Susquehanna County, Pennsylvania Treasure........... and the Susquehanna River

[jeff of pa]

"A straggling Indian, who was passing up the Susquehanna, had told of buried treasure. Joseph, hearing of this, hunted up the Indian, and induced him to reveal the place where it was buried. The Indian told him that a point, a certain number of paces due north from the highest point of Turkey Hill, on the opposite side of the Susquehanna River, was the place. Joseph now looked about for some man of means to engage in the enterprise. He induced a well-to-do farmer by the name of Harper, of Harpersville, N. Y., to go in with him".

More Info Here

http://www.olivercowdery.com/smithhome/1873Susq.htm

 

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[Oroblanco]

Re: Susquehanna County, Pennsylvania Treasure.

Greetings Jeff,
Dang, I didn't realize it but I have been to this very spot! (Should have read this post sooner!) I don't know how much treasure might remain there, but it would not surprise me one bit for more to remain than what Smith claims he removed. (His golden plates, the basis of the Mormon religion.)

I don't wish to attack the Mormon religion, and we have been helped personally by a Mormon church; that being said I have my own theory on just what Smith un-earthed from that bank of the Susquehanna river.

Smith said he dug up several gold plates, which were inscribed with what he termed "modified Egyptian" writing, which he worked to translate, and in part inspiration, he came up with a translation. However, there is reason to believe that what he actually found was not something left by a lost tribe of Israel at all, but something quite different! I believe they may have been gold plates left there by men from ancient Carthage!

Around 510 BC, the ancient city and empire of Carthage sent out two large expeditions to explore in the Atlantic ocean and found colonies. The two expeditions were commanded by two brothers named Hanno and Himilco. Himilco was to explore to the north, including the European coast and British Isles. Hanno was to explore south, along the coast of Africa. According to ancient sources including Diodorus Siculus, Aristotle and others, a part of Hanno's expedition was blown across the Atlantic to a mystery land that the Greeks and Romans were only dimly aware of, but the Carthaginians called Asqa Samal, (Great North) and these same Carthaginians went to great lengths to protect their secret land from which they obtained much gold, timber, fish and gemstones as well as most probably the tobacco and coca products which later were discovered in Egyptian mummies. Aristotle was of the opinion that this secret land was the source of the wealth of Carthage. Anyway, by coincidence, stone monuments inscribed in Punic (the language of Carthage) have been discovered in several places in America, and often read "This Land Claimed By Hanno, Do Not Deface". Stone grave markers inscribed in Punic have been discovered along the Susquehanna river near Harrisburg, and quite a large number too - more than eighty. A metal urn of Carthaginian manufacture was unearthed at the junction of the Chenango and Susquehanna rivers by an archaeological dig, though this is in NY state, it is again along that same river. Carthaginian coins have been found in eleven US states, including Pennsylvania! Is this all coincidence? Even the name of the river, Susquehanna, includes a reference to that famous Punic admiral Hanno! Punic names are found all over America but especially in PA and New England. The finds of Celtic Ogam inscriptions in New England are also a hint of Punic visitors, since Carthage was rather closely allied with the Celts and frequently hired them as mercenaries. (Just compare their religious beliefs to see how close they were allied, the Celtic god Bel equates to Punic Baal, the Celt goddess Tinnith equates to the Punic goddess Tanit, and so on - one study done on the Gaelic language, the language of the Celts, came to the conclusion that it was nothing more than the old Punic, and that the two tongues had a common mother.) Now you may well ask, what if anything does this have to do with the gold plates found by Smith?

Well it is a known fact that the only METAL scrolls ever left buried by ancient Hebrews were made of thin sheets of copper or more rarely, silver. None have ever been found made of gold. However, one ancient power had a habit of recording important events on plates of gold - namely Carthage! We know this because several of their treaties with the Etruscans and Romans (prior to becoming enemies, believe it or not Rome and Carthage were close allies! They even fought together against the Greek invader Pyrrhus!) It would NOT be unusual whatsoever for a Carthaginian admiral, exploring up the Susquehanna river and making friends with local tribes (remember that the Carthaginians were first and foremost businessmen - they sought out new markets and products as a matter of course) to record an important treaty with his new friends and trading partners on plates of gold, which would then have been buried near a monument (now lost, perhaps due to floods or simply sunk into the ground) for posterity. In my opinion, this is what Smith unearthed, as Punic writing is quite strange looking, he may well have mis-identified this strange writing as something of a cross between Egyptian demotic and Hebrew, which it was not. My suspicions are even more reinforced by what Smith did with the plates, or his followers - he got a number of witnesses (all of whom could most likely could not have identified Punic writing) to sign a statement as to what he found, then has it locked away where no one can ever see it. It is today locked in a vault by the Mormon church. I would not wish to incur the fury of the LDS by requesting to see the gold plates found by Smith, but if it were ever offered I would jump at the chance - I can read Punic and could tell in an instant if the plates are what I suspect them to be!

Now this idea of Punic explorers traveling up the Susquehanna river is roundly dismissed by historians who insist that the New World never had ANY contact with the Old World since the Ice Age, despite such obvious similarities as pyramids and so many more evidences of some level of contact taking place (like chickens, cotton, sweet potatoes, maize, linguistic evidence, etc) but to anyone with common sense it is quite logical. Hanno's expedition traveling down the Atlantic coast of Africa, would definitely encounter the currents at the Canary Islands (which were definitely visited by Punic explorers) which will carry a ship right across the Atlantic. It has even happened repeatedly in more modern times, including the Portuguese explorer Pedro Cabral who accidentally found Brazil due to storms while he was sailing down the Atlantic coast of Africa following the exact course of Hanno, or the French captain (name escapes me) who had the same accident but failed to go ashore or would have discovered Brazil before Cabral! Keep in mind that the Carthaginians were the finest seafarers and explorers in the world in their day.

Other skeptics point to the huge boulders near the mouth of the Susquehanna river that blocked entrance very far by the first European explorers; well two points are in order here. First, it is possible that there would have been an un-blocked channel 2500 years ago, past which Carthaginian sailing ships could proceed; once past the boulders, the river is fairly navigable for quite some distance - there were no dams on the river then! Second, Carthaginian sailing ships would absolutely be equipped with smaller boats, which were shallow draft and capable of being rowed by oarsmen, in order to land at various places, as an emergency lifeboat, and for exploring and trading up rivers! So the boulders near the mouth of the Susquehanna would not necessarily have been any major hindrance to Punic explorers and traders.

What would this possibly mean to a treasure hunter? Well for one thing, you stand a chance of finding some VERY ancient coins and relics along the Susquehanna river! There could even be a vast treasure almost un-imaginable in size hidden there somewhere, for when Carthage was finally destroyed by the Romans, they found that the Punic treasury had been emptied! Carthaginian ships had been able to get in and out of the city while it was under seige by the Romans up until Scipio built the mole which closed the port, so they may well have spirited the mass of silver and gold coins to their own private secret land, America! How much treasure could this be? Well the neighboring state of Numidia had several THOUSAND talents of silver when they were conquered by the Romans, and Carthage was the richest city in the world before they were destroyed! A talent of silver weighed close to a hundred pounds, a talent of gold was nearly double that!

A side note is in order here. A Carthaginian man who lived during the time of emperor Nero had a dream in which he was shown the vast, lost treasure of Punic gold was hidden in a cave; he contacted the infamous emperor and got him to back his efforts (financially and manpower) to dig up this vast treasure, which he supposed was somewhere on his farm (outside of Carthage). Despite huge expenditures and Nero having a special ship built to haul all that gold to Rome, nothing was found, and Nero came close to bankrupting the Roman empire! However, what if his dream was true in part, that the treasure was hidden in a cave? Are there any caves along the Susquehanna river, in the secret land of Carthage? You bet! What would an ancient Carthaginian gold coin be worth today? They sell on Ebay for several thousand dollars for ONE!

If the Carthaginians were coming to America to trade for furs, timber etc and prospect for gold and gemstones, how is it possible that contact was lost? One very good reason, Rome utterly destroyed Carthage, burning it to the ground and even (according to some sources) going so far as to salt the earth. Any records of their voyages would almost certainly have been lost, and the men who knew the route and what they could obtain would have been killed or enslaved.

Now you are free to disagree with my theory here, and I apologize if I offended anyone; after all I have never laid eyes on the gold plates of Joseph Smith so probably shouldn't be casting doubt on what they may say. However it is my opinion these were more likely Carthaginian plates, recording treaties with local tribes or laying a legal claim to the lands along the river. For that matter, the name Susquehanna in Punic would mean (pretty closely) "land given by grace" (of the gods, implied). Another coincidence?

I should also admit that I am a writer and have been working on a book on ancient explorers coming to America, for close to seven years now. I contributed an article to an anthology edited by Preston Peet covering this idea of Carthaginians in America, which is on the market now. Anyway Jeff, if you get a chance to go do some THing along the Susquehanna, you may find some really ancient coins or relics!
Oroblanco

"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca, Carthaginian general and shophet

 

[jeff of pa]

Re: Susquehanna County, Pennsylvania Treasure.

WOW !
alot to take in here.
and let me say You Definately came across as an Excellent Writer Oroblanco.
I'll need to read this several times.
I just got up & am in a Race to get through Posts here,
as I have a Appointment to go on a Hunt this Morning.

First before I forget, You say you were on the spot.
Is this Private or Public land ?

And I Live about 30 mile from the Susquehanna, in the center of the state. just North of Harrisburg.

I'll make a more Coherent post later (or at least try to) this evening

Thanks again !
What you Wrote about is Definately something I would Love to try and Prove.
Especially since the Majority, probably Disbelieve.


Jeff

P.S.
Is this anywhere near Spanish Hill ?

 

[Cannonman17]

Re: Susquehanna County, Pennsylvania Treasure.

