The Book Club

[Springfield]

Springfield,

For all we know, Mitchell/Marlowe did have the best experts of his day look at the Stones. We can't assume he had an unqualified rock hound look at them.

And then there's the problem of no matter who examined them, there would always be those who say the examiners were not qualified, or on the take, or paid to say one thing or another.

Why right here on this very forum if God himself appeared and said the Stones were authentic there would be at least one person who posts who would tell us God had made a mistake and he knew the real story.

One very intelligent and open minded member here did look into the story of Mitchell and his examination and ran it down to the family of one of the men who allegedly did the examination. As I understand the family either didn't have all his papers, couldn't find them, had disposed of some of them or the University had them at one time. There is no assumption either that the examination was not a private matter between Mitchell and the Professors and the University was not involved. We don't know the circumstances and cannot say how the examination was structured.

Matthew K. Roberts

I guess you're right - God himself would have a hard time gaining traction with these rocks.

 

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[Dirty Dutchman]

Mr Roberts,

There are some people here that are interested in what you have to say. I hope you can continue to ignore the negativity that pops up after you post something.

Thanks
Travis

 

[Springfield]

Mr Roberts,

There are some people here that are interested in what you have to say. I hope you can continue to ignore the negativity that pops up after you post something.

Thanks
Travis

Actually, I support Mr. Robert's statements. He seems to be emotionally detached from much of the unsubstantiated lore surrounding these stones, which is a healthy attitude. I suspect he seeks the truth of the matter, not cheerleaders to stroke his ego.

Everyone argues whether these rocks are 'authentic' or not. Of course they are authentic - they exist, created by persons presently unknown for reasons yet to be determined. As one who suspects that there is a cache of great value in the region (and similar caches elsewhere in the sw), my present working model is that the stones were manufactured no sooner than ca 1930 +/- and display clues that correspond to things found in the hills. Based on the past fifty years of failure by many capable people to solve the puzzle, it seems obvious the stones are a circular argument, presumably a clever diversion and possibly coded in a manner completely unrelated to popular dogma.

 

[somehiker]

I'm satisfied to set aside my own theories about the origin and the age of the stones.
Even my beliefs regarding which are replicas vs possibly original.
I'll wait to see what may still be at the end. If undisturbed, there will be things which can be dated, from the oldest to the newest.
Some may have organic or mineral residue as well, giving approximate dates of internment. What they are should give an idea as to where they came from.etc.
I may be wrong, but I think it's worth another hike to find out. If I'm right, we may be able to help write a new chapter in the history of the sups.
We'll see how it turns out.

Regards:SH.

 

[cactusjumper]

Mr Roberts,

There are some people here that are interested in what you have to say. I hope you can continue to ignore the negativity that pops up after you post something.

Thanks
Travis

Travis,

I am always interested in what Kraig has to say. I have saved many, many posts that he has deleted from different sites. He has a lot to share on the local and Apache history. As for the "negativity", he is only reaping what he has sown.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Springfield]

.... I'll wait to see what may still be at the end. If undisturbed, there will be things which can be dated, from the oldest to the newest.
Some may have organic or mineral residue as well, giving approximate dates of internment. What they are should give an idea as to where they came from.etc.....

Regards:SH.

Now that's an interesting statement. Care to share, even in a general manner, what sorts of things you anticipate are at the end of the trail?

 

[Hal Croves]

Actually, I support Mr. Robert's statements. He seems to be emotionally detached from much of the unsubstantiated lore surrounding these stones, which is a healthy attitude. I suspect he seeks the truth of the matter, not cheerleaders to stroke his ego.

Everyone argues whether these rocks are 'authentic' or not. Of course they are authentic - they exist, created by persons presently unknown for reasons yet to be determined. As one who suspects that there is a cache of great value in the region (and similar caches elsewhere in the sw), my present working model is that the stones were manufactured no sooner than ca 1930 +/- and display clues that correspond to things found in the hills. Based on the past fifty years of failure by many capable people to solve the puzzle, it seems obvious the stones are a circular argument, presumably a clever diversion and possibly coded in a manner completely unrelated to popular dogma.

