Hal Croves
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sgtfda,
I thought that you would appreciate seeing this.
I thought that you would appreciate seeing this.
The Book Club
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cactusjumper
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Paul,
What Az...writes here is very true. For myself, I can hardly wait for someone to come forward with "manuscripts and notes from new sources-the amazing diaries of pioneer families......". Of course, we would all hope that such "new" information would be authentic and not from someone's fertile imagination.
Take care,
Joe
sgtfda
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Hal Croves said:
Nice
pippinwhitepaws
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it has been my experience studing southwest history, there is a period between the war of 1848, an the founding of fort whipple, a distinct lack of research material.
many 'little towns' had flood/fire and theft delete their archives.
diaries are the hope of most southwestern historians.
{for the conspiratorial types..refer to the committee of fifty}...
many 'little towns' had flood/fire and theft delete their archives.
diaries are the hope of most southwestern historians.
{for the conspiratorial types..refer to the committee of fifty}...
cactusjumper
Gold Member
Don,
I would agree with what you just wrote, but you may have noticed that I had a portion of my post in quotation marks. The book I am quoting is Helen Corbins "Bible....." In that case, it's pretty well known that much of the information in that book was created out of whole cloth by her source. I guess I am one of the "conspiratorial types".
Take care,
Joe
I would agree with what you just wrote, but you may have noticed that I had a portion of my post in quotation marks. The book I am quoting is Helen Corbins "Bible....." In that case, it's pretty well known that much of the information in that book was created out of whole cloth by her source. I guess I am one of the "conspiratorial types".
Take care,
Joe
pippinwhitepaws
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sorry, not enough coffee...still seeing double.
have you researched the committee of fifty joe? interesting lack of information on such famous people.
don dedra commented on the lack of accurate information in arizona archives, when researching his book, "a little war of our own." he also commented on the hope of diaries emerging into public...
have you researched the committee of fifty joe? interesting lack of information on such famous people.
don dedra commented on the lack of accurate information in arizona archives, when researching his book, "a little war of our own." he also commented on the hope of diaries emerging into public...
cactusjumper
Gold Member
Don,
I have never looked up "committee of fifty".
I would love to see "authentic" pioneer diaries and unpublished notes and manuscripts. Unfortunately, what we have been provided lately, is made up history that one source provided to Dr. Glover as well as Helen Corbin. They accepted what he provided because they trusted him. They were not alone in that misplaced trust.
That person is still among us........and has been posting again.
Take care,
Joe
I have never looked up "committee of fifty".
I would love to see "authentic" pioneer diaries and unpublished notes and manuscripts. Unfortunately, what we have been provided lately, is made up history that one source provided to Dr. Glover as well as Helen Corbin. They accepted what he provided because they trusted him. They were not alone in that misplaced trust.
That person is still among us........and has been posting again.
Take care,
Joe
pippinwhitepaws
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don dedra speaks of a diary, old school family out by holbrook...but was not allowed to view:this diary relates to the pleasant valley war.
is the name of the forger mark hoffman?
Mormon: Mark Hofmann - Fooled the Mormon Prophets and Apostles
a friend of mine was on this guys list of people who could expose his forgeries.
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/criminal_mind/forensics/mormon_forgeries/index.html
is the name of the forger mark hoffman?
Mormon: Mark Hofmann - Fooled the Mormon Prophets and Apostles
a friend of mine was on this guys list of people who could expose his forgeries.
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/criminal_mind/forensics/mormon_forgeries/index.html
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cactusjumper
Gold Member
Don,
No that is not his name but, like Hoffman, he knew enough history to weave a false story into true historical facts. As you have stated, many people wanted to believe him. Some, despite the evidence to the contrary, still believe him.
The Mormon Church no longer has an official place where the Book Of Mormon took place.....That I know of. That is because they have been too quick to accept questionable archaeology in the past.
Joe
No that is not his name but, like Hoffman, he knew enough history to weave a false story into true historical facts. As you have stated, many people wanted to believe him. Some, despite the evidence to the contrary, still believe him.
The Mormon Church no longer has an official place where the Book Of Mormon took place.....That I know of. That is because they have been too quick to accept questionable archaeology in the past.
Joe
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Ellie Baba
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Hal,
The answer is quite simple...ignorance. Hal, go to the Maricopa County Recorder's Office Maricopa County Recorder Elections Department and search recorded documents 1871 - 1946. Enter the name of either Jacob or Andrew Starar (search all documents) some mining claims have not been listed as such. The Starars and Jacob were good friends and involved in mining ventures. Jacob Waltz witnessed a mining claim sale in Pinal County, Territory of Arizona. Seach to determine where the mining district mentioned may have been located.
Also check out King S. Woolsey (ca. 1832 - June 30, 1879) was an American pioneer, rancher, Indian-fighter, prospector, Mason and politician in 19th century Arizona. He just happens to be burried next to a good friend by the name of Jacob Waltz.