Very interesting and plausible but I will say what I'm sure others are going to after... let's see the proof. :P I would love to see this proved... I mean them being in the Americas. The idea of gigantic amounts of gold being buried seems far fetched or is it? Even a small cache would be a monumental discovery. It would seem to me that the key here would be the plates originally found... we need to see them!
One thing that seems strange (In spite of a very strong oral tradition amongst the Native population) is the idea that an Indian would be aware of buried treasure from that long ago. At any rate, I look forward to the discussion that is sure to follow!

 

[jeff of pa]

Re: Susquehanna County, Pennsylvania Treasure.

Although I never completly Discount anything.

I think the Most likely Finds would be Drops,
Leave Behinds, and maby Markers.

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Susquehanna County, Pennsylvania Treasure.

Dang, had a fair post to put in here to try to explain some of the evidence and lost it! - I promise I will post it here tonight when I have time. In the meantime, thank you very kindly Jeff for the kind words! I owe you one!
Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Susquehanna County, Pennsylvania Treasure.

Greetings Jeff, Cannonman17 and everyone,
Thanks again for the kind words Jeff, really made my day. I must add that I enjoy your posts too!
I would suggest that if you were going to hunt the Susquehanna, I would look for the natural fords,
where a visiting boat might have to put ashore and perhaps do some trading. The coins and relics are
apt to be deep, but the way river erosion and soil deposition is erratic they may be shallow too.

I can't say that Carthage hid their treasury in the Susquehanna basin, but it IS possible - the Romans
went so far as to send out expeditions into the Sahara desert and even a squadron of ships out to the
Punic colonies along the Atlantic coast of Africa (under the command of the Greek historian Polybius, no less)
and they failed to find it. What better place could they have chosen to hide their treasure from the
Roman enemy but in a land that only they knew about?

Most of the Carthaginian coins found have been singles, though in one case in Alabama, two were found
in the same area along a river. Most of the finds have been along rivers and beaches, though there have been
several finds of caches too that were a ways from a navigable river or stream, such as the stash of Punic gold
coins found in a cave in eastern Tennessee, or several stashes found in Georgia. To try to cover at least
some of the evidence or proof that Carthaginians and their Phoenician fore-fathers were visiting the Americas,
I must ask your patience and forebearance, as this will make for a very lengthy post!

Now as to what proof is there to support this idea? I have already referred to the coins - though modern historians dismiss them as ALL having been dropped in MODERN times, as if lots of people walked around with relatively rare and valuable coins of ancient Carthage in their pockets. If they were referring to Roman bronze
coins, I could agree - they can be bought very cheaply in the un-cleaned state for $1 each or even less,
and are even frequently given to schoolchildren as learning aids or as a keepsake. However we are talking
about coins that are NOT common and certainly not cheap - some of the silver tetradrachms of Carthage found
are sold in the $1500 each range, with the gold coins we are talking thousands of dollars. Gloria Farley
includes a chapter on the coincidence of the coins, it includes several of the Punic coins and some Romans as
well, from her book In Plain Sight, Old World Records in Ancient America, it is online at:
http://phoenicia.org/brazil.html

Then we have the ancient writers. We have almost nothing from the Carthaginians themselves, as the Romans were very thorough in their destruction of their rival, so most of the evidence must come from sources which were in truth enemies of Carthage and had very imperfect understandings of the discoveries made by them. Even so, check out Aristotle's work On Marvelous Things Heard, describes how the Carthaginians discovered what can only be America by accident, and even attempted to found a colony there but later withdrew it by order of the Carthaginian senate; he explained that the senate felt that too many people would move there due to the excellence of the place, and it would be best kept as a safe haven that their people could flee to if some calamity should overtake their homeland; in the event such a disaster DID overtake the city when the Romans destroyed it, but they were unable to escape as the Romans under Scipio had closed off their port entrance with a mole. Don't expect to find this text of Aristotle online though, it is one of those that will not "fit" with the accepted theories!

Then there is the Sicilian Greek historian Diodorus Siculus; his massive work titled Library of History has a much
greater description of the secret land of the Carthaginians and explains how they found it by accident when some
merchant ships sailing down the Atlantic coast of Africa were blown across the ocean to the west. Most of the
description is found in books 2 and 3, which are NOt online anywhere, again this will not fit with the accepted Isolationist theory. And yes, the Isolation idea is still a theory.

Plato includes a remarkable passage in his work Timaeus, which the Atlantis-hunters so frequently overlook it is
amazing - here it is"Many great and wonderful deeds are recorded of your state in our histories. But one of them exceeds all the rest in greatness and valour. For these histories tell of a mighty power which unprovoked made an expedition against the whole of Europe and Asia, and to which your city put an end. This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent. "
Note that Plato describes a vast continent on the other side of the Atlantic, and that this is a true continent - and is exactly what the Americas would seem to be to a ship exploring the coast! The Atlantis-hunters mis-read this to interpret that Atlantis was a continent, which is not what Plato said, he said that was a group of islands, but no matter - Plato has just proven that the ancient WERE aware of the Americas! In fact, the name they called it was "Ogygia".

Plutarch describes the northern route to the Americas used by the Carthaginians too, the same route taken by the Norse many centuries later; it is found in his book Moralia XII, On The Face Of The Moon, and describes the finding of an ancient scroll in the ruins (then) of Carthage including sailing directions to America. Plutarch mentions that some "greeks" had intermarried there and settled there, but the Greeks tended to call anyone they considered civilized as "greek" and thus claim some honors; anyway he also states that a native of this faraway land even sailed across to now-ruined Carthage and remained there a long time, perhaps mourning the loss of their good trading allies.

There are a number of other ancient sources including the fragments of the periplus of Himilco, which states that it takes four months to cross the Atlantic ocean by the northern route - but does not say what is on the other side; however cross to what else BUT America? Aelian has a surprising description of America in his Natural History too, which is clearly somewhat garbled but includes a description of what might well be the Grand Canyon!

With all these ancient sources, I ought to include the mysterious "map on a coin" discovered by professor Mark McMenamin;
he took a great deal of flak over announcing his discovery that on some ancient Punic gold coins, there is what appears to be a map showing parts of the Americas as well as Europe and Africa on the reverse under the famous "horse of Carthage". Ancient coin experts dismiss this as the result of brockage or debris on the dies used to strike the coins, and point to other coins which have blobs on them to prove this - however these other blobs look like blobs, while the map looks very much like a map. It is online and you can judge for yourself at:
http://phoenicia.org/america.html
This site also has an article of my own on this theory (not the map) at:
http://phoenicia.org/carthanewworld.html

The point has been raised in objection to the map on a coin that if the Carthaginians knew of the Americas and were keeping it a secret, why would they depict it on a map on their coins? The answer seems obvious, that the coin makers put the map on the coins and when this was discovered, they were ordered to remove it, and to support this, the maps only appear on a short series of coins and is never repeated afterward.


Then there are the inscriptions left behind. At the site known as Mystery Hill in New Hampshire, not far from Boston Mass, when excavated they discovered an inscription in Punic, dedicating the site to their god Baal. Also in the same area outside Boston, one of the stone steles claiming the lands for Carthage in the name of admiral Hanno was found. Off shore on Block Island is yet another Punic inscription, which states the site is a loading area for their ships! Other stone steles claiming the lands in the name of Hanno have been found in the eastern areas of the Americas including one found near Hawley PA (I made some efforts to locate this stone, but it has apparently been removed.) and even in such far-flung places as Nevada we find a Punic inscription on the shore of a now-dry lake, giving sailing directions! There is also the Pontotoc stone, found in Iowa, which also has Punic religious prayers, the finds of arrowheads in the mid-west with Punic or Phoenician letters on them, and on the other side of the 'big pond' a wooden table was discovered in an ancient Phoenician tomb in what is today Lebanon, which was constructed of the super-hard Brazilian wood known locally as "Pau" or "axe-breaker"! We have already touched on the strange finding of American tobacco (even aa actual tobacco leaf found in the wrappings) of Egyptian mummies, and that they had used American coca in their lifetimes - which is more likely, that Egyptians, who rarely ever sailed beyond the Nile, or the Punic and Phoenicians sailors who were known (and this much admitted even by the skeptical historians) to be bringing ebony and ivory from south Africa, cloves from the Moluccas in extreme SE Asia, cinnamon and other spices from faraway China and India as well as tin and amber from the British Isles and Baltic? There are also the strange stone near Los Lunas, New Mexico which some people believe to be an ancient inscription of the Ten commandments, but can also be read (and better fit, I might add) in Phoenician and describes their visit to this faraway land; a number of stone inscriptions found in Brazil are worthy of note too, you can read about them online at:
http://phoenicia.org/brazil.html
One stone, the Paraiba stone, describes how a Phoenician ship in the time of king Hiram (friend and ally of wise king Solomon) became lost in a storm and ended up stranded in what is today Brazil! This fits pretty closely with what Aristotle and Diodorus said is how the Phoenicians and their offspring the Carthaginians discovered America too!

A side note is in order here - it seems that the Punic name for what is today called Brazil was "Bar-Zil" which means "land of iron" - it is remarkably close to the name Brazil! By comparison, their name for Britain was Bar-itanni, which meant "land of tin" for they traded for the important tin there, required for the production of bronze. Speaking of place-names, there is even a US state with a Punic name! Alaska, which is said in the native tongue to mean "the great land" is remarkably close to the Punic Al-Asqa, which means very much the same thing! Another coincidence?

Then there are the products which "somehow" end up on both sides of the oceans - like cotton for instance. Cotton
originated in the Old World, and yes there is an American type of cotton which is genetically different from Old
World cotton, but we find that Old World cotton was being cultivated by Aztecs, Mayans and Incas when first discovered by Europeans. In fact, on Columbus's very first voyage, on his very first encounter with natives of the Americas, he reports that he was offered spools of cotton as a trade item! How did Americans get Old World cotton before Columbus? Birds?