Springfield,
I would enjoy hearing your ideas on the dating of the stones. "No sooner than ca 1930 =/-" suggest a modern (relative) work. Who in their right mind do you think would be hiding "caches of great value" during that period?

[h=3]To: The United States Congress
Dated: 5 April, 1933
Presidential Executive Order 6102[/h] Forbidding the Hoarding of Gold Coin, Gold Bullion and Gold Certificates By virtue of the authority vested in me by Section 5(b) of the Act of October 6, 1917, as amended by Section 2 of the Act of March 9, 1933, entitled
An Act to provide relief in the existing national emergency in banking, and for other purposes~',
in which amendatory Act Congress declared that a serious emergency exists,
I, Franklin D. Roosevelt, President of the United States of America, do declare that said national emergency still continues to exist and pursuant to said section to do hereby prohibit the hoarding gold coin, gold bullion, and gold certificates within the continental United States by individuals, partnerships, associations and corporations and hereby prescribe the following regulations for carrying out the purposes of the order:
Section 1. For the purpose of this regulation, the term 'hoarding" means the withdrawal and withholding of gold coin, gold bullion, and gold certificates from the recognized and customary channels of trade. The term "person" means any individual, partnership, association or corporation.
Section 2. All persons are hereby required to deliver on or before May 1, 1933, to a Federal Reserve bank or a branch or agency thereof or to any member bank of the Federal Reserve System all gold coin, gold bullion, and gold certificates now owned by them or coming into their ownership on or before April 28, 1933, except the following:
(a) Such amount of gold as may be required for legitimate and customary use in industry, profession or art within a reasonable time, including gold prior to refining and stocks of gold in reasonable amounts for the usual trade requirements of owners mining and refining such gold.
(b) Gold coin and gold certificates in an amount not exceeding in the aggregate $100.00 belonging to any one person; and gold coins having recognized special value to collectors of rare and unusual coins.
(c) Gold coin and bullion earmarked or held in trust for a recognized foreign government or foreign central bank or the Bank for International Settlements.
(d) Gold coin and bullion licensed for the other proper transactions (not involving hoarding) including gold coin and gold bullion imported for the re-export or held pending action on applications for export license.
Section 3. Until otherwise ordered any person becoming the owner of any gold coin, gold bullion, and gold certificates after April 28, 1933, shall within three days after receipt thereof, deliver the same in the manner prescribed in Section 2; unless such gold coin, gold bullion, and gold certificates are held for any of the purposes specified in paragraphs (a),(b) or (c) of Section 2; or unless such gold coin, gold bullion is held for purposes specified in paragraph (d) of Section 2 and the person holding it is, with respect to such gold coin or bullion, a licensee or applicant for license pending action thereon.

Section 4. Upon receipt of gold coin, gold bullion, or gold certificates delivered to it in accordance with Section 2 or 3, the Federal reserve bank or member bank will pay thereof an equivalent amount of any other form of coin or currency coined or issued under the laws of the Unites States.

