mine and his ventures took a big hit in the 1893 crash and he never recovered fully from the losses.
The Onyx Mine however survived and is still a functioning mine today having gotten through all the good and bad stretches of fortune.

Matthew

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Hal,

I have to disagree with just about everything you have posted. The man at the Onyx mine during the October 28 time period was Dick Holmes father, RJ Holmes SR. II.
So many things you posted are in error but for time and space and posting link after link I will take just one to illustrate you are using assumption and then applying what might have been.

You wrote; Jim claims to have seen Dick and Roberts pounding ore but, he never mentions a date. Bark is saying that Roberts took the gold from Waltz, from under his bed while everyone was at the funeral, and that he saw Roberts and Holmes pounding it up, but no date is given. That becomes obvious once you accept that Dick was not even in Phoenix that day, and certainly not with Waltz.

Jim Bark does give the exact date, and the exact time, the date of Waltz's funeral which was the day after he died October 26, 1891 at 10:00 AM. That was also in the newspaper Hal but that doesn't fit with what you are saying so you try to obscure or ignore it as you are ignoring a lot of other things.

I won't post anymore and will let you tell your story without interference. I've been down this road many times before and it always ends the same. Brownies father was in Phoenix when waltz died on the 25th. If you can get people to believe the man coming to Phoenix on October 28th was Brownies father good for you, I'm happy for you, it doesn't change me one way or the other. But then you have to call Jim Bark a bald faced liar and that puts you in company with others who have taken the same stance you have. When things don't add up for you, call the conflicting evidence liars, or ignore it or obscure it.


Matthew

 

[markmar]

Just a logical observation . Why G. Roberts to give Dick Holmes a part of Waltz ore if Dick Holmes wasn't at the place when the ore was stolen/given ? Were they associated in something or GR has an obligation to DH ? was GR a so good man to share the gold with a neighbor or a friend ?

To me don't sound logical to share the ore if they weren't accomplices/partners .

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Just a logical observation . Why G. Roberts to give Dick Holmes a part of Waltz ore if Dick Holmes wasn't at the place when the ore was stolen/given ? Were they associated in something or GR has an obligation to DH ? was GR a so good man to share the gold with a neighbor or a friend ?

To me don't sound logical to share the ore if they weren't accomplices/partners .

hello markmar,

As stated by Brownie in interviews with him, and in Brownie Holmes written history, Gideon Roberts was the uncle of Dick Holmes step-son, Jesse Roberts.
Jesse Roberts was Brownie Holmes half brother. Brownies mother, the former Ida Roberts remained very close with the whole Roberts family after her divorce from William Roberts. In fact, all of the bridesmaids at Dick and Ida Holmes wedding were her former Roberts sisters in law. The two families remained very close to the very end.
Dick Holmes and Gideon Roberts were more than partners, they were family. The Gideon Roberts side of the story has been told by Brownie and others but not in a public forum.

Best to you ,

Matthew

 

[EarnieP]

Great info,Hal and Matthew.
You are definitely both in the cream of the crop researching the LDM here and I'm certainly not going to be picking a side on this one, not yet anyway. Just eagerly reading the evidence both ways.
I'm hoping we are able to reach reasonable conclusions with as little 'blood shed' as possible.
Or as Hal says "subject it to scrutiny to make any honest advances."

Best to both,
Please do continue...

 

[cactusjumper]

Matthew,

I consider you a friend and hope that the feeling is mutual. But when it comes to being historically correct, there is no wiggle room in my mind. We have to be able to form an opinion, and willing to subject it to scrutiny to make any honest advances.

And, most important, I never called Jim Bark a liar much less a bald face one. Not for one moment. I wrote that Jim gave it to you straight and I am now saying that you misinterpreted what he wrote. You are certainly not alone in that regard. It is an easy thing to do without believing/knowing that Dick actually did own a share of the onyx mine and that he actually was not in Phoenix when Waltz passed.

As I said, this is my interpretation. One interpretation among several.

Hal

Hal,

Not everyone will take kindly to opposing interpretations or opinions. You seem to be making some headway into an old story. Keep up the good work.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Hal,

I have to disagree with just about everything you have posted. The man at the Onyx mine during the October 28 time period was Dick Holmes father, RJ Holmes SR. II.
So many things you posted are in error but for time and space and posting link after link I will take just one to illustrate you are using assumption and then applying what might have been.

You wrote; Jim claims to have seen Dick and Roberts pounding ore but, he never mentions a date. Bark is saying that Roberts took the gold from Waltz, from under his bed while everyone was at the funeral, and that he saw Roberts and Holmes pounding it up, but no date is given. That becomes obvious once you accept that Dick was not even in Phoenix that day, and certainly not with Waltz.

Jim Bark does give the exact date, and the exact time, the date of Waltz's funeral which was the day after he died October 26, 1891 at 10:00 AM. That was also in the newspaper Hal but that doesn't fit with what you are saying so you try to obscure or ignore it as you are ignoring a lot of other things.