We have the in-explicable presence of Asiatic chickens found over vast areas of both North and South America when first visited by Europeans. Gavin Menzies claims these are proof of the single visit of Chinese in the year 1421, yet is this logical, that chickens would have spread across the length and breadth of two continents in the span of just 71 years before Columbus arrived? (I am currently reading his book 1421, and have many, many bones to pick with Gavin on his theories.) Well according to historians, chickens were introduced to the west by Alexander the Great when he returned from India, around 322 BC. However then how do we explain the Punic coins struck in one of their cities in Sicily around 480 BC, which clearly depict what can ONLY be a chicken, specifically a rooster? It seems that the Carthaginians were in fact introducing chickens a couple of centuries before Alexander brought some back from India, and dating to a time period very close to that of admiral Hanno! We know that the Carthaginians even had their own special trading marts in India, which is where chickens originated so...it is not a great leap of logic to come to the conclusion that they brought chickens as useful fowl to trade in their new-found markets.

Then there is the case of the "missing" copper in the upper Great Lakes region. There were many ancient mines active in the region and the amount of copper "missing" (un-accountable in the Americas) amounts to BILLIONS of pounds! Conversely, we have the ancient civilizations found around the Mediterranean basin, which used up billions of pounds of bronze (which is some 98 percent copper more or less) yet there are not enough known sources in their "world" to account for it! Is this another "coincidence"? Is it coincidental that when the first Europeans arrived in the Americas, they found that the natives valued copper over gold; consider what a Carthaginian merchant might do to trade with a primitive people, in order to get "worthless" gold from them in return for "valuable" copper! And the Carthaginians were nothing if not shrewd merchants.

I could go on here with this list of commodities that "somehow" made it across the oceans in ancient times, which
coincidentally happen to be the same periods when Carthage and the Phoenicians were at their most powerful zenith. Here are a few you can research on your own:

• Bananas, which are difficult to propogate and cannot survive being transported through cold regions.
• Hemp, a MAJOR item of trade with Carthaginians and Phoenicians as well, found in use by many American cultures
• Sweet potatoes, an American plant, found being cultivated in West Africa, coincidentally the same areas ruled by Carthage
• Maize, found growing in the Philippines
• Corn, the American type, found in ancient India and west Africa, again areas known to have been frequented by Punic merchants
• Peanuts, an American plant, found in an ancient Chinese tomb, coincidentally an area where spices were traded in ancient times
• Bottle gourds, another American plant, found in west Africa, again in the same regions where Carthage ruled

There are more including several types of peppers, but you begin to see the tracks! We have not touched on the
strange coincidence of building pyramids in the Americas. Hmm, the "experts" say this is all coincidence, and
point to the fact that we can show how the Egyptians developed pyramids, beginning with a stone bench known as "moustaba" then stacking them to form a stepped pyramid, finally the true pyramid - well then why is it NOT
possible to show the same progression anywhere in the Americas, they just start building them? Again, we know
that most American pyramids are of the truncated (flat-topped) and step-sided type, well is it another coincidence that we find Carthaginian pyramids in Sardinia and the Canary Islands are truncated and stepped? In fact a truncated pyramid is a part of the symbol of the most important goddess of the Carthaginians, Tanit!

Then there are the "coincidental" practices found in the Americas too like the horrific practice of child and human
sacrifice, found common among Amerindian cultures including Aztecs, Mayans, and Incas, well the Phoenicians and Carthaginians were also infamous for human sacrifice. The wearing of an earring was the mark of a slave among Carthaginians, this was also true among many tribes in the eastern Americas - another coincidence? Many Amerindian tribes used a form of communication known as "smoke signals" to communicate over long distances - this was a Carthaginian practice as well! Another coincidence? Just how many "coincidences" are we supposed to swallow? Many Amerindian tribes would cook and eat their dogs when times were hard - well should we then be surprised to learn that the Carthaginians did the exact same thing?

Indian seer tradition holds that in ancient times, great ships with white sails would come from Britain, Spain and
North Africa to trade in America which they called Turtle Island, obtaining gold here; they had a rule however that
none of the visitors were allowed to remain on the "island" over a winter, the penalty being death! This is
the exact same penalty described by Aristotle for anyone who went to the secret land of Carthage to live, after
the official colony was withdrawn! Spain was ruled by Carthage, and there were Punic colonies in Britain and Ireland for many centuries too! Another "coincidence"?

Does this mean that there were huge fleets of Carthaginian ships traversing the oceans on a daily basis? No, there WAS some level of contact taking place, but it was sporadic and always on a small scale - though Aristotle felt that Carthage owed her wealth to her secret land, the number of ships visiting was probably not even one per year. I have been attacked by skeptics who say that if I claim Carthaginians were visiting America, then it is like saying there were Roman legions marching around in Illinois and the Carthaginians had a secret Moon base! Well there is some evidence that one or more Roman ships may have accidentally reached America, as the mysterious wreck off the beach near Beverly Mass has been disgorging Roman coins onto the shore for many years now. However the presence of Carthaginian ship wrecks is not well known - these include what can only be a Punic ship in the Bay of Jars, Brazil, another found "deeply embedded in sand" in Mexico in the 19th century (this one a warship), another described as "Roman" on the coast of Texas but more likely Punic, one found off the coast of Honduras relatively recently which had some amphorae and anchors recovered which are now in a museum there, and a Phoenician shipwreck which is older (around 1100 BC) found off the coast of Bimini Island by divers looking at the so-called "Bimini Road" and seeking Atlantis. This last wreck was examined by Yale professor J. Manson Valentine and was mentioned on TV in the old series with Leonard Nimoy as host, In Search Of, some years back.

So how much "proof" do we need? We actually have more proof that Carthaginians and Phoenicians were visiting America than we have of many known and accepted explorers,including Columbus! We are only scratching the surface here, I could bore you to death with many more pages of evidence but I fear I may have already tried your patience over-much. I apologize for such a lengthy post here but wanted to at least try to cover some of the interesting points - believe it or not there are many more! If you care to read more on this type of theory, I would suggest America BC and Saga America by the late Dr. Barry Fell (he has been widely attacked for his errors in translating many inscriptions, for instance using an Arabic dictionary to try to read Punic, when he would have been better served to use a Hebrew dictionary which is a much more closely related language) the book mentioned above by Gloria Farley which includes many illustrations of inscriptions she discovered in the midwest, (In Plain Sight, Old World Records in Ancient America) and if you like far-out theories the book Underground, the Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations &c edited by Preston Peet, my own contribution to this work is titled The Secret Land and covers much of what I have already said here but also includes articles by famous authors including Erik von Daniken, Andrew Collins, Robert Shoch, Graham Hancock and many
more. The book I have been working on for close to seven years now is nearing completion and I would be happy to let you know when it is released, it includes chapters not only on Carthaginian visitors but also Hebrews, Egyptians, Celts, Norse, Welsh, Irish, Scots and Chinese in ancient times. America truly is a "melting pot" and source of refuge, and apparently ALWAYS has been!

Thank you for your time, shouldn't have gotten me started on this as I always get carried away! I hope you guys have a great day, you certainly made mine.
your friend,
Oroblanco - Roy A. Decker

"I have seen, in my lifetime, many an old fool; but this one tops them all!" --Hannibal Barca

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Susquehanna County, Pennsylvania Treasure.

PS - almost forgot, the spot is relatively easy to find Jeff, as you drive along the river road (it is paved)
from Susquehanna (on the north bank of the river) there is even a historical marker on the very spot where
Smith dug up his gold plates. That spot where the historical marker is ON might be public land, but I believe the spot where he dug is all private land. I never took the opportunity to try my luck detecting there, but would bet that the landowners will grant you permission - most of the folks around there are pretty nice people.

Heck if you live north of Harrisburg, you are probably better off searching the river area right close to home! For
in fact that is where some eighty plus stone grave markers were discovered, inscribed in Punic and Iberian punic. They either had some kind of settlement along the river there, or had a number of deaths perhaps due to
a battle or some epidemic.

If you should be lucky enough to find some Punic coins or relics (spearheads, arrowheads, jewelry etc) I would
sure appreciate it if you would send me some photos - I am always looking for more photos for the book and
would gladly credit the photos to you. I also collect Punic coins and if you care to sell any, let me know? I
don't often have the money to buy them, but the bronze coins are generally not too expensive - the silver and
gold are just too much money for me. Thanks again,
Oroblanco

 

[jeff of pa]

Re: Susquehanna County, Pennsylvania Treasure.

Thanks ORO

and again Very intresting post.

there are Several places along the Susquehanna, where
Indian Traders are known to have set up as recent as the early 1700's From Harrisburg to Sunbury* (*then known as Shamokin)
These places Most certainly would have been used for many years before, I'm sure.
In Upper Paxton Twp. I read of a Stone Age Cemetery on a Farm.
these people were buried with Large stones place on top of the graves,
supposedly to deter animals. There were Digs done there, but little was mentioned on it, other then the were stone age.
I have also read of supposed Finds of Coin caches of Ancient
coins with unknown markings in PA & NY in the past.
I think in Treasure Location Books & Magazines.

Who Knows, Maby with a little Patience, & research, I can get lucky.

I'll let you know if I do.

Thanks Again !
Jeff

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: Susquehanna County, Pennsylvania Treasure.

DAMN! Oro Blanco, you "are" good, extremely impressive. If I manage to open one of theTayopa depositories I will buy you some Gold and silver Carthagenian coins, providing you send me an autographed copy of your book, which I will purchase naturally.

Taypa required far less data to find.

Tropical Tramp

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Susquehanna County, Pennsylvania Treasure.