I just love researching historical records!
We will all be very busy pretty soon.
Ellie Baba
Hal, Ellie Baba,
If you look up the Starrar brothers mining claim transfer Jacob Waltz signed his name to, you will find it recorded in Pima County, Arizona Territory, the "Ducharty" mine. But you were correct in saying the mine is actually in Pinal county today.
That is because when the Starrar recorded the claim, Pinal County had not been formed yet and it was then in Pima county. The mine is located near Cherry creek. Many of those old records are confusing and you have to put yourself back in that time period to sort them out. Otherwise you interpret the information incorrectly.
Jacob Waltz was buried in the City section of the Phoenix cemetery. Just a little ways west of the Masonic section. If he was a Mason, why wasn't he buried in the Masonic section ? Just because he was not buried in the Masonic section is not proof that he was not a Mason. The circumstances of his death and exactly who buried him might have overlooked that fact. So nothing can be taken for granted when researching what happened back then and why. Many people think they have all the answer to everything because they either read something or interpret it the way they do. They don't realize their incorrect interpretations are what is causing them to believe or disbelieve things.
Azhiker
If you look up the Starrar brothers mining claim transfer Jacob Waltz signed his name to, you will find it recorded in Pima County, Arizona Territory, the "Ducharty" mine. But you were correct in saying the mine is actually in Pinal county today.
That is because when the Starrar recorded the claim, Pinal County had not been formed yet and it was then in Pima county. The mine is located near Cherry creek. Many of those old records are confusing and you have to put yourself back in that time period to sort them out. Otherwise you interpret the information incorrectly.
Jacob Waltz was buried in the City section of the Phoenix cemetery. Just a little ways west of the Masonic section. If he was a Mason, why wasn't he buried in the Masonic section ? Just because he was not buried in the Masonic section is not proof that he was not a Mason. The circumstances of his death and exactly who buried him might have overlooked that fact. So nothing can be taken for granted when researching what happened back then and why. Many people think they have all the answer to everything because they either read something or interpret it the way they do. They don't realize their incorrect interpretations are what is causing them to believe or disbelieve things.
Azhiker
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Ellie Baba
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Please follow directions
Pinal County was formed Feb. 1, 1875 from parts of Maricopa and Pima counties. Name may have been derived from the Pinal Apaches or from the pine groves in the lofty mountains (Will C. Barnes, Arizona Place Names.)
If you would have followed my directions it would have not been necessary to write the above post explaining my error. The document that I am referring to was recorded in Maricopa County in the year of 1883. Jacob Waltz died in 1891.
Attention to detail my friend; I too learned the hard way, so I am not getting down on you, for even your information may be reliable.
Ellie B.
Pinal County was formed Feb. 1, 1875 from parts of Maricopa and Pima counties. Name may have been derived from the Pinal Apaches or from the pine groves in the lofty mountains (Will C. Barnes, Arizona Place Names.)
If you would have followed my directions it would have not been necessary to write the above post explaining my error. The document that I am referring to was recorded in Maricopa County in the year of 1883. Jacob Waltz died in 1891.
Attention to detail my friend; I too learned the hard way, so I am not getting down on you, for even your information may be reliable.
Ellie B.
Ellie Baba,
You misunderstood. You didn't make an error so there wasn't anything to correct. My point was only that a lot of people have tried to find that mining claim and came up empty and concluded it never existed. Thats because they were looking for it in the Pinal county records and it is actually in the Pima county records. The mine actually is physically located in Pinal county. I wasn't correcting you because you were right, just adding to the information because many have tried and failed to find the mine claim document. The 1883 affadavit doesn't explain where the mine is located or the paperwork for it.
Sorry for the confusion, my fault.
Azhiker
You misunderstood. You didn't make an error so there wasn't anything to correct. My point was only that a lot of people have tried to find that mining claim and came up empty and concluded it never existed. Thats because they were looking for it in the Pinal county records and it is actually in the Pima county records. The mine actually is physically located in Pinal county. I wasn't correcting you because you were right, just adding to the information because many have tried and failed to find the mine claim document. The 1883 affadavit doesn't explain where the mine is located or the paperwork for it.
Sorry for the confusion, my fault.
Azhiker
Hal Croves
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Azhiker,
Waiting for “records to surface” can not be the answer.
I have had some luck sifting through Barnard work and the man actually deserves some credit. The book does have its problems and calling it a “book” is stretching the definition of the word, but I am convinced that it does leads to the truth about the Dutchman.
Here is why.
Barnard wrote that Walzer had a cousin living in the United States by the named of Charles Hauslet.
Hauslet, Barney wrote, owned a tannery in Newark, NJ called the "Flower City Kids Works”. Barnard also implies that Walzer worked for cousin Charles there in that tannery but "was not interested in smelly hides and soon journeyed westward".
