Superstition People, Places, & Things.

[EarnieP]

Your research has convinced me Hal, I'm with you on the death bed confession! (or rather the lack of one to Dick Holmes.)

It is confusing (for me at least) trying to keep the family members histories straight.
Maybe we should call them Holmes1, Holmes2, and Holmes3.
The Sr., Dick, and Brownie does work but at times leaves my poor mind #%&*% dizzy!

 

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[markmar]

Hal

You wrote : " Richard James "Dick" Holmes Jr. was the partner of B. Heyman (Phoenix furniture store), and the partner of James Woodson (onyx mine). "

So , Dick Holmes jr. was a successful businessman but he was dish washing for hobby . Hard to believe but if you insist ...

 

[Garry]

coazon de oro,

Sorry, your post confused me. You wrote that it was clear that Dick Holmes Jr. was the dishwasher but, described Heymen as his (Dick Homes Jr.) "son's" former partner. That would be George Brownie Holmes.

Richard James Holmes Sr. was a successful prospector/miner who lived in the Prescott area. He would not have been washing dishes in 1891/2.

Richard James "Dick" Holmes Jr. was the partner of B. Heyman (Phoenix furniture store), and the partner of James Woodson (onyx mine).

Dick's son, George Brownie Holmes, to the day he died, according to those who knew him best, denied writing the Holmes Manuscript.

The only real assumption that has been made is that R.J. Holmes Sr. owned the Onyx Mine.
Alright, prove it!
Unfortunately, I don't believe that anyone can.

I know almost nothing about mining and mining law. But a wife owning a $500 share of her husbands onyx quarry seems reasonable to me. Ida may have simply backed Dick financially, initially.

"Bottom line" is that Brownie denied writing the manuscript. This means that we don't have ANY direct quote from Brownie stating that his father told him about Waltz's confession. Do you know of one?

The manuscript is a composite fantasy.

Dick moved to Phoenix in 1889, years after Waltz's last trip to his mine (84/85?).

Hal,

You have done a good job researching the Onyx Mine and Holmes Sr. vs Holmes Jr discussion. I wouldn’t worry about trying to convince anyone! The only proof "they" will every offer is that they can shout louder than you.

I don’t believe there has ever really been any question about which Holmes was involved in the Onyx mine as it is well worn ground. Of course there are those who want to muddy the water since it doesn’t fit the agenda they are pushing (ie. Dick Holmes was at Waltz’s bedside the night he died and passed on information about the location of his rich mine).

Throw out Dick Holmes being there the night Waltz died, throw out Waltz’s death bed revelations, other events/items that are flawed and you have a “lot” of people with egg on their faces.

Keep up the good work,

Garry

Just don’t expect many pats on the back!

 

[coazon de oro]

coazon de oro,

Sorry, your post confused me. You wrote that it was clear that Dick Holmes Jr. was the dishwasher but, described Heymen as his (Dick Homes Jr.) "son's" former partner. That would be George Brownie Holmes.

Richard James Holmes Sr. was a successful prospector/miner who lived in the Prescott area. He would not have been washing dishes in 1891/2.

Richard James "Dick" Holmes Jr. was the partner of B. Heyman (Phoenix furniture store), and the partner of James Woodson (onyx mine).

Dick's son, George Brownie Holmes, to the day he died, according to those who knew him best, denied writing the Holmes Manuscript.

The only real assumption that has been made is that R.J. Holmes Sr. owned the Onyx Mine.
Alright, prove it!
Unfortunately, I don't believe that anyone can.

I know almost nothing about mining and mining law. But a wife owning a $500 share of her husbands onyx quarry seems reasonable to me. Ida may have simply backed Dick financially, initially.

"Bottom line" is that Brownie denied writing the manuscript. This means that we don't have ANY direct quote from Brownie stating that his father told him about Waltz's confession. Do you know of one?

The manuscript is a composite fantasy.

Dick moved to Phoenix in 1889, years after Waltz's last trip to his mine (84/85?).

Howdy Hal,

Just reread it keeping in mind that Dick Holmes Jr. is the father of Dick Holmes III, not Brownie Holmes.