Hello again,
Gosh you are going to make me blush! Thanks good buddy Jose, you know sometimes a kind word goes a long ways. I don’t believe for a moment though, that I have put more work into this book project than you put in to find Tayopa – I’ve seen that country and even without having to pore through ancient Spanish and Mexican archives, just hiking IN is a terrific test of your mettle! I do hope (and honestly believe that you will succeed) in getting Tayopa up and running again, and soon too! I will send you a copy of the book too, gratis.

A real writer ought to have a habit of going over his own writing to correct his mistakes, and I see that I missed a number of them above (like “could probably could” and the wrong link for that excerpt from Gloria Farley’s book) so will try to make up for the errors here.

Here is the correct link to that excerpt on the finding of ancient coins in America:
http://www2.privatei.com/~bartjean/chap11.htm

More on ancient coins found in America:
http://www.econ.ohio-state.edu/jhm/arch/coins/coins.htm

The mysterious Los Lunas Dekalogue:
http://www.culdee.org/colorado/decalogue.html

Far out there, for those of that ilk, Aliens using Phoenician language?:
(excerpt)
“But why would extraterrestrials speak and write like Phoenician, Hebrew or Egyptian? Maybe because it's the language of the gods, who introduced it on Earth.”
From http://www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/roswell.html
(That one will fit with those secret Moon bases heh hehe)

You know too Jose’ you might just turn up some of those coins in your own neighborhood! I am not aware of any that have been found in your area (yet) but there is reason to think they very well could be – for there are pyramids, ruins etc of ancient cultures which very well may have had contact. One such place is Tullum, which in the Mayan language means “walled” city, but the original name (before the arrival of the Spaniards) was Zama, which means the “city of the sunrise”. Hmm, is it another coincidence that the famous Carthaginian general Hannibal Barca was finally defeated by the Romans in a terrific battle near the Punic city of Zama, not far from Carthage? Can you guess what the name Zama means in Punic? Here are a couple of sites with decent photos:
http://members.aol.com/awcalzada/tulum.html
http://www.locogringo.com/past_spotlights/aug2002.html


Now for more clues – in Mayan Zama in Yucatan, there stands one of the most enigmatic ruins in all of the Americas, a grand –lighthouse-!!! Now you don’t build a great lighthouse, unless it is to help ships out on the sea traveling at night. Who would be sailing around far out to sea, in the dark, off of Yucatan so many centuries before Columbus? Were they just a bit too early in expecting tourists? Don’t forget that a Carthaginian warship (a trireme or quadrireme) was dug out of the sands on the shores of Mexico too. The names of places tend to last even long beyond the people who named them in the first place, which helps explain the many Punic, Phoenician and Celtic names we find in America, but some even more striking are found in Mexico – for instance, have you ever heard of the famous ancient city, so beautiful with its floating gardens, Xochimilco? This name contains the FULL name of the –other- Carthaginian admiral sent out to explore in the Atlantic, Himilco. Even the fact that Xochimilco is pronounced with a hard “CH” sound is perfectly in tune with the way a Punic speaker would pronounce a hard “H” as in the first letter of Himilco. I should add here that the Carthaginians were also renowned agriculturalists in their time, Mago, (thought by some to be the same as the brother of Hannibal by that name) wrote a series of books on agriculture which the Romans felt were so important that they ordered them translated. I only mention this because there are other clues that Punic and Phoenician visitors left behind – some experts say that where ever you find the practice of terracing, so useful for farming in steep mountain areas, the Phoenicians had been there; the Greeks used to say that wherever you found date palm trees, that was a Punic calling card, and the palm was so important to Carthaginians that they are frequently depicted on their coins. It was also a play on words, as the Greek word for palm tree “Phoinix” was so close to their word for Punic “Phoinike” that the Carthaginians seem to have incorporated it into the coins they struck for paying Greek mercenary soldiers and the practice stuck. Another calling card of the Carthaginians is the Pomegranate, which they introduced about everywhere they traveled, and today is the most widely recognized fruit in the world – well the very name “Pomegranate” is Latin for “Punic Apple”! Anyway you never know where you will find their “tracks” if you pause to look.

I have to admit too that I underestimated how long I have been working on this, in truth it is over eight years. You know people talk about becoming obsessed with something, well this book started out to be an idea for an article, when I heard about several fellows who had found Carthaginian coins in Georgia and Alabama. Dang if more and more evidence kept turning up, seemingly every day if one cared to look! For a brief time I even was conceited enough to think that I was the first to come up with the theory - NOT – even Captain John Smith, of Pocahontas fame, wrote “Ye Spanyards say that Hanno, a prince of Carthage was the first to discover this land, and Columbus the next.” (from A General Description of Virginia) and early Spanish explorers were convinced that Peru was none other than the famous Ophir of the bible. (there is a fair case for this too, but would really bore you to death.) This danged book project has sure kept me from contributing too many articles to the magazines I love; especially the last few years, but I have decided I will do my best to “keep a hand in” and will have a couple of MSS to send in to them soon.

I don’t know why so many historians cannot make the connection, though they will admit that the Carthaginians and Phoenicians (as well as Greeks, Egyptians and even Romans) were sending out ships on missions of exploration into the Atlantic and Indian oceans, were calling at all the “known” ports in the world, bringing the goods that helped to make life better from China, SE Asia, India and Africa yet will not concede that they made it across the Atlantic. So many of their claims have been roundly proven wrong it is pathetic – like the old saw that the ancients “always had to sail close in to shore” – which any mariner can tell you is the very WORST place to sail because it is full of rocks, reefs and dangerous currents there! The recent finds by Robert Ballard and others of ancient shipwrecks (and including Phoenician and Punic) far out in the open seas proves they were traveling there. The safest, surest and fastest routes were across the open seas, and the magnetic compass can be replaced by the very ancient Sun compass, which Phoenicians called the Gnomon. At night they were able to navigate by the stars, in fact the North Star, the most important star in the Northern hemisphere for mariners, was called the "Punic star" by the Greeks and Romans. There is good evidence they knew of the Southern Cross in the southern hemisphere too. They may well have had the magnetic compass as well! In the Phoenician history of Sanchoniathon, he tells of “mysterious stones” that “moved as if possessing life” and were of assistance in navigation – they were kept in a special “house”, which I will not name here as it is one of my best little secrets in the book.

Good luck and good hunting to you Jeff, that area has a LOT of history and you are sure to make some great finds, whether they are ancient or only a couple hundred years old.

Oh well guess I better get off my soapbox here, thanks again for the kind words and I hope you have a great day!
Your friend,
Roy – Oroblanco

“From the moment I picked your book up until I laid it down I was convulsed with laughter. Someday I intend reading it”. –Groucho Marx

 

[Cannonman17]

Re: Susquehanna County, Pennsylvania Treasure.

Good reading and too many viable arguments to discount. Keep in mind this is coming from a "traditionally" trained anthropologist. I've often wondered about how many other "contacts" the new world had in pre-history or early history. I've always argued against the idea that any of them settled here because of the lack of evidence for it but as for visiting/trading/exploring.....hmmm. I think that the most compelling evidence there is would be the tobacco and cocoa found in Egypt. Even traditional archaeologist can't argue with the findings nor can they explain them. Some of the "evidence" such as pyramid building could be discounted because it is all together quite possible to have the same type of technology develop in different areas around the same time period. To argue the individual points like this would be fruitless at this point though- it's the big picture we need to look at. I think that eventually some of things you point out could be/ will be dismissed as having had been of aboriginal origination but some of the other points on the other hand I think will only become more concrete. I applaud your depth of dedication and research regardless of the outcome. I fear that you face a steep uphill battle to convice the pros though.. perhaps the newer generation of anthropologist/historians/archaeologists and whoever else will have a more open mind.. as new sites and finds are made, and as the evidence mounts, they will have no choice but to consider it. I was also thinking that your proposed contact period coincides with some interesting things from the archaeological record of N. America, first and foremost of which would be the "invention" of the bow and arrow. Perhaps it was brought here and not invented after all...just another point to ponder. Also, this may be the same time period that many of the burial mounds were constructed- that by itself may be nothing but consider this: many of the mounds from roughly this time period or a little after have hundreds of individuals buried in them, in some cases almost as if there had been a mass die off. If the time frame fit (and I am going completely off the top of my head here without reference) the mass burials could be the result of a new disease being introduced? It's widely accepted by even traditional archaeologists that the native population had been higher than it was at the time of contact with Columbus. I think that you may well be able to gain some more acceptance of your ideas if what you're saying tied in with some of the traditional thinking, explaining some of the unknowns. As for the linguistical evidence..I don't think it supports the idea of Western contact but I wouldn't expect it to either. I wouldn't expect to find Western linguistical features in the native languages unless there had been a sustained settlement. All the languages of the new world can be traced to three distinct branches, not sure about the spelling on these but: Algonquin, siouxian, and inuit. This suggests that there may have been three distinct groups and possibly times of migration to the new world but all of the three branches appear to be of Asian origin. Anyways.... I very much look forward to hearing more of what you have to say and/or reading the book. I sure hope to see some solid evidence found here in N. America in my lifetime- besides the coins that is

 

[EDDE]

Re: Susquehanna County, Pennsylvania Treasure.

wow jeff good reading :P

 

[jeff of pa]

Re: Susquehanna County, Pennsylvania Treasure.

wow jeff good reading :P

Yes, I'm Glad Oroblanco Posted.

This Post sat since May, with no responses.

I'm finding this Very Intresting.

Not to mention it made me Re-think some of the find posts,
and "what is it" posts lately of Possable Greek Coins.

I always Dismissed them as Kids drops of Collected coins,
But, I'll look at them Different from now on

 

[EDDE]

Re: Susquehanna County, Pennsylvania Treasure.

ditto
i agree
im rethinking my thought process and maybe even thinking about much older stuff
making barbers and seated coins look like zinc pennies (age wise)

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Susquehanna County, Pennsylvania Treasure.