Charles Hauslet was actually Charles Hauselt who, in 1849, came to the United States as a representative of the House of Doerr & Reinhart of Worms, Germany (a tannery). He was twenty-one and quickly successful.
At some point, Charles established himself as an independent agent importing quality hides for footwear. This became the Charles Hauselt Company with (1861) headquarters at No. 63 Ann Street, second floor, New York City.
At the time, this part of lower Manhattan was known locally as "the swamp". If Walzer did work for Charles, chances are that it was here at this location. July in the swamp, the month of Walzer's arrival, would have been unpleasant.
What Barnard failed to understand was just how influential Charles Hauselt had become. Charles was a 30-year member of the German Society of New York and president for nine of those years.
Charles Hauselt was also one of several New York City Emigration Commissioners who worked tirelessly to improve conditions at Castle Garden. It is not difficult to imagine Charles greeting Walzer as he entered the south gate at Castle Garden. Once processed the walk to No. 63 Ann Street would have taken less than twenty minutes. Along the way, Walzer would have passed Trinity Church (1849), which today sits, in the shadow of One World Trade Center.
Hauselt lived on 33[SUP]rd[/SUP] Street in 1854, and sometime after at 29 Spruce Street. Where exactly Walzer stayed during his time in New York City is uncertain, but we know where he worked.
Just how long Walzer worked for Hauselt is unclear, but we know that by 1864, Walzer had been living in Arizona Territory for "two years". Was it the "swamp" and “smelly hides” that inspired Walzer to go west? I personally doubt it.
There is another more practical explanation for Walzer leaving New York City, however this is conjecture.
On the evening of August 6[SUP]th[/SUP], 1862, a fire broke out in the basement of the Rainbow Hotel, located at No. 31 & No. 33 Beekman Street. The Rainbow Hotel sat on the corner of Beekman & Williams Street, one block north of Ann Street.
By the time the fire was contained, the Rainbow Hotel was a complete loss. At least three tenants were killed and a captain in the Fire Department badly burned. The fire easily jumped to Ann Street, damaging or destroying most of No. 61 and No. 63. This included the Charles Hauselt Company. Charles lost $5,000.00 in inventory and equipment while total losses were estimated at $150,000.00.
Could this have been Walzer’s motivation...Hauselt's loss at No. 63 and the loss of a job? The timing is correct. It would have been an ideal time to leave the city as the violent NYC Draft Riots erupted just months later.
Exactly how Walzer made his way to his final resting place in Arizona Territory is open for debate, but his journey almost certainly began in lower Manhattan.
Later, Charles went into partnership with his two nephews Charles E. Hauselt (b. 1861) and Oscar Scherer (b.1857). Together they expanded the Charles Hauselt Company by opening a successful leather factory in Newark, NJ.
This is where they produced and distributed (among other things) a leather/glaze call "Flower City Kid Works". This was years after Walzer moved to Arizona Territory, so Barney got this part wrong.
Oscar Scherer took control of the company sometime after Charles Hauselt's death in 1890.
Hauselt’s will is available here: CHARLES HAUSELT'S WILL. - BEQUESTS TO RELATIVES -- WHAT PUBLIC INSTITUTIONS MAY RECEIVE. - Article - NYTimes.com
This is the place to begin researching the life Jacob Walzer, the Dutchman.
cactusjumper,
I hope that you are smiling.
Waiting for “records to surface” can not be the answer.
I have had some luck sifting through Barnard work and the man actually deserves some credit. The book does have its problems and calling it a “book” is stretching the definition of the word, but I am convinced that it does leads to the truth about the Dutchman.
Here is why.
Barnard wrote that Walzer had a cousin living in the United States by the named of Charles Hauslet.
Hauslet, Barney wrote, owned a tannery in Newark, NJ called the "Flower City Kids Works”. Barnard also implies that Walzer worked for cousin Charles there in that tannery but "was not interested in smelly hides and soon journeyed westward".
Charles Hauslet was actually Charles Hauselt who, in 1849, came to the United States as a representative of the House of Doerr & Reinhart of Worms, Germany (a tannery). He was twenty-one and quickly successful.
At some point, Charles established himself as an independent agent importing quality hides for footwear. This became the Charles Hauselt Company with (1861) headquarters at No. 63 Ann Street, second floor, New York City.
At the time, this part of lower Manhattan was known locally as "the swamp". If Walzer did work for Charles, chances are that it was here at this location. July in the swamp, the month of Walzer's arrival, would have been unpleasant.
What Barnard failed to understand was just how influential Charles Hauselt had become. Charles was a 30-year member of the German Society of New York and president for nine of those years.