I won't post anymore and will let you tell your story without interference. I've been down this road many times before and it always ends the same. Brownies father was in Phoenix when waltz died on the 25th. If you can get people to believe the man coming to Phoenix on October 28th was Brownies father good for you, I'm happy for you, it doesn't change me one way or the other. But then you have to call Jim Bark a bald faced liar and that puts you in company with others who have taken the same stance you have. When things don't add up for you, call the conflicting evidence liars, or ignore it or obscure it.

Best to you as always.

Matthew

Matthew,

That seems like a stretch, but you may be reading Hal's comments a little different than I am.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[coazon de oro]

Matthew,

I consider you a friend and hope that the feeling is mutual. But when it comes to being historically correct, there is no wiggle room in my mind. We have to be able to form an opinion, and willing to subject it to scrutiny to make any honest advances.

And, most important, I never called Jim Bark a liar much less a bald face one. Not for one moment. I wrote that Jim gave it to you straight and I am now saying that you misinterpreted what he wrote. You are certainly not alone in that regard. It is an easy thing to do without believing/knowing that Dick actually did own a share of the onyx mine and that he actually was not in Phoenix when Waltz passed.

As I said, this is my interpretation. One interpretation among several.

Hal

Howdy Hal,

No one said that you called Jim Bark a liar, just re-read as you ask of others.

What you were told is that for your interpretation to fit, you would have to call Jim Bark a liar.

It was explained as plain as could be that many confuse Dick Holmes father with Dick Holmes, and that it was his father who arrived on the 28'th.

Bark did tell it straight, you claim "I feel certain" is not "I know". If you re-read what you typed in bold you will find him saying "And I saw the father of Geo. Holmes helping old Gid. Roberts pounding it in a mortar......." That removes all doubt my friend, he was an eye witness of Dick Holmes being there before his father arrived on the 28th.

Why would Mrs. Thomas accuse Dick Holmes of steeling the candle box of gold from under the bed if he was not there? Can't disregard that also, and no it does not make sense that a man of Holmes reputation would steel from a dying man. Why because it is just an accusation, Holmes said it was given to him.

Homar

 

[Cubfan64]

If I can find the time to do it, I will post a scan of the letter from Jim Bark that has been quoted here a couple times. I transcribed it to the best of my ability and that's what has been posted here, but it was/is difficult with some of those letters from Bark to tell what was a comma, what was a period, when a sentence started and ended, etc... so it's only fair that everyone interested get the opportunity to see the copy I made the transcription from.

I say this especially because a comma or period can VERY CLEARLY make a difference in the interpretation of Bark's comments about seeing Dick Holmes and Gideon Roberts grinding ore. Rereading that part of the letter, depending on the punctuation as well as just Bark's style of writing, I could convince myself that Brownie's father was there around the time of the funeral, or that Bark saw Dick and Roberts grinding that ore at a completely different time. Stay tuned and form your own opinions after I post the scanned copy.

I won't have time to post it until late this evening.

 

[markmar]

Hal

You have as proof , a journalist's statement which also didn't make it clear who Holmes was , the third or the second . Big mistake for a journalist if he knew how they had the same name . He left this detail in the air , and now we have this debate .
Because the possibility is 50-50 to been Brownie's father the Holmes who arrived in Phoenix , we need of some suplimentary evidences to lock the case . So , we need a witness who had seen Holmes III in other place than Phoenix before 28 October 1891 , or everything else with his signature which could proven how was outside Phoenis till 28 October .

Also , Julias trial against Holmes III and the Holmes manuscript , give a more 30% the Holmes who arrived at 28 October to been the second . I also believe how was the second .

Because the debate started from the matchbox , Jim Bark's statement ( without a date but this doesn't matter ) shows Dick Holmes III in possesion of Waltz ore ( via Gideon or not ) and this give a continuity in what Brownie stated in his affidavit .

 

[cactusjumper]

Hal

You have as proof , a journalist's statement which also didn't make it clear who Holmes was , the third or the second . Big mistake for a journalist if he knew how they had the same name . He left this detail in the air , and now we have this debate .
Because the possibility is 50-50 to been Brownie's father the Holmes who arrived in Phoenix , we need of some suplimentary evidences to lock the case . So , we need a witness who had seen Holmes III in other place than Phoenix before 28 October 1891 , or everything else with his signature which could proven how was outside Phoenis till 28 October .

Also , Julias trial against Holmes III and the Holmes manuscript , give a more 30% the Holmes who arrived at 28 October to been the second . I also believe how was the second .

Because the debate started from the matchbox , Jim Bark's statement ( without a date but this doesn't matter ) shows Dick Holmes III in possesion of Waltz ore ( via Gideon or not ) and this give a continuity in what Brownie stated in his affidavit .

