✅ SOLVED Test your skills on this one! Spent years trying to ID this.

[musclecar]

I found this in Alaska about 10 years ago, and have never been able to ID it. It is an aluminum piece, about 3 inches square. It has 15 teeth and is numbered 1-15. There is a stop preventing it from spinning freely. The back has two tabs that may have been used to mount it. ANY GUESSES?

Thanks,

MC

PS The quarter used for size was found yesterday! 1935S Yeah!

 

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[wwace]

"NEWS FLASH!"


Please note dad admits changes have occurred over the years, and that text references on patents refer to tallying devices being attached to cages, but he strongly believes that any kind of cage mounted egg counting devise was not used on an everyday basis on everyday farms who sometimes had tens of thousands of laying hens. He said there was just no (mass produced) "need" for it! A "setter" was a "setter," and that's how my grandfather and everone else in the county "culled" (got rid of) their non producing hens.

However ...

Dad added that most poultry farmers (then and now) were/are members of various poultry organizations whose primary role was to find better ways of maintaining healthier chickens for the sole purpose of producing more eggs. These poultry organizations did all kinds of research that can only be described as "Poultry Science." Dad said that my grandfather, as well as every other poultryman in the county who was a member, were required to provide ten randomly selected "layer's." Dad emphasied this randon selection because it was intended to fall into the overall percentage factor previously mentioned. And then the poultry organization would keep these "layer's" under close observation for about a year, keeping track primarily of their egg production, and accordingly would arrive at which farmer was raising the best laying hens. And when this was determined (whether it was the feed the farmer was using or whatever) they would breed and cross-breed the best of the best hens until they had the highest egg producing hens that money could buy. Note: Dad said that the same particular feed mix used by a particular farmer was the only thing allowed to be given to his particular hens. The farmer's/members were also required in various ways to participate in the testing. He said members had to pay fees for this type of research, and it just so happened that my grandfather's hens took first place one year, and within a period of time they were developing and hatching chicks directly from my grandfather's "strain." (I intend to research this and see if I can find any records).

Bottom Line ... ?

Dad is strongly of the opinion that most of these so called "Tallying Devices" were intended for labratory, (Poultry Organization) use and to him this would be a very logical place to search for a possible identification.

BOB

Ok in an attempt to steer this forever away from the egg counter idea I totally agree with Bob's grandfather. There was never any need for a counter attached to a cage. Just imagine sending the boys out to gather the eggs. One child idly twirls the counter on hen#8, counters 2, 5 and 7 get bumped or pecked or whatever. What happens when it gets to 14? And 15? And over what time period are we inquiring? And why? Much easier to write down production numbers in a journal or a columnar pad if in a more serious instance. Face it, somebody would have to write it down at some point if they wanted to keep track. Easier to just write it down rather than taking the actual steps of mass producing something that is not needed, attaching it to a cage where it's going to get full of chicken crap (they aint clean) adjusting it as needed and finally transposing the indicated values to paper. KISS method (keep it simple stupid) points to something else entirely, the very first post mentioned a counter of some sort, so that is what stuck with you guys. I think Mech was the first to call it what it actually is: A part of a device that indicates a setting thanks again

 

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[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Here's one that says it is a tallying device - "to maintain an accurate tally and record of the productivity of hens ...." and it attaches to a cage -


http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=udhPAAAAEBAJ

~ * ~

Since my name was mentioned, I feel it is only proper that I should respond. And please understand I am not trying to stuff an egg counter into everyone's Christmas stocking. But from all of the "photo evidence" produced so far, I still say Bramblefind's discoveries make the most sense. I have included her first one here, and will follow with the second one in my next post.

SBB

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

I think the reason we cannot find an exact match because this is a patented invention that was not needed.

Ok here is a snippet page from the 1956 Poultry Tribune that I referenced before-

And here is her second one confirming again that egg counters were a real deal. And as to how such a device ended up in Alaska, I can't say. But we do know those homesteaders came from someplace, and maybe our little mystery invention just went along for the ride. No one is saying with absoloute certainty there were massive poultry farms in Soldotna, only that the most compelling (documented) evidence so far surely must have some merit.

SBB

 

[wwace]

I think the reason we cannot find an exact match because this is a patented invention that was not needed.

Ok here is a snippet page from the 1956 Poultry Tribune that I referenced before-

And here is her second one confirming again that egg counters were a real deal. And as to how such a device ended up in Alaska, I can't say. But we do know those homesteaders came from someplace, and maybe our little mystery invention just went along for the ride. No one is saying with absoloute certainty there were massive poultry farms in Soldotna, only that the most compelling (documented) evidence so far surely must have some merit.