Dick Holmes Jr., or Dick Holmes II was washing dishes in 1897, not 1891. You're not paying attention Hal (my quote) .

The proof is in Dick Holmes III interview, he never claimed to be a dish washer, or to have any share of a very valuable onyx mine.

That Brownie denied writing the manuscript, does not make it a composite fantasy, it could of been done by his father, or he lied, not wanting other Dutch hunters knowing the directions were real, since he was still looking for it. Just ask Mr. Clay Worst, there's a reason why he guards the missing clues.

Garry, I don't try to shout louder than others, I have always tried to lead everyone in the right direction, when things are flawed they are flawed. I have great respect for every Dutch hunter, and their ideas, but basic stories are basic for a reason, they have been scrutinized since the beginning by those who were there.

Homar

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal,

You have done a good job researching the Onyx Mine and Holmes Sr. vs Holmes Jr discussion. I wouldn’t worry about trying to convince anyone! The only proof "they" will every offer is that they can shout louder than you.

I don’t believe there has ever really been any question about which Holmes was involved in the Onyx mine as it is well worn ground. Of course there are those who want to muddy the water since it doesn’t fit the agenda they are pushing (ie. Dick Holmes was at Waltz’s bedside the night he died and passed on information about the location of his rich mine).

Throw out Dick Holmes being there the night Waltz died, throw out Waltz’s death bed revelations, other events/items that are flawed and you have a “lot” of people with egg on their faces.

Keep up the good work,

Garry

Just don’t expect many pats on the back!

Garry,
Thank you for the kind words.
Ya, anyone looking hard enough would eventually reach the same conclusion.

You wrote "a lot of people with egg on their faces." Not sure that anyone should feel embarrassed about having reached the wrong conclusion. The name thing is extremely confusing, not to mention that we are dealing with legends and folklore.

A little closer to the truth is all we can hope for.

I think that the manuscript, the reasons for writing then denying it will eventually be explained by TE Glover.
Hopefully, Ryan will eventually do the same with the stone maps.

 

[Hal Croves]

Howdy Hal,

Just reread it keeping in mind that Dick Holmes Jr. is the father of Dick Holmes III, not Brownie Holmes.

Dick Holmes Jr., or Dick Holmes II was washing dishes in 1897, not 1891. You're not paying attention Hal (my quote) .

The proof is in Dick Holmes III interview, he never claimed to be a dish washer, or to have any share of a very valuable onyx mine.

That Brownie denied writing the manuscript, does not make it a composite fantasy, it could of been done by his father, or he lied, not wanting other Dutch hunters knowing the directions were real, since he was still looking for it. Just ask Mr. Clay Worst, there's a reason why he guards the missing clues.

Garry, I don't try to shout louder than others, I have always tried to lead everyone in the right direction, when things are flawed they are flawed. I have great respect for every Dutch hunter, and their ideas, but basic stories are basic for a reason, they have been scrutinized since the beginning by those who were there.

Homar

Mi Hermano,
Unfortunately, the facts argue against it and if you will welcome the advice, I feel that you are one generation off.
Unless you can prove three generations of the same Richard James Holmes family in Arizona Territory in 1891?
I would need to see that.
And I have not.


Anyway, what do you think about Gideon Roberts?




Hal

 

[cactusjumper]

Mi Hermano,
Unfortunately, the facts argue against it and if you will welcome the advice, I feel that you are one generation off.
Unless you can prove three generations of the same Richard James Holmes family in Arizona Territory in 1891?
I would need to see that.
And I have not.


Anyway, what do you think about Gideon Roberts?




Hal

Hal,

I believe, could be wrong, that Matthew Roberts has stated that Gideon Roberts was one of his ancestors. That being the case, I imagine he has information on the man. Believe Bertie Roberts was the family historian and Matthew has her records. If what I have written is true, that might be the direction you should pursue in your research.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Hal Croves]

Strange. Today, all my links seem to be frozen and I can't get on chronicling america?
Can someone please test their site and the links and let me know?

 

[EarnieP]

Strange. Today, all my links seem to be frozen and I can't get on chronicling america?
Can someone please test their site and the links and let me know?