Section 5. Member banks shall deliver alt gold coin, gold bullion, and gold certificates owned or received by them (other than as exempted under the provisions of Section 2) to the Federal reserve banks of there respective districts and receive credit or payment thereof.
Section 6. The Secretary of the Treasury, out of the sum made available to the President by Section 501 of the Act of March 9, 1933, will in all proper cases pay the reasonable costs of transportation of gold coin, gold bullion, and gold certificates delivered to a member bank or Federal reserve bank in accordance with Sections 2, 3, or 5 hereof, including the cost of insurance, protection, and such other incidental costs as may be necessary, upon production of satisfactory evidence of such costs. Voucher forms for this purpose may be procured from Federal reserve banks.
Section 7. In cases where the delivery of gold coin, gold bullion, or gold certificates by the owners thereof within the time set forth above will involve extraordinary hardship or difficulty, the Secretary of the Treasury may, in his discretion, extend the time within which such delivery must be made. Applications for such extensions must be made in writing under oath; addressed to the Secretary of the Treasury and filed with a Federal reserve bank. Each applications must state the date to which the extension is desired, the amount and location of the gold coin, gold bullion, and gold certificates in respect of which such application is made and the facts showing extension to be necessary to avoid extraordinary hardship or difficulty.
Section 8. The Secretary of the Treasury is hereby authorized and empowered to issue such further regulations as he may deem necessary to carry the purposes of this order and to issue licenses there under, through such officers or agencies as he may designate, including licenses permitting the Federal reserve banks and member banks of the Federal Reserve System, in return for an equivalent amount of other coin, currency or credit, to deliver, earmark or hold in trust gold coin or bullion to or for persons showing the need for same for any of the purposes specified in paragraphs (a), (c), and (d) of Section 2 of these regulations.
Section 9. Whoever willfully violates any provision of this Executive Order or these regulation or of any rule, regulation or license issued there under may be fined not more than $10,000, or,if a natural person may be imprisoned for not more than ten years or both; and any officer, director, or agent of any corporation who knowingly participates in any such violation may be punished by a like fine, imprisonment, or both.
This order and these regulations may be modified or revoked at any time.
/s/
Franklin D. Roosevelt
President of the United States of America
April 5, 1933

and....


"When were gold restrictions lifted ?

December 31, 1974 ended the era of private U.S. gold ownership restrictions which had begun in 1933. As of January 1, 1975, U.S. citizens were again free to own gold in any form, including bullion, and in any amount that they can afford, without restrictions or any federal ‘reporting’ of those holdings."

"But wait!"
By 1964 things began to relax some. June 12, 1964? Isn't this date important to stone mappers? Like a birthday or coming out day. Hey, WM. Mahan's work on Early Spanish Treasure Signs & Symbols was published just months before the Life article.

"These prohibitions were relaxed starting in 1964 – gold certificates were again allowed for private investors on April 24, 1964, although the obligation to pay the certificate holder on demand in gold specie would not be honored."

 

[sgtfda]

Hal you telling me the paper in my wallet is worthless? That law was why a lot of folks stashed their gold in the back yard

 

[Springfield]

Springfield,
I would enjoy hearing your ideas on the dating of the stones. "No sooner than ca 1930 =/-" suggest a modern (relative) work. Who in their right mind do you think would be hiding "caches of great value" during that period?

To: The United States Congress
Dated: 5 April, 1933
Presidential Executive Order 6102

.....

The Salt/Gila region is not an island to itself. It becomes rapidly apparent that an explosion in increased public awareness of 'lost mines and hidden treasure' occurred ca 1920's - ca 1940's in the western states. The major legends (Victorio Peak, Superstitions, Lost Adams, et al) were strengthened through disclosures of new discoveries, sensational stories, popular books, newly surfaced maps, etc. Lesser known but equally significant legends were actually born during the period - New Mexico, Arizona, Colorado, Utah, Oklahoma. Common themes connected many of them, perhaps the best known being the 'Mexican with a map' arriving in town, 'looking for landmarks.' A great many of today's remote carvings and other clues were 'discovered' during this period. It's not a stretch to throw the 'Peralta Maps' into this larger group.

Your reference to FDR's gold confiscation act is a brilliant observation and a subject that ought to be seriously considered when thinking about all the 'treasure activities' of the era. Cached coins can be melted into crude bullion bars and identified as 'Spanish gold'. New 'Spanish treasure signs' nearby might not hurt either. Later disposal of crude bullion would be much easier than that of US coins. I wonder who owned the mines in those days?

Who are these guys? Very capable and well-connected conspirators, seemingly. The better question might be, 'Why do the valuables remain hidden?'