SBB

Regardless of your fine research, the item we have was mass produced indicating it was needed. Mass produced items typically mean tens of thousands or more, think of the machining, tool & die required to stamp these out by the thousands per day probably. If chicken egg counters were mass produced everyone would have a couple laying around and we would most likey know which came first: "The chicken or the egg"

 

[Bramblefind]

I've been thinking about this for a while but I finally just did it - I sent an email to Peggy Mullen on the Soldotna City Council. I think she is part of the Mullen family who were original homesteaders (and had the poultry farm).

If I get anything back I will post it.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

And while I'm at it I might as well post this link to the "egg counter" device I found with the "bendable tabs" on the back of it.

Everyone knows I'm like a bloodhound and will follow any trail that has a bonified scent to it. And I will do the same with anyone who can show me one iota of true-blue "evidence," (Image is best), showing that the device is in any way, shape, or form directly, or indirectly, related to anything "electronic," as opposed to it being a simple, manually operated invention. Again, none of what I or others have produced "proves" it is an egg tallying device, only that so far this is where the best "evidence" has led us.

SBB

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/2787420.pdf

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Logic dictates that this piece is part of a device used to control something. It is obvious that there was a cover and probably other pieces missing as well as whatever it was that it used to control. The tabs on the mounting plate are there to "locate" the item into the proper orientation with the rest (missing) of the device. Where it was found says that it is part of a heating control as this was and is the single most important aspect of living here. The large, finger size tabs on the wheel indicate that It was meant to be adjusted easily with your fingers. Also the 15 being next to the 1 is if you decided you want "full" heat you could just move the wheel one notch as it were rather than rotating the wheel 360 degrees. I am not that familiar with electrical engineering but I believe a rheostat will behave that way. The stamped construction with the cheap "rivet" wheel attachment is consistent with electrical devices from that era, it was meant to be adjusted once in a while but not meant to be continuously rotated. The construction would not have held up to being abused for long. The golf club shapes stamped into the back plate were there to either allow the wheel to rotate freely or to raise it slightly off the surface of its parent appliance to prevent heat (or cold) from directly contacting it, or both. Most of the limit controls for modern heating appliances have actual temperature values on the adjustment wheel but on older devices it was common to use a number or letter as it is simple to do rather than matching an actual temperature value to the appliance. Imagine setting you heater to 110 degrees but it only gets to 68 degrees, that's why they did this. It also allows the product to have some flexibility as to what you applied it too. As most of the appliances that this device would have been attached to had zero value once they were replaced it is entirely likely that it ended up in the woods. There would have been a spot where the homesteader dumped his trash as that was the easy way back then. Also it is unlikely that many of these appliances remain as most were obsolete by the 1970's and certainly so when natural gas became available to the property.

So anyway, I suck at paint and photoshop type stuff but I will search around some and see if I can find some pics. I look forward to your comments, thanks.

Thanks for responding but your logic is seriously flawed. We have been over this all before. You said you are not familiar with electronic engineering. (I was hoping you were). I am an HVAC/refrigeration technician for 30 years and I see no way possible that this simple device could have attached to anything else. The sprocket wheel is connected with a simple rivet. There is no way for it to connect to a control.

Im not sure if you understand, but think of the knobs on your metal detector that may go from 1-15. The knob has to have a shaft to connect to the electronic control. WE HAVE NO SHAFT and there is no way this rivet can connect to a shaft. As Bob says there is no way, shape, or form this is directly related to anything electronic. That is why I asked you to draw a diagram explaining how this would be done. And please dont say it can be attached by the tabs.

I agree that the golf club sized thingies are to allow the wheel to rotate freely or to raise it slightly off the surface and this was realized long ago. This is another clue going against an electronic control. A control that is attached permanently by the shaft does not need these thingies to keep it raised. My experiment with wire fence showed that these angled golf club things made sure the bottom rivet would never touch the fence so as to spin freely. It also stiffened the entire assembly keeping it tight on the fence wire..

Ill copy and paste Bobs quote as it is appropriate: Everyone knows I'm like a bloodhound and will follow any trail that has a bonified scent to it. And I will do the same with anyone who can show me one iota of true-blue "evidence," (Image is best), showing that the device is in any way, shape, or form directly, or indirectly, related to anything "electronic," as opposed to it being a simple, manually operated invention. Again, none of what I or others have produced "proves" it is an egg tallying device, only that so far this is where the best "evidence" has led us.



Again thanks for posting and your thoughts are always welcome but until someone can draw a decent diagram showing how this would attach to a heating control, or any control for that matter, we have to rule it out.