Greetings Jeff, Cannonman Jose and everyone,
If I am reading your post correctly Cannonman, I will take that as a solid “maybe” from you; in my own view, getting a maybe from a trained anthropologist is quite a feather for me, especially when I have not completely laid out the case. I have no sheepskins hanging on the wall (degrees) to make my presentation of the theory any more convincing or authoritative, like some of the authors out there, and find I am not in agreement with many of the fellow “Diffusionists” (like Graham Hancock and others who are so popular) on many grounds.

Since you are a trained anthropologist, perhaps you can answer a riddle that has had me stumped for some time now. For if ancient coins are found in Europe, Africa or Asia, they are taken as solid proof (by archaeologists and historians) of contact and trade with the entity or state which produced the coins, and rightfully so. When the very same coins are found in the Americas, they are instantly dismissed as either a hoax or having been dropped there in modern times. This smacks of unreasonable bias; in some cases it is strikingly so – take for instance the case of a Roman coin found deeply buried in an Indian mound near the town of Round Rock, Texas. The coin was even en-twined beneath deep roots of a centuries-old oak tree. Even a few of the experts had to say this was no hoax or modern loss, yet officially it is dismissed as such. Again, coincidentally, this is not far from where the “Roman” ship was discovered sunk offshore, as well as a “Roman” bridge found by construction workers. I put “Roman” in quotes for a reason here, because I am convinced that the majority of people could not differentiate between Roman and Punic or even Greek. (More on “Romans” in Texas online at
http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf090/sf090a02.htm


I would also like to complain a bit too, about what I term “professional resistance” to even examine the evidence for contact in ancient times. Let me give you ONE example of what I have run into. I discovered a report of the finding of a very peculiar stone tomb in Maine, age unknown but apparently ancient, in which was found a teardrop shaped stone amulet. On the amulet was a figure of a man wearing a crested helmet and armor, missing a leg. Strange letters were inscribed below the man figure and on the reverse. At the time I had not yet learned how to read Punic, (which is so similar to Phoenician, the mother tongue) so obtained photos of both sides of the mystery amulet and sent them to an expert in epigraphy (reading inscriptions) who worked at a major university in Ohio. The reason I sent them there was that when I asked a Penn State professor and explained where it was found, he refused even to look at it. So I sent the photos to the expert without mentioning where they had been found and asked if he could identify what sort of writing it was, perhaps even translate it. He wrote back shortly afterwards and said that yes it was quite easy to identify the writing, it was either VERY early Greek or Phoenician, and it said “Queen of the Night” or “Goddess of the Night”, and asked where this amulet had been found? I replied to him that it was found in the peculiar stone tomb in Maine (again, coincidentally not far from where ancient Iberian amphora jars were found offshore by divers) and he wrote back to me a very angry letter, telling me NOT to use his name in any way or manner related to this stone amulet, that I did not have his permission to even name him as having had a look at it! So I cannot name him, and can read the amulet myself and found that it can better be read as “To befit son and his military detachment” and was most likely a heart-felt grave offering for the loss of a son who was a leader of a minor military detachment. This is only one example of many such refusals I have run into.

As you know, Punic, Phoenician and ancient Hebrew writing uses letters that are only consonants, almost a form of short-hand, so it is frequently possible to read a set of inscriptions in more than one way, the reader has to try to decide which is the best fit often based on outside factors like where the inscription is found.

In a way, I can understand this professional resistance to even be associated with a study of evidence of ancient contact, which goes against the accepted dogma of history. There is a fear of ridicule by peers, the certainty that if you were to agree that there was contact in ancient times that you would face attacks by hoards of fellow professors, of whom many have more education and respect; one might even destroy a promising career to go against dogma and lose his position and employment. It takes more courage for a person in that kind of position, which took years of training and commitment to achieve, to put it all on the line just to study evidence that goes against everything he or she has been taught. For a guy like me, who has already been labeled as being a member of the Tinfoil Hat Brigade, I risk no loss of career, respect or position. Perhaps this is the only way the theory can be put forward. If it meant putting my career and income in jeopardy to study artifacts that do not fit with accepted dogma, I too might refuse to even consider it.

Then there is the problem of the muddying of the waters. Well-meaning theorists put forward some of the most far-fetched and sometimes downright ridiculous ideas to try to explain things like the presence of pyramids, often turning to having Aliens from space who magically constructed the giant buildings. Worse, are the deliberate hoaxes like the so-called Cardiff Giant, a fake statue in NY state with “Phoenician” writing all over it, which was done by a farmer who hired a sculptor to make a fool of his local pastor. We don’t have to reach for Alien brothers to realize that our ancient ancestors were surprisingly capable, ingenious and clever. We frequently forget, in our modern bias that we are the most advanced civilization ever to exist on earth, that our ancient ancestors of 2000, 3000 and even 10,000 years ago had the very same size brains that we have today, with the same intellect and capacity for reasoning as we possess, and had made a surprising number of scientific advances that were later lost in the Dark Ages. The ancient Greeks, Romans and Carthaginians were well aware that the world is spherical in nature, for just one example, Eratosthenes (276 BC - 194 BC) calculated the diameter of the earth by the simple tool of observing the length of shadows cast by uprights of known length, arriving at a figure surprisingly close to the true diameter! They had surprisingly advanced medicine, even literacy rates that are not equaled in many places in the world even today. It is perhaps our own modern conceit that forces some theorists to turn to Aliens to explain such massive constructions as the great pyramid, since they cannot believe that men living thousands of years ago would be capable of it. There are more of these hoaxes and mis-identified evidences than I would like too, like the really ridiculous theories propounded by the silly “relics” supposedly discovered in “Burrows Cave” in the Midwest, which are really the work of a nineteenth-century religious cult, but again some well-intentioned (if poorly informed) theorists have sited these artifacts as proof of Egyptian, Roman, Hebrew and other ancient visitors without bothering to researching the matter too thoroughly.

In addition, I have left out some of the important evidences, in a rather poor effort at trying to present the basis of the theory in an abbreviated form so as not to test your patience with me beyond the limits. Here are a few of the other bits of evidence:

Ancient Mayans used Tyrian purple dye in the manufacture of their cloth. Tyrian purple dye is made from a “sweat” gland found on sea snails of a particular species, Purpura. Even the experts admit that it is unlikely in the EXTREME that the ancient Mayans invented the dye independently, as the process of extraction is quite complex, not to mention a dirty and extremely smelly job. This world famous dye is called Tyrian purple because it was invented in the Phoenician city of Tyre, the home of king Hiram famous in the Old Testament as friend and ally of king David and king Solomon. If we were not automatically trained to dismiss all idea that any kind of contact took place between the New World and the Old, this would be a rather damning piece of evidence that Phoenicians had been in contact, and friendly contact at that, with the ancient Mayans.

Then there is the issue of the pyramids. Many of my fellow “diffusionists” (theorists who hold that the Americas were visited by other cultures in ancient times) come to the mistaken conclusion that this is PROOF that the pyramids in the Americas were, by default, constructed by none other than the Egyptians! They even point to the fact that the ancient Mayans and Toltecs used a form of writing known as hieroglyphics, and we all know that the ancient Egyptians wrote in hieroglyphics. However, the construction methods used to build the Egyptian pyramids is far different from those of the Americas. A point is in order here. Most of the pyramids in Central America are built by the method of first constructing stone walls, forming a large enclosed square, then filling the space in the square with rubble. A second stone wall is then built atop the new platform, and the hollow thus created filled in, the process repeated until the desired height is accomplished; many of these pyramids were continually added on to for centuries. Should we then be surprised to find the Punic pyramids in the Canary islands and Sardinia are constructed by the exact same methods? Then there is the question of the hieroglyphics – well the Egypt-origin theorists fail to note that the Mayan and Toltec hieroglyphics are far different from Egyptian, with no real similarities other than they ARE heiroglyphics. There should be no question that the Amerindian cultures invented their own hieroglyphic system of writing, completely independently of Egypt. Does the fact that Punic pyramids are so similar to American types, then mean conclusively that Phoenicians must have built the American pyramids? That is assuming too much – what it DOES point to is that the IDEA of building pyramids got transmitted across the oceans, and we have a strong set of suspects as the agents of that transmission in the Phoenicians and their Carthaginian offspring.

The linguistic evidence is yet another issue. True, many language experts do group all of the Amerindian languages into three main categories or families, and all point to Asiatic origins. I am not making a claim that is in opposition to this position – far from it. What I am claiming is that “loan words” ARE found in the Amerindian languages, that point to Semitic contacts – (Carthaginians and Phoenicians are considered members of the Semitic family of peoples, as well as Hebrews). The phenomenon of people “borrowing” foreign words due to contact with foreign peoples is a habit that continues to occur even today. The presence of a large number of “loan” words is generally taken as a strong indication of a major level of contact, whether the contact be friendly or conflict seems to make little difference though friendly contact generally results in a greater number of loan words. I don’t have the studies on hand at the moment (they are in my files, which are still packed since we moved some ten months ago) but there have been studies done of Amerindian languages which show a surprising number of Semitic loan words present, particularly in Mayan language for one important example but also found in tribes located some distance from the coast today. You are free to dismiss the linguistic evidence out of hand, it is not in any case conclusive proof of contact and could be explained as a series of coincidences, at best it is only a strong suggestion of contact which can support the theory. After all, no Amerindian tribe has ever been discovered that was speaking a dialect of Phoenician.