 

[sgtfda]

Perhaps because they are dead and their rich spoiled kids could care less.

 

[Springfield]

Perhaps because they are dead and their rich spoiled kids could care less.

Maybe. Makes as much sense as, 'Let's go back to Mexico and bury all our hard-earned gold way up north.'

 

[somehiker]

Now that's an interesting statement. Care to share, even in a general manner, what sorts of things you anticipate are at the end of the trail?

Generally ? Anything the owners and their clients didn't want to get caught not having paid the taxes on, along with "the books" and other other materials related to the business. What's the normal procedure when a bank or even a pawnshop is raided and shut down by the IRS/Treasury Dep't. ? If the books at the bank look like they've been cooked, or they find any "little black books" on the premises, their next stop is the client's house .

Regards:SH.

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal you telling me the paper in my wallet is worthless? That law was why a lot of folks stashed their gold in the back yard

sgtfda,
I guess that would depend on what type of paper you carry around these days. IOU's, play money, and placements may be problematic. I only know that these were the conditions of the period. If a cache of gold was found during this time, I think that it would have been confiscated by the Federal Reserve. I think because that is how the law reads, but in actuality, I do not know what would have happened. I am looking for an example of a discovery during that period that will provide the example.

I read that you are now officially a stone-er. Congratulations and welcome to the club! If that trail that you are currently following ever turns cold, I hope that you will then put on your detectives thinking cap and spend a little time looking at possible suspects that date to the discovery period. Mr. X is there, just waiting to be appreciated and one never knows, the two of you might have quite a bit in common.

 

[Hal Croves]

The Salt/Gila region is not an island to itself. It becomes rapidly apparent that an explosion in increased public awareness of 'lost mines and hidden treasure' occurred ca 1920's - ca 1940's in the western states. The major legends (Victorio Peak, Superstitions, Lost Adams, et al) were strengthened through disclosures of new discoveries, sensational stories, popular books, newly surfaced maps, etc. Lesser known but equally significant legends were actually born during the period - New Mexico, Arizona, Colorado, Utah, Oklahoma. Common themes connected many of them, perhaps the best known being the 'Mexican with a map' arriving in town, 'looking for landmarks.' A great many of today's remote carvings and other clues were 'discovered' during this period. It's not a stretch to throw the 'Peralta Maps' into this larger group.

Your reference to FDR's gold confiscation act is a brilliant observation and a subject that ought to be seriously considered when thinking about all the 'treasure activities' of the era. Cached coins can be melted into crude bullion bars and identified as 'Spanish gold'. New 'Spanish treasure signs' nearby might not hurt either. Later disposal of crude bullion would be much easier than that of US coins. I wonder who owned the mines in those days?

Who are these guys? Very capable and well-connected conspirators, seemingly. The better question might be, 'Why do the valuables remain hidden?'

You are getting into an area that is difficult to intelligently comment on. But as to why things remain hidden? What is waiting to be rediscovered may be a painful part of SW history, one that with time has healed over to some degree like a scar. It may simply be intended to remain that way. Either way, I honestly do believe that there is something hidden in the SWA that is historically important... perhaps even monetarily. When Mr. X is eventually identified, I believe that you will see the obvious connection. It was his nature to preserve things and this I believe he did with the stones. A leap of faith is needed here. But once one accepts a modern dating of the stones, and if I or cactusjumper, or anyone else with a similar solution to reading the stones is correct, than only one man could have pulled it off.

That list of skills is important. When one lives with it long enough, one sees how difficult it is to find someone who fits every skill on the list. But again, there is one name that fits like a glove. You know it.

One thing we need to ask ourselves is how someone in the 1930's/40's would have obtained this type of information. Was it the discovery of an old map, oral traditions passed along, or first hand discoveries? What people would have known these "secrets" and who would have been qualified (trusted) to learn them? There is only one person... (IMO).

