The Book Club

[Hal Croves]

sgtfda,

That last post is very confusing to those of us who have taken the effort and time to study the teachings and symbolism of masonry.

You have stated in the past that for you, Masonry is off limits for discussion, which was a disappointment as there is a Masonic chapter in the history of early Phoenix (Walzer's time) and it should be part of the conversation.

I recently finished a book by Gary A. David who makes the claim that Jacob "Waltz" was a mason, or in someway connected to masonry. David does not identify his source and he did not respond to any of my emails asking for an explanation. That is never a good sign.

What do you think about the possibility of the Dutchman belonging to one of the fraternal orders?

 

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[lost]

When one is reading a post, in any type of forum covering any discussion under the sun, and you read either of the words Mason or KGC, it's time to hit Right Click Go Back and move on and never come back. No good will ever come from reading further.

 

[Springfield]

When one is reading a post, in any type of forum covering any discussion under the sun, and you read either of the words Mason or KGC, it's time to hit Right Click Go Back and move on and never come back. No good will ever come from reading further.

'Lost'. Perfect choice.

 

[Springfield]

It all the same Lucifer, Satan or the Devil.

You're just kidding. Right?

 

[Hal Croves]

When one is reading a post, in any type of forum covering any discussion under the sun, and you read either of the words Mason or KGC, it's time to hit Right Click Go Back and move on and never come back. No good will ever come from reading further.

lost,
If you think that you can simply ignore historical fact, in this case the roll of fraternal organizations in the settlement of Phoenix, you are always going to be one step behind. There may be a connection to the Dutchman, there may not be, but dismissing the possibility outright is just foolish.

This site is about the Dutchman and if there is a Masonic connection, then I believe that it (the topic) should be part of the conversation.

 

[sgtfda]

Just rattling bullwinkles chain Springfield. Hal most Masonic lodges during that time period had their own burial sections. If you needed a plot it was provided. I belong to one of the oldest lodges in the country. I could not tell you who was a member 50 years ago let alone during that time period. Unless you were a well known member such as George Washington the information is long gone.

 

[somehiker]

Hi Frank:

Hal's right. You're a Mason, and you ARE interested in prospecting for gold.
Therefore, if JW was also a Mason, it might prove he too was a prospector who was interested in gold.
And that he might have known some other Masons out there.
Not sure what else it might prove, though.

Best:Wayne

 

[Hal Croves]

Back to Barnard for a moment.

Barney claims that a man named Jacob Wisner (a carpenter) had partnered with the Dutchman from 1877 until 1879, but it seems that his very exisence is in question. In the book "Wisners In America", there is listed a Jacob S. Wisner (residence Exeter, Scott Co, IL) who served in Company B, 27th Regiment, Illinois Infantry. Jacob enlisted on August 12, 1861 and was mustered in as a private on August 16, 1861 in Springfield, IL. He was 31, five feet six inches with brown hair, blue eyes, a "sandy" complexion... occupation: carpenter. On June 6th, 1862 Wisner joined Company F, 54th Illinois Infantry in Paris, Illinois. Muster in May 29th, 1863. Mustered out June 9th, 1865 at Devils Bluff, AR.

Now, I will admit that the chance of this being the correct Jacob Wisner is a longshot, however what can not be ignored is the fact that on May 20th, 1891, the same Wisner, Jacob S. filed for a U.S. Civil War Pension (application 1022713, certificate no. 738827). State From Which Filed: Arizona.

A closer look at that application may tell us quite a bit or perhaps rule out this Jacob Wisner.

 

[Ellie Baba]

When one is reading a post, in any type of forum covering any discussion under the sun, and you read either of the words Mason or KGC, it's time to hit Right Click Go Back and move on and never come back. No good will ever come from reading further.

Now I understand why you picked the handle "LOST", you really are. Anyway if you actually click: go back, never to return, then what I write will be in vain. For I will always wonder why you chose that name.

Don Jose, a lament for the unknown por favor...

Ellie B (I can play taps if you wish)

 

[Hal Croves]

Ellie,
Sometimes I wonder what the actual motivation is behind declarations like that made by lost. Is he being sincere, honestly not understanding the roll of fraternal orders in the settling of Phoenix, or is this an intentional distraction? But why would it be intentional? Makes little sense.

sgtfda,
I don't mean this to read as disrespectful, because it is certainly not meant to be, but obtaining membership records (even from one of the oldest lodges) would not be an impossible task. Unfortunately, or fortunately (for some) lodges close and records find their way to market.

somehiker,
It doesn't "prove" anything. For a few of us, its about being able to see the larger historical picture. Who was JW, when & how did he come to Arizona Territory, who were the people closest to him and how did they live their lives? It is a complicated puzzle and the pieces have all been scattered. It should come as no surprise if Jacob Walzer proves to have been a Mason, or other. Nothing mysterious, or conspiratorial about it, just historical context. Like Jacob being pro-republican.

 

[Azhiker]

Hal Croves wrote :

"For a few of us, its about being able to see the larger historical picture. Who was JW, when & how did he come to Arizona Territory, who were the people closest to him and how did they live their lives?"