On the other hand, there is good reason to believe that not ALL of the Amerindians must trace their ancestry to eastern Asia and the Bering Straits "land bridge". Recent DNA studies on Amerindians identified a group they refer to as Haplotype X, which is a type of DNA that can be traced to Europe and NOT to Asia. The percentage of Amerindians who possess this clearly European heritage is relatively small, (less than ten percent) but the presence of more than a single individual with European DNA is concrete evidence that not ALL Amerindians came to America from East Asia. Some, at least, had to come from Europe.

For a site which is perhaps one of the strongest evidences of ancient visitors to America, do check out Mystery Hill in NH. The architecture there, while possibly compromised by modern excavators trying to re-construct what they expected the ruins to be, is quite alien (not the little green men type) to the region. When compared to similar structures in Malta (again, once an important part of the Punic empire) and Tunisia (heartland of Carthage) the similarities are striking. It also closely resembles stone structures found in Portugal and the British isles, not to keep repeating this but again areas which were important to the Carthaginians and to a lesser degree the Phoenicians. The presence of the mysterious “beehive” underground stone rooms in the same region, extending into upstate NY is also strikingly similar to Phoenician tombs in North Africa. (Not, however, similar to the unique “Tower” tombs constructed by very wealthy Punic merchants. Only a handful of these exist.) more online in many sites, here is a sample
http://www.crystalinks.com/mysteryhill.html


We ought to include a look at the Mayan numeric system as well, and compare it to the Punic numeric system, which shows similarities. Compare the Phoenician:
http://www.phoenicia.org/imgs/phoenumbering.jpg
to the Mayan, and look especially at the lower numbers 1 to 10 in both.
http://www.hanksville.org/yucatan/mayamath.html
Does this mean that the Phoenicians taught the Mayans? No, in fact it would look like they might have adopted some elements of their system FROM the Mayans.

I also failed to mention one of the Amerindian cultures that has striking evidence of contact with Semitic peoples, the Moche of Peru. One look at their effigy mugs, which are great works of art – and you are instantly reminded of ancient Semites. A number of the Moche effigy mugs also depict men with mustaches and beards, and we know that Amerindian peoples rarely have much in the way of facial hair. Should we again be surprised to find that the Moche were yet another culture that perpetrated human sacrifice, sometimes on a shocking scale? Here is one example, note the very NON-Amerindian type of head-dress, which would not look at all out of place if it were in the Middle East or North Africa:
http://www.mintmuseum.org/collections_detail.php?collection_id=2&item_id=71

The idea of stories being carried down by Amerindians over the centuries has been touched on – well here again we find Amerindian cultures with myths of “gods” who had arrived in America from across the seas, often depicted as white men with beards and wearing flowing robes; these “god” visitors instructed the local people in many of the arts of civilization, and some had left with a promise to one day return – this was rather disastrous for the Aztecs, who believed the Spanish conquistador Cortez was none other than their own god Quetzalcoatl, returning as promised and coincidentally at the time prophesied. Perhaps in some important ways, it was indeed the return of Quetzalcoatl, the god who did not approve of human sacrifice, which Cortez happily ended.

Another example is the Mayan culture hero Votan. Excerpt: “Votan was a mythical culture hero who led an expedition that sailed to the Americas and taught the basics of government, dividing up the lands into provinces. He came from a land called Valum-Chivim, which was identified by Friar Ramon de Ordonez y Aguilar (canon of Ciudad-Real in Chiapas, Mexico), as Israel. On the way to America, Votan stayed at a place called Valum Votan, which Ordonez identified as Cuba.” See Gateway to Atlantis, Andrew Collins, p.334 – 347 I would propose that Friar Ramon was close in his identification of the location of Valum-Chivim, but perhaps should have looked a bit farther north to Phoenicia.

I would like to add that what contact was taking place between Carthaginians and native peoples was likely to be not only infrequent, and on no great scale, but could have involved very little actual interaction between them. We find a description in Herodotus of how Carthaginian traders could do business even with people they could not come into contact with:

The Carthaginians also relate the following. There is a country in Libya, and a nation, beyond the Pillars of Heracles, which they are wont to visit. There they no sooner arrive but immediately unload their wares. Having disposed them after an orderly fashion along the beach, they leave them, and, returning aboard their ships, raise a great smoke. The natives, when they see the smoke, come down to the shore, and, laying out to view so much gold as they think the worth of the wares, withdraw to a distance. The Carthaginians upon this come ashore and look. If they think the gold enough, they take it and go their way. But if it does not seem to them sufficient, they go aboard ship once more, and wait patiently. Then the others approach and add to their gold, till the Carthaginians are content. Neither party deals unfairly by the other; for they themselves never touch the gold till it comes up to the worth of their goods, nor do the natives ever carry off the goods till the gold is taken away.

(from Herodotus The Histories, Book IV chap. 196
I would like to add here that some Greeks, like most Norse, believed the Americas to be somehow a part or extension of Africa! Note also the reference to the use of smoke signals used to alert the natives of the arrival of Punic traders, and the fact that they were doing business with perfect honesty. Punic merchants are depicted by most Greek and Roman historians as crafty and un-trustworthy, yet common sense would tell you that NO merchant could remain in business very long if he acted with bad faith as a matter of course. Contact with native peoples in this manner, with little interaction between the two parties, would leave little for us to find so many centuries later. Fortunately there is a very good amount of evidence that they had much more interaction with other tribes.

Cannonman you have brought up one of the cultures that I feel are among those that had at least SOME contact with visitors from across the seas – the mysterious Mound Builders. It is very strange indeed that they have such mass graves, and that they appear to date to a very curious period of time. Some of the most intriguing artifacts have been recovered from these (sometimes impressive) mounds, like the Bat Creek stone with its mysterious inscription, the previously mentioned Pontotoc stele (with clear Punic writing) and the Newark Ohio stone. The idea that diseases have been transmitted both to and from the Americas well before Columbus is one that bears much more scrutiny.

The current state of archaeological study in American sites is almost a farce. Out of fear of being politically-incorrect, many interesting sites are deliberately ignored and kept under wraps, important finds are whisked away to be “repatriated” to Amerindian tribes as “ancestors” even when they are clearly NOT Mongolid Asiatic but Caucasoid Asiatic. I don’t wish to insult anyone here but the relatively recent classification of what was formerly called Mongoloid as “Asiatic” is misleading, especially since the Caucasiod also originates in Asia, not Europe. I ran across a dig in Ohio being done by the Smithsonian Institute that was deliberately shut down, when they KNEW they were about to uncover some human remains of great antiquity, and in their own words, the reason given was “they knew that the human remains would be of the wrong race.” I fail to see why we must persist in the idea that Amerindians had no contact with peoples from across the oceans, as if that would be some kind of an insult to them, far from it – in fact this only proves they have a much richer and more complex history than they have been given credit! I can site a number of such politically-incorrect finds as Kennewick man (found in a river in Oregon, nearly 10,000 years old and with strong Caucasoid features) and the Spirit Cave mummies found in Nevada, again with the wrong racial characteristics. In order to preserve the politically-correct idea that all Amerindians came from east Asia via the Bering “land bridge” (an idea which is in itself very questionable, as the land bridge would almost certainly have been covered in thick glaciers and even if not covered with ice would have been cut through by numerous glacial rivers, which would present a terrific obstacle to crossings every few miles!) and in a way are actually insulting the very Amerindians as if they were near-cave people living without any contact with the outside world.

Each of the many bits of evidence, which is far too much to even list here (it would fill a book by itself, literally) even including the linguistic “coincidences”, if taken individually could be readily dismissed as nothing more than coincidences. However if we can simply refuse to have the “knee-jerk” reaction that there can be NO evidence of any contact taking place between the Old world and the New in ancient times, a belief that is instilled in us from our early childhood – and look at the evidence with an open mind, we may well come to the opposite conclusion; namely that contacts DID take place, not on a grand scale by any means and little if any colonization (remember, even the one colony attempted by Carthage was withdrawn later) involved, but definitely involving trade and exploration, most likely with the driving force being profit – as Punic and Phoenician explorers were far more interested in profit than in conquest or colonization, which contact was later interrupted permanently due to Roman conquest.

If you are interested in the theory of ancient contact, don’t take my word for it – do some research on your own and come to your own conclusions. Don’t take the “experts” word as the final authority either, they have been proven wrong time and again – all we need for one example is the case of Troy and Albert Schliemann. Troy was dismissed as a “myth” and Schliemann as a dreamer or fool, yet by simply following the ancient descriptions he found in Homer’s Iliad, he was able to find the famous city and prove the “experts” all wrong. He did actually dig too deep, beyond the layer of ruins that was the Troy of Homer, but he got a great deal correct, later going on to locate Mycenae, the home of Agamemnon.

Thank you guys for the interest and kind words, I hope I have not tested your patience beyond the limits. What has all this to do with Joseph Smith and his gold plates, the beginning of the thread? Only that the possibility exists that the plates he discovered and translated into the book of Mormon were not a work of translation so much as inspiration, they could be Punic treaties and this implies the possibility of some VERY interesting finds to be made there! I could go on here Jeff but you have already found that the area has much more history to discover, reaching well into the Stone Age. My best friend once found a solid silver Indian bracelet that weighed nearly three ounces while picking stones out of a field that had been plowed not far from the Susquehanna river, it was in nearly perfect condition and the experts at the local college said that it predated Columbus by at least a thousand years. You never know just what you will find!

Your friend,
Roy – Oroblanco

PS Dekalb and Jeff, keep me in mind if you find any ancient coins? I am very interested in such finds, as you can tell!

 

[Cannonman17]

Re: Susquehanna County, Pennsylvania Treasure.

Again, good reading. Just keep in mind here that I was trained in a traditional sense but I don't work in the field at all anymore and while you have obviously spent a great deal of time researching this subject in depth I'm just throwing some stuff out there off the top of my head so bare with me.