 

[wwace]

Thanks for responding but your logic is seriously flawed. We have been over this all before. You said you are not familiar with electronic engineering. (I was hoping you were). I am an HVAC/refrigeration technician for 30 years and I see no way possible that this simple device could have attached to anything else. The sprocket wheel is connected with a simple rivet. There is no way for it to connect to a control.

I'm not sure if you understand, but think of the knobs on your metal detector that may go from 1-15. The knob has to have a shaft to connect to the electronic control. WE HAVE NO SHAFT and there is no way this rivet can connect to a shaft. As Bob says there is no way, shape, or form this is directly related to anything electronic. That is why I asked you to draw a diagram explaining how this would be done. And please don't say it can be attached by the tabs.

I agree that the golf club sized thingies are to allow the wheel to rotate freely or to raise it slightly off the surface and this was realized long ago. This is another clue going against an electronic control. A control that is attached permanently by the shaft does not need these thingies to keep it raised. My experiment with wire fence showed that these angled golf club things made sure the bottom rivet would never touch the fence so as to spin freely. It also stiffened the entire assembly keeping it tight on the fence wire..

Ill copy and paste Bobs quote as it is appropriate: Everyone knows I'm like a bloodhound and will follow any trail that has a bonified scent to it. And I will do the same with anyone who can show me one iota of true-blue "evidence," (Image is best), showing that the device is in any way, shape, or form directly, or indirectly, related to anything "electronic," as opposed to it being a simple, manually operated invention. Again, none of what I or others have produced "proves" it is an egg tallying device, only that so far this is where the best "evidence" has led us.



Again thanks for posting and your thoughts are always welcome but until someone can draw a decent diagram showing how this would attach to a heating control, or any control for that matter, we have to rule it out.
[/quote]

Seriously flawed logic huh, that's almost an insult. First and foremost, the simple fact that the wheel lacks a zero indicates that it is not a device used to count anything, this is simple logic. I looked up a bunch of the egg counter patents and they all included zero on their counting devices, as does the one pictured above. I do not think there is a numeric system without a null value. Also the numbers 1-14 and or 15 do not seem to relate to anything that anyone would typically count or keep track of. If I designed an egg counter it would be base twelve and have at least the capacity to count to 144, twelve dozen.
Also I never said that I was 100% sure it was part of an electric device. Just that it is the most likely. Heater, yeah again the most likely choice, heating devices would outnumber refrigerators at least 10 to 1. If it was I will attempt describe how the assembly would be as I picture it. I never said that the wheel was attached at the hub/rivet. Here are some examples of how it could have been part of a mechanism electric or not: The little tab may have had a "bakelite" or similar material block that slid onto the tab. Attached to this would be a copper contact that had a wire attachment tab and a contact that would rest against a rheostat(or maybe potentiometer?) that would be either attached to another mounting plate/bracket that resided concentrically above the numbered wheel. As you moved the dial the contact would rotate against rest of the potentiometer. The single thing that tells me it is likely electric is the fact the the 15 (highest setting)is accessible from the 1 (lowest) position without rotating the dial 360 degrees. Potentiometers work in this fashion and it would be a desireable feature. Or it could have been assembled in such a way so the tab stuck up and into a slot in the potentiometer control arm. Most Potentiometers cannot be rotated more than 360 degrees, this is to keep the wire on the control arm from twisting up and eventually breaking. the The holes in the wheel mounting plate would have locater pins from the next assembly in them so it would be properly positioned. The device cover would be a cap that snapped over the assembly with the three tabs in slots or notches properly locating the device. Alternately it could have just resided inside an appliance with the viewing opening and adjustment wheel opening incorporated into the appliance itself. Another scenario is that there was a coil, spring or linkage that fit over the tab and remotely controlled the electrics. Also I mentioned that it may not have been electric but a totally mechanical device that may control a damper or similar item. I have described at least 4 or 5 different ways for it to be used that are all well thought out, imo, if my logic is flawed so be it. Any way I guess I will learn photoshop and paint to help you visualize what I describe.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

First and foremost, the simple fact that the wheel lacks a zero indicates that it is not a device used to count anything, this is simple logic. I looked up a bunch of the egg counter patents and they all included zero on their counting devices, as does the one pictured above. I do not think there is a numeric system without a null value. Also the numbers 1-14 and or 15 do not seem to relate to anything that we would typically count or keep track of.

