The Book Club

[Hal Croves]

Remember, Oro, I've never dismissed the possibility of a 'LDM'; I've merely stated that I haven't seen any evidence that would encourage me to go looking for it. Hiking the Superstitions 'in Waltz's footsteps' is a hobby. Chattering on the internet about the 'LDM' is a hobby. Committing to a long term physical search for a 'lost gold mine' without one-degree-separation from the truth is not a hobby - it's delusional in the mildest sense and borderline mental illness in the worst case.

I think that your quote is about as honest as it gets, however there is a fine line between mental illness and creative genius. The many theories and wild ideas being tossed around here are conceived in the core of our imaginations. What is questionable is that initial spark... its either childlike, innocent curiosity or something darker involving mans inherent greed. One will get you there and back in the Superstitions in relative safety while the other... well its like hiking blindfolded.

View attachment 889332

Fred C. Dobbs might be the perfect literary example.

View attachment 889339

But episode #22 of M.A.S.H offers the same lesson with a comical nod to Dobbs.
​

 

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[Old Bookaroo]

Friends:

From Robert Blair's excellent Tales of the Superstitions; The Origins of the Lost Dutchman Legend (1975):

"The inside of the place [Waltz's home] was bare, except for an old iron stove, an old cot, an old kitchen table, and a couple of drygoods boxes that served as chairs. Into a wall he had jabbed an old miner's candleholder, and on another wall his canteen hung from a nail. His shovels and picks and other prospecting equipment always were shoved under his cot. Everything about the place indicated want and poverty." [pg. 61 - Paperback edition.]

On another level, the fact that Waltz was an elderly gentleman who had attempted to make his living as a prospector is a strong indication he spent his declining years in poverty. A generalization, of course - but an accurate one. Nineteenth and early Twentieth Century prospectors didn't have 401(k) plans.

Blair describes in detail the "retirement plan" Waltz did construct for himself with Andrew Starar [pgs. 61 & 62]. Was that logical for a person with a valuable gold mine?

Or we can look at the origins of the Lost Dutchman legend. Blair couldn't locate Bicknells' seminal newspaper article on the subject - but he was looking in the files for the wrong year.

In at least two different ways it isn't fair to Robert Blair to quote parts of his book. In my view, and I've been at this for a while, it presents a persuasive, documented case for the LDM being a myth. Certainly many have sought it - from the time of Waltz's death to Adolph Ruth (whom, by the way, I don't believe was murdered) to today. I know a man who lost his home, his other worldly assets, his health, his family and eventually his life digging through solid rock, convinced he had the clues that would lead to the LDM. He didn't.

Good luck to all,

~The Old Bookaroo

 

[sgtfda]

Hey bookaroo. A friend at the rendezvous suggested the damage to Ruth's skull looked like a mountain lion bite.

 

[Hal Croves]

Blair describes in detail the "retirement plan" Waltz did construct for himself with Andrew Starar [pgs. 61 & 62]. Was that logical for a person with a valuable gold mine?

In my view, and I've been at this for a while, it presents a persuasive, documented case for the LDM being a myth.

Good luck to all,

~The Old Bookaroo

Wouldn't it be funny if both a Waltz and a Walzer were part of this story. Like James Addison Reavis (the Barron) and Elisha Marcus Reavis (the hermit).
Not inconceivable.

 

[Old Bookaroo]

sgtfda:

I can't argue with that - I'm not an expert. It certainly would explain why the head and body were found apart from each other.

I think we can thank "Barry Storm" for the Adolph Ruth murder story.

Good luck to all,

~The Old Bookaroo

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

well, just to stir some .....

I had a trip coming home...my friend, fred grew up in payson, son of a pioneer family...80 some odd years old...
so this moring, going out to fetch the dead f-150...he asks about the weekend..so I give him the short story of the Dutchman...

he comments: oh yea...I heard about that from tom barkeys son who I went to high school with....
jaw drop...he is gong through chemo just now, and his memory is diminishing..but damn...what a thing to hear...I didn't know the barkeys ended up in Giselia Arizona...
and here, my friend went to school with a barkley...but he goes on telling me about his high school days with toms son....
wonderful.
strange how things work.

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigos,
When I had posted my last reply here, Springfield's recent post did not appear, and it only appeared in the list today here. So my apologies for not responding to Springfield's comments, and have no idea why his post, nor any others which followed did not appear at this end until today.