Marius,

Where are the court documents for this case? Have you seen them?

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[markmar]

Marius,

Where are the court documents for this case? Have you seen them?

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

Joe

No , I didn't see them . This don't change how Dick Holmes III had in his possesion the Waltz ore .
Can you tell me what/who was the source of the journalist when he stated/wrote how Holmes went to Phoenix in 28 October and not before . He was chasing the Holmes tail ?
How the journalist hasn't wrote the full Holmes name , to me his statement is doubtful and not worth to taking in consideration .
Or... ( to think like a detective ) was the Journalist a friend of Holmes III and wanted to give him an alibi if the candle box with Waltz ore would been stolen ?

 

[cactusjumper]

Why don't we have more evidence from Gideon Roberts. I know he died a short time after Waltz, so the story goes, so where are his words as to what happened? Was he in Matthew Roberts Arizona family? If so, his aunt must have documented some of Gideon's history.

Good luck to all,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

Joe

No , I didn't see them . This don't change how Dick Holmes III had in his possesion the Waltz ore .
Can you tell me what/who was the source of the journalist when he stated/wrote how Holmes went to Phoenix in 28 October and not before . He was chasing the Holmes tail ?
How the journalist hasn't wrote the full Holmes name , to me his statement is doubtful and not worth to taking in consideration .
Or... ( to think like a detective ) was the Journalist a friend of Holmes III and wanted to give him an alibi if the candlebox with Waltz ore would been stolen ?

Marius,

There are so many questionable stories surrounding the LDM, it's hard to know which ones to give credence to. There was a great deal of "ore" in Arizona in those days. Was there some kind of sign glued to the ore stating......"Jacob Waltz's ore"? I have always thought it prudent to pursue the facts behind each story, regardless of whether I believed it or not. Let the weight of the evidence form your opinions.

I used to automatically believe my friend's stories, without reservation. Having caught a "friend" in serial lying, I was quickly cured of that little habit. Now I check, almost, everyone's stories, including my own. That's how you correct mistakes. There are some friends who's stories I accept as true, but I still reserve the option of finding the truth, whichever side that comes down on. Nothing to do with our friendship, but everyone makes mistakes......including me.

That being said, there are friends who's stories I don't check into. People like Tom, Bob, Dave, Roy......etc. After all, this is the LDM Community.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[markmar]

Joe

Yes , are many stories on LDM , but i used to make my own based in logical explanations , habits of that era and some documented proofs ( even if are only written words ) of some trusted people who helped to clear in some big percentage the clouds from the LDM saga .
Do you know why I believe Holmes III was at the Waltz death bed with the Gideon Roberts ? Because Holmes or Roberts alone , would been vulnerable in a trial if Julia would state how one of them stole the ore . DH and GR had each other as witness how Waltz gave them the ore with the condition to help Julia to find the mine . This is the reason which made Julia to lose the trial ( if ever been one ) or to withdraw the accusations ( by advocate advice ) .
IMO , the route that Waltz told to DH is accurate ( if you take the first water clue as the Hidden spring and the second water clue as the actual First Water spring ), but the route was incomplete and DH was confused to which was the first and the second water clues . To complete the route DH should to collaborate with Julia , thing which never took place . Was their mistake and maybe is why the LDM remains lost .

 

[cactusjumper]

Joe

Yes , are many stories on LDM , but i used to make my own based in logical explanations , habits of that era and some documented proofs ( even if are only written words ) of some trusted people who helped to clear in some big percentage the clouds from the LDM saga .
Do you know why I believe Holmes III was at the Waltz death bed with the Gideon Roberts ? Because Holmes or Roberts alone , would been vulnerable in a trial if Julia would state how one of them stole the ore . DH and GR had each other as witness how Waltz gave them the ore with the condition to help Julia to find the mine . This is the reason which made Julia to lose the trial ( if ever been one ) or to withdraw the accusations ( by advocate advice ) .
IMO , the route that Waltz told to DH is accurate ( if you take the first water clue as the Hidden spring and the second water clue as the actual First Water spring ), but the route was incomplete and DH was confused to which was the first and the second water clues . To complete the route DH should to collaborate with Julia , thing which never took place . Was their mistake and maybe is why the LDM remains lost .

Marius,

Two people closest to the events started their searches from the southwestern end of the Superstitions. Julia and Rhiney, on their first attempt, tried to drive their wagon up Hog Canyon. When Brownie started his last big search he started from the main mountain and searched all of the canyons from there, across the range, to the northeast. That's pretty good evidence for me.

Beyond that, Julia stated that Waltz was going to take them to "the board house" and point out the trail to the mine from there. Bicknell's directions, which Ruth carried into the mountains, started from the first canyon from the west end of the range......as I recall. Everything else, is said to have come from Dick Holmes, through Brownie, and they are questionable witness' in my mind.

On the other hand, you could be correct.

Take care,

Joe