I'm not sure if you have access to the, Superstition Mountain Historical Society Journal (Superstition Mountain Museum Apache Junction, Arizona). In the most recent SMHS Journal, an article appears concerning the life of Jacob Waltz. It details all the recorded documentation of Waltz's life from his arrival in America to his death in 1891. Census, court, newspaper articles, great registers, voting lists, petitions, obituary, naturalization records and others are listed in order.

The documented events of his life are listed in chronological order so you can track his movements and ages as each event is recorded. Each event represents an official recorded event in his life. It's a great place to start for anyone learning about who the man was. The Museum which sells the Journal has a webpage and you can order the Journal through the Museum's sales office.

Azhiker

 

[sgtfda]

Wayne I will keep a all seeing eye out for a special sign.

 

[somehiker]

'Specially the sign above, Frank
The one that says "lookee here".....

 

[Cubfan64]

Hal Croves wrote :

"For a few of us, its about being able to see the larger historical picture. Who was JW, when & how did he come to Arizona Territory, who were the people closest to him and how did they live their lives?"

I'm not sure if you have access to the, Superstition Mountain Historical Society Journal (Superstition Mountain Museum Apache Junction, Arizona). In the most recent SMHS Journal, an article appears concerning the life of Jacob Waltz. It details all the recorded documentation of Waltz's life from his arrival in America to his death in 1891. Census, court, newspaper articles, great registers, voting lists, petitions, obituary, naturalization records and others are listed in order.

The documented events of his life are listed in chronological order so you can track his movements and ages as each event is recorded. Each event represents an official recorded event in his life. It's a great place to start for anyone learning about who the man was. The Museum which sells the Journal has a webpage and you can order the Journal through the Museum's sales office.

Azhiker

AZhiker - while you're correct that the chronological documentation exists and paints a pretty good picture of Waltz's travels and some life specifics, we're still pretty much at a loss as to when he really came to America, where exactly he came from and what his history and family history was before he came here.

The other portions of his life that are quite lacking are the periods between when he arrived (183?-1848?) and 1848-1861 or so. Those are pretty big portions of life and despite it having little impact on any mine he may have had in the Superstitions, curious history hunters such as myself (and I believe Hal and a few others) can't help but be curious as to what can be discovered.

I suspect somewhere in some little town files there are tax records or other items of interest that include Jacob Waltz(er?) just waiting to be discovered.

 

[Hal Croves]

Azhiker,

Thank you. I will add that one to my list of reading. The thing is, I believe that Jacob Walzer is the correct name and that he arrived in the United States in 1861. Did he use "Waltz" at some point after his arrival in New York? Absolutely, and it would not have been incorrect to do so.

"Spelling variations of the name Walzer include Walser, Walzer, Walsser, Walleser, Walsen Waltz, Waltzer.....". Perhaps the use of Waltz was simple laziness or frustration.

"Walzer: South German and Jewish (Ashkenazic): occupational name, a reduced form of Walzenmüller, denoting a miller (see Mueller) who milled by means of rollers, Middle High German walze, German Walze ‘roller’."

This is the Dutchman that I am after.

 

[wrmickel1]

Azhiker,

Thank you. I will add that one to my list of reading. The thing is, I believe that Jacob Walzer is the correct name and that he arrived in the United States in 1861. Did he use "Waltz" at some point after his arrival in New York? Absolutely, and it would not have been incorrect to do so.

"Spelling variations of the name Walzer include Walser, Walzer, Walsser, Walleser, Walsen Waltz, Waltzer.....". Perhaps the use of Waltz was simple laziness or frustration.

"Walzer: South German and Jewish (Ashkenazic): occupational name, a reduced form of Walzenmüller, denoting a miller (see Mueller) who milled by means of rollers, Middle High German walze, German Walze ‘roller’."

This is the Dutchman that I am after.

Hal

I thought Waltz entered the US from the Gulf of Mexico to meet a sister in Alabama'
or something like that.

Wrmickel1

 

[Hal Croves]

No, The Jacob Walzer that I am researching arrived at Castle Garden on June 16, 1861. Chasing Jacob Waltz in the United States before that year will get you to where we are now. This is just my opinion but I would be willing to bet on it.

Remember, as an immigrant in 1861, one needed to have a valid final destination when arriving in NY. No one left the Castle Garden facility without a train ticket to where ever it was that they were going or a local address. Jacob, I believe had a reason to remain in NY until moving west in 62' or early 63'.

 

[Hal Croves]

Cubfan64,
I think that you have it right about where the next scrap of clue will come from. I am researching voter rights in territorial AZ, hoping to understand if someone with Walzer's status would have qualified to vote in local or national elections. Walzer appears to have been pro-republican and was reported to always make an appearance in Phoenix at election time. Once I have an understanding of the laws at that time, the next step will be a look at the voter registration files from 64' to 91'. I am hoping that someone here has already looked and will write about it.

 

[Azhiker]

Cubfan64,

Yes, the SMHS Journal article only touches on the official documentation and leaves the parts that are not documented, blank. I only mentioned it as a starting point for someone to build upon and possibly fill in those blanks.

I agree with you, there are more records but they are probably hidden or misfiled or resting in private researcher(s) private libraries and will not see the light of day until these researcher(s) either decide to share the items or they are discovered among their belongings after they are gone.

Azhiker

 

[Azhiker]

Hal Croves,

Some voter registration records have survived for Phoenix Maricopa County Arizona Territory but they do not state if the persons are Democrat, Republican or other.

Azhiker