I'm late reading this, but yes I am also having trouble with the chronicling america links not loading.

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal,

I believe, could be wrong, that Matthew Roberts has stated that Gideon Roberts was one of his ancestors. That being the case, I imagine he has information on the man. Believe Bertie Roberts was the family historian and Matthew has her records. If what I have written is true, that might be the direction you should pursue in your research.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

cactusjumper,

Matthew Roberts, on FaceBook (Feb20), posted a few paragraphs on Gideon Roberts.

I can say that his genealogy on the Roberts name, which was actually Roberds, is 100% correct.

"In 1885, the first homestead in Palo Verde, AZ, was filed by Garrett Alexander ROBERDS and his wife, Elizabeth ROBERDS. They, along with their children, John, Oscar, Moses, William, Garrett, Laura, Nancy and Elizabeth, came from Trinidad, Colorado by covered wagon to Palo Verde, Arizona. They were herding cattle and horses along with their covered wagon. They followed the Gila River to the point where it joins with the Hassayampa River and decided to homestead the area between two buttes. When the papers were filed for the homestead, the name ROBERDS had been misspelled as ROBERTS. Since the capitol of Arizona at the time was in Prescott, Arizona, it was about a four day ride to go back to Prescott to change their name on the homestead papers. So, the family decided it was easier to change their name to ROBERTS, which they did."

A small detail that he left out that I find funny... the Roberts (G.A.'s family) were all forced to climb mesquite trees in the flood of 1891.

"They were flooded multiple times and sometimes escaping with only their lives. In about the 1890's, they made the trip back to Prescott to change their homestead location."
Stories - Palo Verde Elementary School

"They engaged in cattle raising. In 1891, a devastating flood covered the valley, and all the Roberts family were forced to climb mesquite trees to keep from drowning."

I can not comment on the interview with John Roach Roberts (done by Marge West and Algona Winslow, and others), the records of James Richards, and the taped interview with Brownie.

Matthew states that the Gideon Roberts described in Barks letter is the uncle of Jesse Franklin (Roberts) Holmes.
The man buried in Section XIII, grave 16, Phoenix Pioneer Cemetery.

Here is the problem...

Matthew wrote:
"In Brownie Holmes manuscript and in taped interviews, Brownie clearly states that Gideon Roberts was his brother's (Jesse Roberts) "uncle".

And:
"It was Brownie Holmes brother's great uncle, Gideon Roberts, the man who is buried in Section XIII grave 16 in the Pioneer Cemetary"

So, is Gideon Roberts William's Brother or, William's uncle?
Age 69 in 92' would make Gideon Roberts William's uncle.
And Jesse's Franklin (Roberts) Holmes' great uncle.


If Matthew can provide a verifiable connection between Gideon16 as the uncle of William Roberts, I would say that he nailed it.

Still, no Gideon Roberts death certificate on file, something that needs to be explained.

 

[Hal Croves]

Gary,

If it turns out that Gideon16 is not the Gideon Roberts in Jim Bark's letter, I would tell you to look at John Gideon Roberts.
John was 17 when Waltz died and one of the children of G.A. Roberts' who climbed trees during the flood of 91'.

Next would be Dr. Gideon O Roberts, connected to the Trinidad (Trinidid?) Mining Company.



Still, John Gideon Roberts would be may first guess as Bark's Gideon.
Young John Gideon and Dick Holmes may have known each other.


And only if Gideon16 turns out to be a dud.


Hal

 

[Garry]

Hal,

You are in the ball park but don't get ahead of yourself. You have the correct Gideon O. Roberts (Roberds) and you will find his obituary in the Trinidad, Colorado newspaper and a follow up obit in the Arizona Weekly Republican, June 18, 1903.

Did he die in 1892? Did he die in Phoenix? Do you know why he was well known in Phoenix? Why do you believe he was buried in Phoenix? etc.

Keep Digging,

Garry

 

[Cubfan64]

Gary,

If it turns out that Gideon16 is not the Gideon Roberts in Jim Bark's letter, I would tell you to look at John Gideon Roberts.
John was 17 when Waltz died and one of the children of G.A. Roberts' who climbed trees during the flood of 91'.