Something about this thread that makes me laugh to myself is the fact that I actually have to "fight" myself with many of the ideas put forth. I find myself regurgitating chapters upon chapters of what was long forgotten generic "traditional" teachings. While I find many of your arguments, as said before, viable I also like to proceed with caution. It's easy to get caught up in anomalies and keeping a critical eye is important.

Like you, I have nothing to lose by entertaining these ideas. I'm no longer "in the field" so to speak and never will be again. No reputation to worry about, no job to worry about etc. You are 100% correct as to your reasoning in why the professionals don't want to get involved or even look at this though. If you or anybody has a steady, good paying, and might I add, EASY job- would you want to throw it out the window? For reasons I don't understand at all, straying even a little from the accepted norms in the established train of thought in Archaeology is career suicide. Anyways... enough about that!

Okay, one last thing before I dive into this: I don't have any sheepskins hanging on the wall either, I took all the classes needed for a major in anthropology with an emphasis in archaeology as well as a couple of credits towards a masters but due to budget cut backs at the time the major was suspended or cut from the college and they told me I was a semester too late... all I would ever be given by them was a minor on paper. I changed majors to geography but was never really into it the same- after six years I dropped out of school with one math class left between myself and graduation. I am only recently checking into going back to finish up with the last class- maybe I'll get that sheepskin, but not yet.. By the way, I am also of the opinion that they mean NOTHING. Sure, there are some really brilliant professors out there but there are some brilliant common folk out there too- some without so much as a H.S. diploma. I have never and will never judge a person by what's on the wall. Okay, Now... :P

Don't dismiss all the traditional and diffusionist's views- I REALLY believe that you will find a lot of it will tie in very neatly with what you are doing. Far too often we are give the a b or c as a choice when in fact it was a combination of all of them.

Ancient coins in the Americas.... I don't know. How's that? Ancient coins being found in mounds... I don't know anything about that- that's not something that "they" teach you in school. In fact I've never heard of it to tell you the truth until now. Six years in college and I don't recall ever reading about a single site with ancient coins found or excavated- if you have some online references to them that I could read about I would be happy! Sites in which the coins were excavated vs. surface finds would be much better but I'll read whatever you have. In spite of not being familiar with these things I have a couple of points to make: Some may be piltdown man cases if you know what I mean. I said SOME- settle down. Ones that have been professionally excavated and have no traditional explanations: back to do you want to lose your comfortable chair in your comfortable office overlooking your comfortable car that you drive back and forth from your comfortable home? Probably another case of...Ummmm... somebody must have put that there. As a side note to the topic of ancient coins- I did a lot of artifact restoration at the University while I was there, even taught a class on it. I had regular access to all the labs and storage areas and probably looked at or even studied just about every artifact in the place to some degree at one point or another. I do recall something that would interest you a great deal- they had a mall number of ancient coins. Bronze if I remember right, probably no more than five or six but to be honest I just don't recall anymore. I don't think that I ever even asked where they had come from and if I did I don't know what their reply was. I know they weren't associated with any site- just loose in a drawer. Kind of makes me wonder where they came from now! I do believe they were Roman but at the time I knew NOTHING about them. I think I may have used one to demonstrate electrolysis to my class. ? University of Wisconsin Stevens Point if you're interested.. they are probably still there if nobody has walked off with them.

About professional resistance- I'm sure you expected this given the nature of your research and there's no doubt you will face more of it but persistence should pay off. Given the number of unexplainable artifacts that have been recovered, and continue to be recovered, it's only a matter of time before the traditional thinkers are forced to rethink or at least consider. Again- if some of these things tie in with unexplained things like the "kill zones" in some of the mounds and the such you face a better chance of them listening. I'm not saying you should cater to them just realize that not everything they have is junk either. Not a b or c but ab and c.

Muddying the waters- yeah, A BIG problem and also a major reason why the professionals have closed their doors to outside thought. How many of these cases have risen over the years only to be disproved or found to be a hoax, often times at the expense of somebody's professional career. And there's more of them now than ever before, from aliens to the lost tribes of Israel and everything in between. A lot of people who "know" things with nothing to back it up and having done no research. I was just in an argument here on tnet not long ago in which somebody "knew" that N. American had been colonized "at least" 50,000 years ago. Well, I can't say it's not true BUT how do you have 40,000 years of human occupation that leaves very little, or one might argue, no evidence, then all of a sudden 12,000 years ago there's people all over the place with dozens of well established and carbon dated sites? I see the sudden appearance of all these sites as evidence for a recent migration. And I see 40,000 years of supposed human occupation without a trace far fetched. Yes, I know about Meadowcroft and all that but that's really getting off topic..*pulling myself back now*.

Tyrian dye, maybe. Do I think it could be evidence for contact...yes. Do I view it as "near proof" No. Remember, these aren't savages were talking about here, it's a very advanced culture and I say civilization although technically speaking I think the professionals would call me out on using civilization as a description. At any rate this Mayan culture would have been perfectly capable of producing and discovering the dye independently. Look at their use of the environment and the medicines and technologies derived from them.. amazing to say the least and while one could say that their astronomy, medicinal, and other (dye making) skills are evidence of contact one could also say this is a step backward in thinking. It's like saying that they couldn't have possibly come up with that on their own. Now if the Mayan called it Tyrian dye in their native tongue that's another story Please don't be offended at my writings here, I'm just as skeptical of new thoughts as I am of the traditional ones and by no means aim to discredit you, quite contrary, I find your work interesting and almost feel guilty for taking up this amount of space on your thread.

On pyramids: All I can really say is that they are found in one form or another pretty much everywhere. Not far from my house here in Wisconsin is Aztalan state park with some REALLY amazing pyramids- all earthen contruction. In fact some of the largest pyramids anywhere in the world are found in the states- they aren't recognized as being the largest because they are flat topped and not a true pyramid I suppose but there's one site down south (I can't remember without looking at a book for reference the name) that has a base that is bigger than the great pyramid of Egypt. Again of earthen construction. The fact that pyramid type structures are found everywhere and made of many different materials and different methods (cut stone, mud brick, earth, etc) doesn't persuade me one way or another. I would find this "evidence".....I don't know... questionable I guess. And again, don't take any offense here-

Linguistics: There may be borrowed words- I don't know enough to say nor have I studied the topic much (I always found linguistics with its "glaudal sounds" and what not to be confusing at best) I do know that there are a HUGE number of independent languages recorded in the Americas. Many of these are now extinct but the estimates on the number of different languages around the time of contact ranges in the thousands. If you take five thousand languages and let me, (no, let a professional linguistical anthropologist) copare them to any language of your choice I would think that they would be able to find at least some words that sound similar or seem to have been borrowed. An act of randomness I guess... Now I'm not saying that is ALWAYS the case- there could very well be evidence in some native languages for borrowed words, I'm just saying that it could also go the other way. Again, not trying of disprove or offend you in any shape way or form, trying to keep and open mind to all possibilities thats all.

DNA studies and Caucasian attributes: There's no doubt, at least in my mind. There's very good evidence in a number of cases that skeletal remains appear to have Caucasian features- the DNA aspect I haven't read about but it seems very possible. Is it possible that some small populations through trade and travel may have been in Asia though? Perhaps early nomadic hunting parties traveled as far as Asia thus leaving behind recessive DNA traits? Traits that could have come along with nomadic hunting parties during the last ice age? Just a thought. Personally in this particular case I think your explanation is more likely. (How's that, not just a maybe but a probably! I'm making progress here)

Okay, enough of my ramblings..I would like to see more work done on the subject but won't hold my breath. I hope to read more about what you have to say, it's interesting for sure. Jeff of Pa could settle the whole thing if he finds a cache of coins! I bet that would make the best of Tnet! Anyways, keep up the good work!! Dirty work that is long over due I think!

Until later,
The king of run-on sentences. Cannonman

 

[jeff of pa]

Re: Susquehanna County, Pennsylvania Treasure.

Thank you guys for the interest and kind words, I hope I have not tested your patience beyond the limits. What has all this to do with Joseph Smith and his gold plates, the beginning of the thread? Only that the possibility exists that the plates he discovered and translated into the book of Mormon were not a work of translation so much as inspiration, they could be Punic treaties and this implies the possibility of some VERY interesting finds to be made there! I could go on here Jeff but you have already found that the area has much more history to discover, reaching well into the Stone Age. My best friend once found a solid silver Indian bracelet that weighed nearly three ounces while picking stones out of a field that had been plowed not far from the Susquehanna river, it was in nearly perfect condition and the experts at the local college said that it predated Columbus by at least a thousand years. You never know just what you will find!

Your friend,
Roy – Oroblanco

PS Dekalb and Jeff, keep me in mind if you find any ancient coins? I am very interested in such finds, as you can tell!

Wow, a 3 oz Bracelet ! Now that would be Nice to find around here

and as far as testing My patience, If you's Post it here, I'll enjoy reading it.

Jeff of Pa could settle the whole thing if he finds a cache of coins! I bet that would make the best of Tnet!

Until later,
The king of run-on sentences. Cannonman

LOL, I'm not holding My Breath :P

Would be cool though.

Roy ; Cannonman,

Again, Some Very intresting Reading & Theorys.
I'd join in But I fear I'd be showing My Ignorance on the subject.



But I think I am learning a few things reading your posts.
I think I'll let Writing to you's & just read :P


as the only thing I can say is I would be Very Surprised to find out Columbus was the first here.
I would say, Only if he invented the First "Boat / Ship"

Thanks Very much for everything you's add to this thread.



Jeff

 

[Cannonman17]

Re: Susquehanna County, Pennsylvania Treasure.

Afterthought: If you could trace down that 3oz silver bracelet you could have it scientifically analyzed to find out exactly where the silver came from, or at least what area it came from based upon it's composition.

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Susquehanna County, Pennsylvania Treasure.