My goal is to demonstrate how to read the stones, individually and together as they are intended to be read. Once I have figured out how to communicate this effectively, I will offer compelling evidence to support the name.

 

[Springfield]

...... A leap of faith is needed here. But once one accepts a modern dating of the stones, and if I or cactusjumper, or anyone else with a similar solution to reading the stones is correct, than only one man could have pulled it off.

That list of skills is important. When one lives with it long enough, one sees how difficult it is to find someone who fits every skill on the list. But again, there is one name that fits like a glove. You know it.

One thing we need to ask ourselves is how someone in the 1930's/40's would have obtained this type of information. Was it the discovery of an old map, oral traditions passed along, or first hand discoveries? What people would have known these "secrets" and who would have been qualified (trusted) to learn them? There is only one person... (IMO).

My goal is to demonstrate how to read the stones, individually and together as they are intended to be read. Once I have figured out how to communicate this effectively, I will offer compelling evidence to support the name.

Well, I don't personally believe a single person could have accomplished the things you're talking about, but as always, I could be wrong. I certainly don't know who your 'Mr. X' is, but am curious to see the evidence.

 

[Hal Croves]

Well, I don't personally believe a single person could have accomplished the things you're talking about, but as always, I could be wrong. I certainly don't know who your 'Mr. X' is, but am curious to see the evidence.

Not to blow smoke up your backside, but you have nailed it. People by nature do not keep secrets very well. A group? Perhaps, but someone would have leaked something along the way. The only way to pull off any scheme with 100% success is to go it alone. You only have yourself to be concerned about. You control everything and are solely responsible for the results. You pass and unless you leave a clue, the secret remains a secret.

I think that the stones are one mans effort to tell us something important.
Something like an encrypted time capsule.

He was more than able to do it alone. And I would argue that he may have been the only man in the area who could have done it, in that time.
There is so much to point to.

We can even place him it the area of AZ where the raw stones are believed to have come from... at a specific point in time.
No smoking gun, but circumstantial.

He came to Phoenix from Santa Fe.

He was an advocate for the expansion of the wilderness area.

He knew from first hand experience, the people who lived in and around the Superstitions.

He was something of an artist, but more of a art historian.

He knew Native American Cultures, traditions, and secrets, perhaps as well as any European-American could at the time.

He was a navigator and traveled the world.

He could fly, but flight was not his passion.

He understood electrical systems.

He was a patriot to several countries.

He was a teacher.

The list goes on. Only one man could have done it.
I used gut instinct on Barnard, but with Mr. X, it was reason.
You know him.

 

[Springfield]

...
You know him.

Hmm. Sounds like West Dallu. If so, I see what you're driving at .. a perfect team player. Lone wolf? ... still hard to swallow.

 

[sgtfda]

Hal A modern stone map to a old treasure? The information would need to be old. Why make the stone map and dump it in the desert. Just go dig.

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal A modern stone map to a old treasure? The information would need to be old. Why make the stone map and dump it in the desert. Just go dig.

Why? Yes, why? Why do anything so "theatrical" and secretive in nature?
Any explanation that I could offer would only be a guess.
What about you? You and your Masonic friends in that little cabin up north way.
When you gentleman are not busy making toys for children, what do you do with your spare time?

You are making the assumption that what is "there" can be "dug up". I am just not sure yet.


One thing about your search area. Most, I am told, can be soil sampled.
A good sampling can validate your site and, in turn, your efforts. It might even go a long way to help in that eventual conversation with park officials.
That will not be easy.

My search area has been professionally sampled, with good results.
So, naturally, I believe that I am on the correct path.

 

[sgtfda]

Those that cleaned out the Pit mine over a three year period pulled it off. The Masonic Order does many things. They show the true path to enlightenment. Or should I say in this case guidance to the TRUE PATH and our HEARTS are in the right place. Perhaps those we follow on the TRUE PATH have shown their brother the way. Seek and you will find. Ask and it will be given. Look and you will see.