Springfield wrote

That's a particularly interesting point because it seems to argue more against the existence of Waltz's mine than for it. The numerous savvy prospectors of the day (much better observers and explorers than us) were unable to locate Waltz's mine. Given the best of the most timely information available, they struck out. Of course, the rationalization for this failure has always been that the mine was so well hidden that it couldn't be found. This could be true, but it could also be true that this is a sure fire excuse for the fact that no mine exists.

The length of time that something is lost and goes un-found really is not proof of whether it exists or not. How long was the city of Troy lost, until found? Centuries. Many Greeks of the time of J. Caesar were convinced that the whole thing was mythical.

Can you enumerate that large number of 'savvy' prospectors that searched for the mine? I have to respectfully disagree on this, and point out that a good many of those whom have searched had NO experience in prospecting at all, Sims Ely had none - Jim Bark was a rancher, Julia Thomas a storekeeper, Reinhard Petrasch a boy with no experience, even Adolph Ruth was relying entirely on a map as his field of expertise was not in prospecting. It would be a mistake to assume that most of those whom have hunted the LDM were expert prospectors, regardless of time period. In fact now just as then, a good many are relying on clues, maps and luck and would not know a gold mine if they were standing on it.

<Oroblanco wrote earlier>

... Gold ore comes from a mine. Waltz told his closest friends that he had a mine, and pointed to the Superstitions to indicate where it is, even tried to take them to it once. I am sorry if this is not enough to prove the case for you (anyone reading this) but this is all you get...

Springfield wrote

It's really not much, is it?

It is considerably more than we get in many other lost mine legends, for example the Lost Adams, we have no gold specimen even alleged to have come from his mine, and even Adams himself could not find it again. A paucity of strong evidence does not make something non-existent.

Springfield also wrote

Remember, Oro, I've never dismissed the possibility of a 'LDM'; I've merely stated that I haven't seen any evidence that would encourage me to go looking for it. Hiking the Superstitions 'in Waltz's footsteps' is a hobby. Chattering on the internet about the 'LDM' is a hobby. Committing to a long term physical search for a 'lost gold mine' without one-degree-separation from the truth is not a hobby - it's delusional in the mildest sense and borderline mental illness in the worst case.

Well that is one man's opinion of course. Some have proposed that being of a conservative mindset is a mild form of mental illness, which does not make it true, only an opinion. A scientist searching for a cure for an illness over decades without success then would be also a mild form of mental illness. Finding a cure for an illness is far more altruistic, but really it smacks of sour grapes to take the position that since the LDM is not found, then it must never have existed. You do not need the LDM for an excuse to hike and explore the Superstitions; in fact if you limit your hiking to just the sites linked to the Dutchman you are missing some of the more spectacular places, interesting and beautiful in their own right. At the other end of the argument, had Pete Petrasch successfully located the LDM after many years, he would be lauded today for his persistence, just as Mel Fisher is for finding the Atocha after many years searching.

Roadrunner wrote

I have some friends that live in Belle Fouche. I used to live in Rapid City,in Sturgis, and did some work in Spearfish Canyon.

Small world amigo - and I was living in SE AZ before moving here. We may well have crossed paths several times over the years.

Old Bookaroo wrote

Blair describes in detail the "retirement plan" Waltz did construct for himself with Andrew Starar [pgs. 61 & 62]. Was that logical for a person with a valuable gold mine?

You state this as if the gold mine were like a walk to the local bank, rather than a remote, well hidden and dangerous place which was difficult to get to, required breaking solid rock and hauling it out to get a cent out of it. Would an elderly man be able to make a "run" to the mine, crack out enough gold from the rock and get it out to pay for a nursing home? It was a fairly common practice in those times for people with no close relatives to make such arrangements in case their health failed them, for there was no social security nor medicare. You may also note that this arrangement was not carried out.

I don't wish to assail Blair over-much, but doesn't it indicate to you that he had a bias and either dropped the ball on failing to find Bicknell's articles (there were two) or perhaps chose not to find them? He did some excellent research, can't say that I agree with his conclusions.

Sarge wrote (to Old Bookaroo)

Hey bookaroo. A friend at the rendezvous suggested the damage to Ruth's skull looked like a mountain lion bite.