I didnt read your entire post yet but so far I disagree completely. Not true. It may not say zero but it certainly has a zero position. The numbers 1-15 could be the amount of eggs laid in a 2 week period.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Also I never said that I was 100% sure it was part of an electric device. Just that it is the most likely. Heater, yeah again the most likely choice, heating devices would outnumber refrigerators at least 10 to 1. If it was I will attempt describe how the assembly would be as I picture it. I never said that the wheel was attached at the hub/rivet. Here are some examples of how it could have been part of a mechanism electric or not: The little tab may have had a "bakelite" or similar material block that slid onto the tab. Attached to this would be a copper contact that had a wire attachment tab and a contact that would rest against a rheostat(or maybe potentiometer?) that would be either attached to another mounting plate/bracket that resided concentrically above the numbered wheel. As you moved the dial the contact would rotate against rest of the potentiometer. The single thing that tells me it is likely electric is the fact the the 15 (highest setting)is accessible from the 1 (lowest) position without rotating the dial 360 degrees. Potentiometers work in this fashion and it would be a desireable feature. Or it could have been assembled in such a way so the tab stuck up and into a slot in the potentiometer control arm. Most Potentiometers cannot be rotated more than 360 degrees, this is to keep the wire on the control arm from twisting up and eventually breaking. the The holes in the wheel mounting plate would have locater pins from the next assembly in them so it would be properly positioned. The device cover would be a cap that snapped over the assembly with the three tabs in slots or notches properly locating the device. Alternately it could have just resided inside an appliance with the viewing opening and adjustment wheel opening incorporated into the appliance itself. Another scenario is that there was a coil, spring or linkage that fit over the tab and remotely controlled the electrics. Also I mentioned that it may not have been electric but a totally mechanical device that may control a damper or similar item. I have described at least 4 or 5 different ways for it to be used that are all well thought out, imo, if my logic is flawed so be it. Any way I guess I will learn photoshop and paint to help you visualize what I describe.

Like I said my profession is HVAC technician which means Heating Ventilation and Air Conditioning. Do you have a camera? Im really trying to understand. Intimer tried to describe the same operation, I believe. You maybe could make a pencil drawing and take a picture or scan it.

I agree that logically this is a contol dial but it just doesnt connect like anything I have ever seen in the trade.

 

[wwace]

Like I said my profession is HVAC technician which means Heating Ventilation and Air Conditioning. Do you have a camera? Im really trying to understand. Intimer tried to describe the same operation, I believe. You maybe could make a pencil drawing and take a picture or scan it.

I agree that logically this is a contol dial but it just doesnt connect like anything I have ever seen in the trade.
[/quote]

I know what HVAC is, I have been a contractor for 34 yrs. Before 1990 I did alot of plumbing, my uncle ran the plumbing side of our business and we did many heating system conversions, new homes and small commercial projects. Now although I have a general contractor license we only do tile, stone & concrete polishing, almost all commercial. I guess I have to learn photoshop or paint to help

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Seriously flawed logic huh, that's almost an insult.

No sir. I am not insulting you. Dont go there. We are simply stating opinions. I have stated that your input is welcome and I thank you for posting. I am only giving you my professional opinion. You admitted that you are not familiar with electronic engineering.

Also I never said that I was 100% sure it was part of an electric device.

I realize that.

I never said that the wheel was attached at the hub/rivet.

The wheel is attached to the rivet. That is a nondisputed fact.

 

[wwace]

[

I never said that the wheel was attached at the hub/rivet.

The wheel is attached to the rivet. That is a nondisputed fact.
[/quote]
What I meant is that the hub was attached to something besides the wheel

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I know what HVAC is, I have been a contractor for 34 yrs. Before 1990 I did alot of plumbing, my uncle ran the plumbing side of our business and we did many heating system conversions, new homes and small commercial projects.

OK great I misunderstood when you stated you where not familiar with electronic engineering.

Like I said. Thanks for posting. I am here to learn. I will study your post when I get more time.. 8) Just say Im a little slow. Dont get any hard feeling here its not necessary.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

What I meant is that the hub was attached to something besides the wheel

So you are saying that you believe the control may have attached to the face, and not the backside?

 

[wwace]

how do I highlight quotes?

 

[wwace]

So you are saying that you believe the control attaches to the face, and not the backside?

correct sir

 

[wwace]

the guts of the device would reside in front of the wheel

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

So you are saying that you believe the control attaches to the face, and not the backside?

correct sir

OK thats what I thought. That would be the only way but in this scenario wouldnt the numbers be obscured? I will have to make a cardboard cover and try it. This is the same thing intimer tried to describe reply #1058 and he also became upset at me for not accepting the idea. So maybe its me. I always figured the tab was a stop, nothing else. I apologize to both of you if I didnt understand. I will try to study it. 8) The best way to test these ideas would be to try it or draw it.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

how do I highlight quotes?

Its tricky. You have to leave [/quote] before and after.