Greetings Cannonman,
I will take that “probably” as worth much more than a “maybe” any day! Thank you, and by the way I enjoy your intelligent discussion of the matter. Don’t worry about insulting me if you disagree either, I do not take a disagreement as any kind of insult – and you have been reasoning with me, not like some fellows on these boards that simply want to toss barbs. You should see some of the letters I have received, as a result of a few articles I wrote on this subject – some were downright nasty! I don’t take it personal though if my “theory” does not sit well with someone – there are plenty of other ideas out there that I cannot agree with, and this does not make me think less of those who do support them.

You raised sound objections, among them that danged subject of the pyramids. They are a real sticking point with many people. I know, the “official” line is that they were developed independently, everywhere, and they even ran a several hour TV special a while ago, titled “Pyramids, Mummies and Tombs” to present that case. I have some real problems with this explanation of how we come to find pyramids scattered over so many diverse locations. For one, if this is the natural thing that human beings will do, as a matter of course, due to the structural limitations of working in stone, then we should find tribes in deepest Borneo, Alaska, Siberia, or in more “civilized” areas like Poland or Germany ALL either having already built pyramids or in the process of building them now – and they do not. The pyramids only appear in –certain- places, places which have some commonalities, and these factors are not found where we do not find pyramids. Stone as a ready building material is NOT a primary requirement, either, as one theorist insisted.

Let me explain another problem I have with the totally independent invention idea this way:

We find many pyramids in Egypt, and it can easily be shown how the Egyptians invented their pyramids, a progression from the moustaba (bench) tomb to stacked moustabas, (a stepped pyramid) to the true pyramid. It is possible that Egyptians were inspired to build their own pyramids after seeing the stepped pyramids of Sumer to the east, constructed of adobe bricks and called “ziggurats” but this point is not necessary to examine as we can show that the Egyptians invented their pyramids by a natural progression. They built their pyramids using their own materials and their own methods.

We find many pyramids in the ”land of gold” to the south of Egypt, Nubia, an African kingdom long in conflict and competition with Egypt but also with very close economic ties, we are not surprised. Nubia is heavily influenced by their contacts with their neighbor who borders them on the north, and even though their pyramids are built differently, using different materials and methods from the Egyptians, we have no doubt that the Nubians were inspired to build their own pyramids due to contact with Egypt. The IDEA was transmitted. The fact that their pyramids are built their own way shows us that they did not copy the Egyptians methods, but that they were inspired by Egypt should not be a question.

We then look across the Mediterranean sea and find pyramids in ancient Rome (I am sure that Cannonman is aware of this fact, but may be a surprise to many readers) and again, they are not identical with Egyptian models. They are built using Roman methods and Roman materials, but there is little doubt they got the inspiration to build them after seeing and / or hearing of the famous Egyptian pyramids. There is no evidence of independent invention, even though the greatest proportion of contact between Rome and Egypt took place via the sea, not over land. It is logical to conclude that the Romans were inspired to build their own pyramids, however no where near the impressive size of the Egyptian models, by contact with Egypt – even though this contact was largely by sea.

Looking farther afield, we find pyramids in China! They are different from Egyptian pyramids as well as Nubian and Roman, but again we find no evidence of independent invention here; no one doubts that China was in contact with the Roman empire and earlier with Egypt, so it is logical to conclude that they were inspired to build their own pyramids as a result of the visits of foreigners or travelers of their own returning with reports of the impressive Egyptian pyramids. The Chinese pyramids are built differently from Egyptian models, using different materials and different methods, but it is quite logical that they were inspired to build them due to contact with the places where they originated.

Even farther east, we find that there are pyramids in Korea! (Another place they are not well known of today) These pyramids are different even from those of neighboring China, and again built using different materials and different methods, but there is little doubt that they were inspired to build their own pyramids due to contact, as again there is no evidence of independent invention here either.

Then we cross a larger set of seas, and though these larger seas – oceans – have huge and powerful currents which naturally carry ships across them and back, along with “trade” winds that accomplish very much the same thing, even though we find a large number of pyramids in a large number of places, we are told that these MUST have developed independently. There is no evidence of independent invention here, and the materials used and methods as well are different from those used in Egypt, but if we assume there could not have been any contact whatsoever, they seem to have just started building pyramids by dreaming them up. There are startling similarities and parallels, such as the base size of the Great Pyramid in Egypt being virtually identical with the base size of the Pyramid of the Sun in Mexico, many Mayan pyramids were painted white and covered with hieroglyphics in red paint, just like the way Egyptian pyramids were once covered with white paint and hieroglyphics in red paint, but no matter – this is another of those sets of convenient coincidences. No matter that Egyptian pyramids are believed to have been tombs, and Mayan as well as South American pyramids were also tombs. Most American pyramids were truncated or flat-topped, which is identical to Punic pyramids in Sardinia and the Canaries, and no one doubts that the Carthaginians and Phoenicians were heavily influenced by Egypt, but this must be more coincidences. Of all the things that can be exchanged among cultures, ideas can travel the fastest and the farthest, and you find in ancient texts how non-Egyptian visitors to that land of wonders were literally awe-struck by the impressive pyramids. Such a sight would enthrall foreigners, and the reports of them spread like good news. It is no wonder that so many others chose to build their own pyramids, huge symbols of national power and pride.

I agree, the Mayans were quite advanced in many ways and certainly could have been capable of inventing Tyrian purple on their own, yet when independent invention takes place it is extremely common for there to be important differences in the process, if not the end product. The Phoenicians were not the only people who manufactured the famous Tyrian purple, but in every case where a different people is found in the business, such as the Greeks of Asia Minor, historians concede that they learned the complex and messy art from the Phoenicians. Yet when we find Mayans following the identical process to obtain the identical dye, it cannot have been from contact with the inventors of the dye, who were coincidentally the world’s finest seafarers in their day as well as explorers, this must be independent invention. There is no record in Mayan histories of their invention of this strikingly beautiful dye, but then most of their texts were destroyed by over-zealous priests who came with the Spanish conquistadors and saw the ancient books as the work of the devil, so there could have been a record at one time. However it is not only the Mayans we find in the Americas producing and using Tyrian purple dye, the process is found even in western Ecuador! Did they too, invent the dye independently, or are we now going to attribute this incidence to the Mayans? Even more coincidentally, the Mayan production of the dye does not predate (or closely match) the date of invention of it in Tyre in Phoenicia, rather the reverse is true. If it were not automatically to be dismissed as impossible because there could be no contact, even most historians would conclude that the Mayans must have learned the process from the Phoenicians, or from one of the peoples who learned it from them, like the Greeks.

Anyway I have no problem with your disagreeing with my theory on several grounds or at least with several “legs” of it; far from it, I had hoped to engage you and (once I learned that you were trained as an anthropologist) hopefully learn the areas of the theory which are most likely to be attacked by academics. I hope you don’t mind my picking your brain in the process! I find constructive criticism extremely helpful, and this exchange has encouraged me to get back to work on the book. I certainly do not take any reasoned criticism as some sort of a personal attack.

I don’t mean to come across as so anti-establishment. I have met some of the nicest folks who happened to be professors and doctors in their fields, who (to my delight) did have open minds. This was in private however, I would not wish to endanger their position by aligning with my pet theory publicly. Besides, to a large degree, the academics have it right. In fact, I am convinced that historians have most of history correct! At least 95 to 98 percent of it, my main problem is with the total isolation theory, that the Americas were utterly cut off from the rest of the world for thousands of years prior to Leif Eriksson and Columbus. The sheer number of accidental crossings of the Atlantic should point up the probability that it must have occurred in ancient times as well, for according to one of the experts there were no less than 14 to 18 –thousand- ships plying the Mediterranean sea alone at any given time prior to the fall of the Roman empire, with still more sailing outside that sea. The oceanic currents and prevailing winds will cause ships to cross the ocean un-intentionally. These powerful winds (especially when it storms) are what caused Bjarni Herjolfsson to find himself off the coast of North America in 986 AD, he did not put to shore so is largely forgotten by history, but he did tell of the new lands he saw to young Leif Eriksson. To the south, in 1484, French captain Jean Cousin found his ship blown across the Atlantic to what is today Brazil, but like Herjolfsson, he refused to go ashore so is only a footnote to history; in 1500 Portuguese captain Pedro Cabral, like Cousin, was sailing down the coast of Africa when powerful storms blew him across the Atlantic to Brazil, and he did go ashore. Then remember that this is the exact same way that Aristotle and Diodorus Siculus said that the Carthaginians discovered America, by accident, after being blown across the Atlantic by storms, while they were sailing down the west coast of Africa; in the very same place and very same way that it happened to Cabral and Cousin many centuries later, and even happens occasionally today.

Thank you Cannonman (and Jeff, Jose, Dekalb and those who have been following the discussion though not adding to the banter) for the opportunity to propose the theory here, I didn’t intend on pouring quite so much out but wanted to explain why I feel that the gold plates found by Smith are quite possibly something quite different from a religious text, and that much more could be found in that region. We don’t even know, for instance, if the gold plates found by Smith are what the “straggling” Indian was referring to as “treasure” – as has been pointed out, it seems difficult to believe that such a tradition could have been passed down by word of mouth alone over so many centuries. There is a solid report of a Spanish treasure being buried on a hill along the Susquehanna river to the west of this location (near Athens PA) which has not been found, though a cross and Spanish sword were recovered there – the treasure reported by the passing Indian may well have been something far more recent than ancient gold plates.

Anyway I have very much enjoyed the discussion with so many valid issues raised; as you can tell this is a pet project with me and a favorite subject to discuss. I hope you all have a great day, you have given me several now!

Your friend,
Roy – Oroblanco

“From the moment I picked your book up until I laid it down I was convulsed with laughter. Someday I intend reading it.” –Groucho Marx