Old Bookaroo wrote

sgtfda:

I can't argue with that - I'm not an expert. It certainly would explain why the head and body were found apart from each other.

I think we can thank "Barry Storm" for the Adolph Ruth murder story.

Have to respectfully diagree on attributing the Ruth murder to Barry Storm, the Phoenix police in fact were convinced that they had identified the murderers; if you research this further you will find that one of the two men hired by Ruth to pack him in had told his girlfriend that he killed Ruth and took his map, which later came up in a court case. Storm merely helped spread the story. Ruth's body had also been moved before it was "officially" found too. Dr Hrdlicka stated that the wounds on the skull were from a gunshot, and he was considered an expert. Animals almost certainly gnawed on the remains after death, which does not make them the killers.

Hal Croves wrote

Wouldn't it be funny if both a Waltz and a Walzer were part of this story.

I don't think this can be discounted, especially if we consider the Anglo habit of distorting foreign names in pronunciation - so Waltz, Walz, Walzer, Weiser, Weisner, Wisner, Wiser, Weiss, we may have the same individual(s) being mistaken by the various spellings or mis-spellings. Walzer is not far from Waltz OR Weisner, really.

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

pippin is somewhat disturbed that the oroblanco's did not attend this year...meeting them was one of my desires.{still is actually...}

 

[Springfield]

... The length of time that something is lost and goes un-found really is not proof of whether it exists or not. How long was the city of Troy lost, until found? Centuries. Many Greeks of the time of J. Caesar were convinced that the whole thing was mythical ...

You're right, but Troy's rumor-monger was Homer, not exactly a slouch. I doubt there will be LDM searchers active 3,000 years from now. Of course, I could be wrong.

...Can you enumerate that large number of 'savvy' prospectors that searched for the mine? I have to respectfully disagree on this, and point out that a good many of those whom have searched had NO experience in prospecting at all, Sims Ely had none - Jim Bark was a rancher, Julia Thomas a storekeeper, Reinhard Petrasch a boy with no experience, even Adolph Ruth was relying entirely on a map as his field of expertise was not in prospecting. It would be a mistake to assume that most of those whom have hunted the LDM were expert prospectors, regardless of time period. In fact now just as then, a good many are relying on clues, maps and luck and would not know a gold mine if they were standing on it...

No, I can't identify any prospectors. However, it sure seems like any of them worth their salt pork would have had a try at the 'richest mine in the world'. If not many prospectors were interested, what does that tell you?

... It is considerably more than we get in many other lost mine legends, for example the Lost Adams, we have no gold specimen even alleged to have come from his mine, and even Adams himself could not find it again. A paucity of strong evidence does not make something non-existent.

Lost Adams? We don't even have an Adams to start with.

... but really it smacks of sour grapes to take the position that since the LDM is not found, then it must never have existed...

I didn't take that position. Here's what I said, "Remember, Oro, I've never dismissed the possibility of a 'LDM'; I've merely stated that I haven't seen any evidence that would encourage me to go looking for it."

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

so springfield...have you ever walked in those mountians...see a sign pointing > mineral deposits here?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'd afternoon still dripping nose all over the keyboard from the flue - got it from oro in a pm. . A few points that I feel that I must put my two cents in on ---

A) on experienced prospectors, as oro said, none are mentioned, but like the legend itself, that does not preclude hoards of them either. On Troy there were many pros researching it with negative results yet rumors abound of others trying to trail him.

B) I don't suppose that I should bore you but many of the seekers of Tayopa, with far less data, were experienced miners, from Engr's to muckers, even Jesuits themselves.. yet ??

C) on Ruth's skull, it is extremely easy to differentiate between an animals bite an a 'relative' hi speed projectile, (450 fps on )as sgt can easily confirm. He was shot according to the pictures that I saw.

D) living in poverty in those days ? a comfortable cabin etc., was not considered as being in poverty. Many times on the trail I was very glad to escape the elements for the night in a brush covered Indians home. It was almost luxurious to stretch out with no wind or rain checking for your weakest exposed points brrr. and oro's and mine, favorite coffee pot bubbling gently on the stove, whether of cast iron or simply rocks.

There is a huge difference between sleeping in the open and a simple shelter of any kind, His cabin sounds quite comfortable to me.

Most of these types of stories originated from factual data, today not provable because loss of any documents which may have been relatively available in those days, say in a possible letter or drunken talk in a saloon from one of those that tried to trail him??