Next would be Dr. Gideon O Roberts, connected to the Trinidad (Trinidid?) Mining Company.



Still, John Gideon Roberts would be may first guess as Bark's Gideon.
Young John Gideon and Dick Holmes may have known each other.


And only if Gideon16 turns out to be a dud.


Hal

Hal,

I don't think Bark would refer to 17 year old John Gideon Roberts as "an old prospector acquaintance of the family" as he does in his letter. An argument could be made that he is referring to him in the present tense (1932 from the letter) which would put him at ~58 years old, but it doesn't seem that way to me - it might just be my perspective on the letter.

 

[Garry]

I believe these photos may have been posted before but I thought some might find them interesting. Two appeared in Dr. Glover’s first book “The Lost Dutchman Mine of Jacob Waltz (Part 1: The Golden Dream)” published first in 1998.

The Holmes family donated these and other numerous family photos to the Greg Davis Collection and the Superstition Mountain Historical Society.

There are two photos of Dick Holmes Jr. at his Onyx mine (Dolly Varden) North of Seven Springs (circa 1891). I’m posting two pictures from a single photo, one of which is a cropped image or Dick Holmes Jr. I’m also posting a photo of Dick and Ida Davis Holmes possibly taken around the time of their marriage, 1889, for comparison. I’m pretty sure the information in the caption was provided by Brownie Holmes. Greg Davis would know for sure.







I’m also posting a second photo of the Onyx mine although the person identified as Dick Holmes Jr., shown in the second picture appears in the background and it’s not too clear an image. It does show a crew at the mine and I think there may be newspaper articles that provide a hint of the time period that the photo was taken. I’ll see if I can run those down.



Since these pictures were with the Holmes family, we can be sure that they are Dick Holmes Jr and he was involved with the Onyx mine.

Garry

 

[Hal Croves]

I believe these photos may have been posted before but I thought some might find them interesting. Two appeared in Dr. Glover’s first book “The Lost Dutchman Mine of Jacob Waltz (Part 1: The Golden Dream)” published first in 1998.

The Holmes family donated these and other numerous family photos to the Greg Davis Collection and the Superstition Mountain Historical Society.

There are two photos of Dick Holmes Jr. at his Onyx mine (Dolly Varden) North of Seven Springs (circa 1891). I’m posting two pictures from a single photo, one of which is a cropped image or Dick Holmes Jr. I’m also posting a photo of Dick and Ida Davis Holmes possibly taken around the time of their marriage, 1889, for comparison. I’m pretty sure the information in the caption was provided by Brownie Holmes. Greg Davis would know for sure.

View attachment 1338497

View attachment 1338498

View attachment 1338499

I’m also posting a second photo of the Onyx mine although the person identified as Dick Holmes Jr., shown in the second picture appears in the background and it’s not too clear an image. It does show a crew at the mine and I think there may be newspaper articles that provide a hint of the time period that the photo was taken. I’ll see if I can run those down.

View attachment 1338500

Since these pictures were with the Holmes family, we can be sure that they are Dick Holmes Jr and he was involved with the Onyx mine.

Garry

A brilliant post Gary.

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal,

I don't think Bark would refer to 17 year old John Gideon Roberts as "an old prospector acquaintance of the family" as he does in his letter. An argument could be made that he is referring to him in the present tense (1932 from the letter) which would put him at ~58 years old, but it doesn't seem that way to me - it might just be my perspective on the letter.

No, I think that you are correct.
Reading it again with your explanation eliminates young John Gideon.

 

[Old]

I have a bit of a different spin on the who owned the onyx mine(s) in Cave Creek. This is just supposition on my part. I have little or nothing other than a hunch to base my assumptions on. Its just an interesting aside and does little to further the story.

I "think" R J Holmes (the elder and the younger) each owned a percentage interest in the mines. I think there were multiple claims, at least two. All known as the Dolly Varden mine(s). I believe Woodson owned a percentage (perhaps a half) with both the elder and younger Holmes under separate claims.

