Hola amigos,
When I had posted my last reply here, Springfield's recent post did not appear, and it only appeared in the list today here. So my apologies for not responding to Springfield's comments, and have no idea why his post, nor any others which followed did not appear at this end until today.
Springfield wrote
That's a particularly interesting point because it seems to argue more against the existence of Waltz's mine than for it. The numerous savvy prospectors of the day (much better observers and explorers than us) were unable to locate Waltz's mine. Given the best of the most timely information available, they struck out. Of course, the rationalization for this failure has always been that the mine was so well hidden that it couldn't be found. This could be true, but it could also be true that this is a sure fire excuse for the fact that no mine exists.
The length of time that something is lost and goes un-found really is not proof of whether it exists or not. How long was the city of Troy lost, until found? Centuries. Many Greeks of the time of J. Caesar were convinced that the whole thing was mythical.
Can you enumerate that large number of 'savvy' prospectors that searched for the mine? I have to respectfully disagree on this, and point out that a good many of those whom have searched had NO experience in prospecting at all, Sims Ely had none - Jim Bark was a rancher, Julia Thomas a storekeeper, Reinhard Petrasch a boy with no experience, even Adolph Ruth was relying entirely on a map as his field of expertise was not in prospecting. It would be a mistake to assume that most of those whom have hunted the LDM were expert prospectors, regardless of time period. In fact now just as then, a good many are relying on clues, maps and luck and would not know a gold mine if they were standing on it.
<Oroblanco wrote earlier>
... Gold ore comes from a mine. Waltz told his closest friends that he had a mine, and pointed to the Superstitions to indicate where it is, even tried to take them to it once. I am sorry if this is not enough to prove the case for you (anyone reading this) but this is all you get...
Springfield wrote
It's really not much, is it?
It is considerably more than we get in many other lost mine legends, for example the Lost Adams, we have no gold specimen even
alleged to have come from his mine, and even Adams himself could not find it again. A paucity of strong evidence does not make something non-existent.
Springfield also wrote
Remember, Oro, I've never dismissed the possibility of a 'LDM'; I've merely stated that I haven't seen any evidence that would encourage me to go looking for it. Hiking the Superstitions 'in Waltz's footsteps' is a hobby. Chattering on the internet about the 'LDM' is a hobby. Committing to a long term physical search for a 'lost gold mine' without one-degree-separation from the truth is not a hobby - it's delusional in the mildest sense and borderline mental illness in the worst case.
Well that is one man's opinion of course. Some have proposed that being of a conservative mindset is a mild form of mental illness, which does not make it true, only an opinion. A scientist searching for a cure for an illness over decades without success then would be also a mild form of mental illness. Finding a cure for an illness is far more altruistic, but really it smacks of sour grapes to take the position that since the LDM is not found, then it must never have existed. You do not need the LDM for an excuse to hike and explore the Superstitions; in fact if you limit your hiking to just the sites linked to the Dutchman you are missing some of the more spectacular places, interesting and beautiful in their own right. At the other end of the argument, had Pete Petrasch successfully located the LDM after many years, he would be lauded today for his persistence, just as Mel Fisher is for finding the Atocha after many years searching.
Roadrunner wrote
I have some friends that live in Belle Fouche. I used to live in Rapid City,in Sturgis, and did some work in Spearfish Canyon.
Small world amigo - and I was living in SE AZ before moving here. We may well have crossed paths several times over the years.
Old Bookaroo wrote
Blair describes in detail the "retirement plan" Waltz did construct for himself with Andrew Starar [pgs. 61 & 62]. Was that logical for a person with a valuable gold mine?
You state this as if the gold mine were like a walk to the local bank, rather than a remote, well hidden and dangerous place which was difficult to get to, required breaking solid rock and hauling it out to get a cent out of it. Would an elderly man be able to make a "run" to the mine, crack out enough gold from the rock and get it out to pay for a nursing home? It was a fairly common practice in those times for people with no close relatives to make such arrangements in case their health failed them, for there was no social security nor medicare. You may also note that this arrangement was not carried out.
I don't wish to assail Blair over-much, but doesn't it indicate to you that he had a bias and either dropped the ball on failing to find Bicknell's articles (there were two) or perhaps chose not to find them? He did some excellent research, can't say that I agree with his conclusions.
Sarge wrote (to Old Bookaroo)
Hey bookaroo. A friend at the rendezvous suggested the damage to Ruth's skull looked like a mountain lion bite.
Old Bookaroo wrote
sgtfda:
I can't argue with that - I'm not an expert. It certainly would explain why the head and body were found apart from each other.
I think we can thank "Barry Storm" for the Adolph Ruth murder story.
Have to respectfully diagree on attributing the Ruth murder to Barry Storm, the Phoenix police in fact were convinced that they had identified the murderers; if you research this further you will find that one of the two men hired by Ruth to pack him in had told his girlfriend that he killed Ruth and took his map, which later came up in a court case. Storm merely helped spread the story. Ruth's body had also been moved before it was "officially" found too. Dr Hrdlicka stated that the wounds on the skull were from a gunshot, and he was considered an expert. Animals almost certainly gnawed on the remains after death, which does not make them the killers.
Hal Croves wrote
Wouldn't it be funny if both a Waltz and a Walzer were part of this story.
I don't think this can be discounted, especially if we consider the Anglo habit of distorting foreign names in pronunciation - so Waltz, Walz, Walzer, Weiser, Weisner, Wisner, Wiser, Weiss, we may have the same individual(s) being mistaken by the various spellings or mis-spellings. Walzer is not far from Waltz OR Weisner, really.
Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