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

eat more chilies don jose...cayenne cures the common cold{I am sure you know this}...

 

[Springfield]

so springfield...have you ever walked in those mountians...see a sign pointing > mineral deposits here?

No, pwp, I've never set foot in the Superstitions. No reason to - I've got a few million acres of spectacular wilderness here to mess around in. Your mineral deposits question - means what?

 

[roadrunner]

August 8, 1878.
5 pm at the courthouse.
Pages 322-325,Book 3 of Deeds, Maricopa county courthouse,Waltz was 68.
Signed everything he owned,over to Andrew starar. Everything.Chickens,horse(s0,wagons,everything he owend.Prospecting equipment.

There is a picture of this document on page 44.
Shows his and Andrews signature.

So in my opinion,
So,all he had to do was get a younger man,blinfold him 1 mile from the mine.
Get to the mine,un blind fold him.
Get the ore.
Blindfold him back 1 mile.
Then un blindfold him for the return home.
He said I thought that the ore was very easy to get out.
Just a pick or hammer it would fall out of the rock.

 

[Oroblanco]

Pippinwhitepaws wrote

somewhat disturbed that the oroblanco's did not attend this year

I am sorry we did not make it this year, we were looking forward to it very much; I would still like to meet you too, as well as several other friends (like Gollum for instance) that I have never had the pleasure to meet yet.

Springfield wrote

I doubt there will be LDM searchers active 3,000 years from now. Of course, I could be wrong.

Well for a simile, people are still hunting King Solomon's mines, over 3000 years lost. Unless someone finds it <the LDM>, if the source texts remain, it is possible that someone may be looking even so far in the future.

Springfield also wrote

No, I can't identify any prospectors. However, it sure seems like any of them worth their salt pork would have had a try at the 'richest mine in the world'. If not many prospectors were interested, what does that tell you?

The Superstitions are not exactly a promsing area to find precious metals, which would discourage most prospectors without any lost mine involved. As there have been literally tens of thousands whom have searched the mountains I don't think we can safely say how many were really experienced prospectors, though a good many were far from it.

Springfield also wrote

Lost Adams? We don't even have an Adams to start with.

We have two Adams, one Henry Adams with a trading post in the Navajo reservation, and one whom was certainly going by the name of Adams on various expeditions to re-locate the mine. As this would be drifting very far off-topic, I will save the rest on this for another thread.

Springfield also wrote

I didn't take that position. Here's what I said, <snip>

I did not say that you had taken that position, here is what I said "...but really it smacks of sour grapes to take the position that since the LDM is not found, then it must never have existed. " This does not say that you, personally have taken that position, only that to take that position is rather like sour grapes.

Pippinwhitepaws wrote

so springfield...have you ever walked in those mountians...see a sign pointing > mineral deposits here?

and Springfield replied,

No, pwp, I've never set foot in the Superstitions.<snip>

I think Pip got that impression as I did, from your earlier post, which said

<Springfield wrote earlier>

Hiking the Superstitions 'in Waltz's footsteps' is a hobby. Chattering on the internet about the 'LDM' is a hobby.

as you do chat about the LDM, it appeared that you also go hiking in the Superstitions as a hobby.

Roadrunner wrote

So,all he had to do was get a younger man,blinfold him 1 mile from the mine.
Get to the mine,un blind fold him.
Get the ore.
Blindfold him back 1 mile.
Then un blindfold him for the return home.

Sounds like an excellent plan, if you have a younger man you can trust. Remember, Waltz had befriended young Reinhard Petrasch and Reiney then proceeded to cheat him on selling a gold nugget, which Waltz caught him in, proving that he could not be trusted. Phoenix seems to have more than a few un-trustworthy people in that day. Also Waltz had the experience of getting his partner killed at the mine (or so he believed, and apparently Weiser likewise believed that Waltz had been killed) so it seems logical that this would also be a factor before trusting someone or putting another person at such risks. Perhaps, if Reiney had not decided to cheat his friend, he might have been entrusted more than he was?

Roadrunner also wrote

He said I thought that the ore was very easy to get out.
Just a pick or hammer it would fall out of the rock.