I suspect the elder R J Holmes died sometime prior to 1897 and the newspaper clippings of the sale of the claims involves the sale of both R J Holmes (the elder) and R J Holmes (the younger aka Dick Holmes) interests. I believe Dick Holmes (the younger) in addition to marrying an Ida, had a sister named Ida H. Holmes. Ida H. Holmes along with the remaining children of the elder Holmes executed a deed to Heyman. Dick Holmes the younger also having, by separate deed, conveyed his interest to B. Heyman.

Its just a hunch but it would explain why there were separate deeds, differing amounts, and the mention of Ida H. Holmes and others executing a separate instrument of conveyance. Ida M. Holmes, the wife of Dick, the younger, always went by Ida M. I believe the middle initial distinguished between two different people.

If anyone has access to Yavapai County records this can be easily checked.

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal,

You are in the ball park but don't get ahead of yourself. You have the correct Gideon O. Roberts (Roberds) and you will find his obituary in the Trinidad, Colorado newspaper and a follow up obit in the Arizona Weekly Republican, June 18, 1903.

Did he die in 1892? Did he die in Phoenix? Do you know why he was well known in Phoenix? Why do you believe he was buried in Phoenix? etc.

Keep Digging,

Garry

Gary,
A little confusion.
Did it become the Arizona Weekly Republican again in 1903?

"The Arizona Republican also published the Arizona Weekly Republican in 1890, which about a year later became the Weekly Republican. From 1892 to 1899, it called itself the Arizona Weekly Republican followed by a one-year stint as the Republican Herald. From the end of 1900 until May 1901, the weekly was renamed simply the Arizona Republican, before returning once more to the Weekly Republican."

About Arizona weekly republican. (Phoenix, Ariz.) 1892-1899 « Chronicling America « Library of Congress



Thanks,
Hal

 

[Garry]

Hal,

I may also be confused. This is how I recall it from several years ago. The Arizona Repblican Weekly (July 18, 1903) was a newspaper that contained the highlights of the previous week taken from the daily Arizona Republican. When I found the obit, one version was unreadable in some areas and I found the second obit in the other paper which was somewhat better. I think the obit should be in both places but I will post the image of the obituary and my transcription.

Sorry about that!



(Transcription)

Arizona Republican, Friday Morning, July 12, 1903, Page 4

G. O. ROBERTS DEAD

Succumbed to Apoplexy at His Home in Trinidad

G. O. Roberds, well known in this city, died in Trinidad, Col., on Saturday morning at 9:30 o’clock. He was down town the day before and was taken ill just before super time while doing chores around his house, dying the next morning of apoplexy. The chronicle-News of Trinidad speaks as follows of the dead man.

“In the death of Mr. Roberds the community loses one of her most honored pioneers. He came here from Texas in 1874 and since then has been identified with the best interests of the county, having been engaged actively in the cattle business and extensively engaged in mining enterprises.

“He was born in North Carolina in 1832. When very young he went to Georgia, where he was married in 1858. The next year he came west and settled in Texas, where he resided until he came to this state.

“None could tell more of the first days of the west. Twice Mr. Roberds had all taken by the Indians and for a long time he was active in defending the settlements from Indian depredations. To the young men it was very interesting to listen to the many dangers gone through with, which were more strange than fiction.

“Mr. Roberds has two brothers and a sister in Arizona. They are R. H. Roberds of Castle Creek and G. A. Roberds of Buckeye, the father of deputy sheriff Oscar Roberds. The dead man’s sister is the mother of W. A. Milton of Phoenix.

G. O. Roberds has been more or less interested in Arizona enterprises for the last twenty years and has spent nearly every winter in this city. His most notable ventures were on Castle creek where he expended a large amount of money in the development of the Whipsaw mine together with two of his Trinidad associates, Messrs. Lenhart and South. He was also interested at one time in a stamp mill alongside of which the Briggs or Castle Creek smelter was built.

Garry

 

[Hal Croves]

Get this.
I received an explanation today regarding the lack of access to Chronicling America. The main government site is under attacked by some wanker in "Turkey" who is essentially trying to overload the system, trying to crash it. Access to Chronicling America, which is a part of the main gov site, is being disrupted by the attack.

The main site is back up now but, still a problem for Macs.


Amazing.



Hal