I do not know where that exact description of the ore originates, <Joe Deering perhaps?> but do know what it is like to try to break gold out of solid rock, it is very hard work. The surface can be fairly loose and friable, will break easily even to your bare hand but after you get past the surface that has been exposed to the weather, it can be quite solid. I would not expect Waltz's mine to be easy digging.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek. If anything I posted is offensive, my apologies, no offense was intended, and much of this hunting for lost mines involves personal opinions and beliefs, which in my opinion has NO bearing on friendships.
Oroblanco

PS to Don Jose de la Mancha - see what happens when you don't get your annual dose of mercury in your flu shot? They don't call them "computer virus" for nothing!

 

[roadrunner]

No offense taken by me. I actually think if there was a mine, it is not the area around weavers.
I am looking at another area. For a couple of reasons.

 

[sgtfda]

Smart man, better late than never.

 

[Hal Croves]

August 8, 1878.
5 pm at the courthouse.
Pages 322-325,Book 3 of Deeds, Maricopa county courthouse,Waltz was 68.
Signed everything he owned,over to Andrew starar. Everything.Chickens,horse(s0,wagons,everything he owend.Prospecting equipment.

There is a picture of this document on page 44.
Shows his and Andrews signature.

So in my opinion,
So,all he had to do was get a younger man,blinfold him 1 mile from the mine.
Get to the mine,un blind fold him.
Get the ore.
Blindfold him back 1 mile.
Then un blindfold him for the return home.
He said I thought that the ore was very easy to get out.
Just a pick or hammer it would fall out of the rock.

roadrunner,
So, based on what you have found on pages 322-325, how would you describe the relationship between the Starars and Waltz?
Is it fair to assume that they had developed a certain level of friendship and mutual trust?

Now have a look at this list of names from the Salt River Valley Town Association which was organized on Oct. 20, 1870. These are the men who would have had the chance to know Waltz personally in his lifetime. These were the fathers of Phoenix. Higham mentions several of these names in connection to the legend and to Dutchman himself. So, there is some foundation for truth in Higham's work. Just how much was altered/changed in later editions (under Barneys control) I can not say until I see the first edition.

My point.... these men did know each other and a few were quite close. Many on this list were also deeply involved in Freemasonry.. a fact. Higham's work while poorly executed is worth a second read.

And as far as Jacob Wisner is concerned, there was a man named Jacob Wisner in the territory at the time. He was a veteran of the Civil War and by chance a carpenter. He eventually returned east to his birthplace, where he rests today.

Noticeably absent from this list is Jack Swilling who, soon after this meeting, place his Phoenix land holdings up for sale and eventually relocated (by 1873?).

Darrell Duppa
Wm. B. Hellings & Co.
Barnett and Block
Thomas Barnum
James Murphy
John T. Dennis
William A. Holmes
James M. Buck
Jacob Starar
John T. Alsap
Columbus H. Gray
Martin P. Griffin
James McC. Elliot
J. P. Perry
William Rowe
Michael Connell
Daniel Twomey
Charles C. McDermott
Edward Irvine
John P. Osborn
Andrew Starar
Paul Becker
James D. Monihon


Waltz was already an old man when he reached Phoenix. The fact that he ever ventured into the uncharted Superstitions is for me a testimony to his character. They made them extra tough back then. But, blindfolding a younger man, leading him to the site... I don't believe that that was in his nature. Just think about how possessive we are today with the tidbits of information we each uncover about the legend and all things Superstitions related. And really, none of it has made anyone rich... publicly anyway.

 

[Springfield]

... Well for a simile, people are still hunting King Solomon's mines, over 3000 years lost. Unless someone finds it <the LDM>, if the source texts remain, it is possible that someone may be looking even so far in the future...

Now that's an intriguing association, eh? Likely unintended based on the tenor of your list of LDM arguments, but fresh nonetheless. Freudian slip?

I know you're an ardent believer in this LDM legend, Oro, and your beliefs may someday be vindicated. If so, I'll admit I should have had more faith. Of course, I could always jump into the wagon if a true smoking gun ever surfaces.

 

[Old Bookaroo]

"Experienced prospectors?"

Blair offers on one page Dr. W.W. Jones, Simon Novinger, Darrel Duppa, and the interesting P.c. Bicknell - an interesting combination of prospector and journalist and newspaper editor.

Oro - you wrote that Bicknell wrote two LDM articles published in San Francisco newspapers. Would you please be so kind as to share the dates of those? I'm only aware of one.

Good luck to all,

~The Old Bookaroo