Charles Hauselt was also one of several New York City Emigration Commissioners who worked tirelessly to improve conditions at Castle Garden. It is not difficult to imagine Charles greeting Walzer as he entered the south gate at Castle Garden. Once processed the walk to No. 63 Ann Street would have taken less than twenty minutes. Along the way, Walzer would have passed Trinity Church (1849), which today sits, in the shadow of One World Trade Center.
Hauselt lived on 33[SUP]rd[/SUP] Street in 1854, and sometime after at 29 Spruce Street. Where exactly Walzer stayed during his time in New York City is uncertain, but we know where he worked.
Just how long Walzer worked for Hauselt is unclear, but we know that by 1864, Walzer had been living in Arizona Territory for "two years". Was it the "swamp" and “smelly hides” that inspired Walzer to go west? I personally doubt it.
There is another more practical explanation for Walzer leaving New York City, however this is conjecture.
On the evening of August 6[SUP]th[/SUP], 1862, a fire broke out in the basement of the Rainbow Hotel, located at No. 31 & No. 33 Beekman Street. The Rainbow Hotel sat on the corner of Beekman & Williams Street, one block north of Ann Street.
By the time the fire was contained, the Rainbow Hotel was a complete loss. At least three tenants were killed and a captain in the Fire Department badly burned. The fire easily jumped to Ann Street, damaging or destroying most of No. 61 and No. 63. This included the Charles Hauselt Company. Charles lost $5,000.00 in inventory and equipment while total losses were estimated at $150,000.00.
Could this have been Walzer’s motivation...Hauselt's loss at No. 63 and the loss of a job? The timing is correct. It would have been an ideal time to leave the city as the violent NYC Draft Riots erupted just months later.
Exactly how Walzer made his way to his final resting place in Arizona Territory is open for debate, but his journey almost certainly began in lower Manhattan.
Later, Charles went into partnership with his two nephews Charles E. Hauselt (b. 1861) and Oscar Scherer (b.1857). Together they expanded the Charles Hauselt Company by opening a successful leather factory in Newark, NJ.
This is where they produced and distributed (among other things) a leather/glaze call "Flower City Kid Works". This was years after Walzer moved to Arizona Territory, so Barney got this part wrong.
Oscar Scherer took control of the company sometime after Charles Hauselt's death in 1890.
Hauselt’s will is available here: CHARLES HAUSELT'S WILL. - BEQUESTS TO RELATIVES -- WHAT PUBLIC INSTITUTIONS MAY RECEIVE. - Article - NYTimes.com
This is the place to begin researching the life Jacob Walzer, the Dutchman.
cactusjumper,
I hope that you are smiling.
Last edited:
Hal Croves
Silver Member
- #75
Thread Owner
View attachment 736661
View attachment 736662
View attachment 736663
Castle Garden images.
View attachment 736570
The south facing door of Castle Garden.
After the New Orleans dropped anchor (off Battery Park) Walzer and the other passenger were taken ashore by small "barges". They would have walked a short distance and entered the Castle Garden facility through these doors. Walzer's cousin, Charles Hauselt may have been there waiting to help Walzer through processing.
View attachment 736645
No. 61 & No.63 Ann Street.
The corner lot was No. 63, with the Charles Hauselt Company occuping the second floor. This is where Walzer would have worked if Barnard's story is true. Read about Charles Hauselts fruneral here: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F40610F93E5D15738DDDAB0994DA405B8085F0D3
View attachment 736648
View attachment 736657
No. 31 & No.33 Beekman Street
The Rainbow Hotel fire (1862) began here in the basement of the No. 31. Today it is a vacant parking lot under development by Pace University. The property manager believed that a school existed here until the mid 1970's. Read about the fire here: http://www.nytimes.com/1862/08/07/n...ersons-burned-death-loss-property-150000.html
and here: http://www.nytimes.com/1862/08/13/news/the-beekman-street-fire.html
View attachment 736658
Engraving of the Charles Hauselt Factory - Newark, New Jersey
View attachment 736679
Charles E. Hauselt - Nepheu of Charles Hauselt
This Charles was acitve in the Hide and Leather Sound Money Association
Read about Charles funeral here: http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F30A14FD355C1B7A93C7AB1783D85F4C8385F9
View attachment 736662
View attachment 736663
Castle Garden images.
View attachment 736570
The south facing door of Castle Garden.
After the New Orleans dropped anchor (off Battery Park) Walzer and the other passenger were taken ashore by small "barges". They would have walked a short distance and entered the Castle Garden facility through these doors. Walzer's cousin, Charles Hauselt may have been there waiting to help Walzer through processing.
View attachment 736645
No. 61 & No.63 Ann Street.
The corner lot was No. 63, with the Charles Hauselt Company occuping the second floor. This is where Walzer would have worked if Barnard's story is true. Read about Charles Hauselts fruneral here: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F40610F93E5D15738DDDAB0994DA405B8085F0D3
View attachment 736648
View attachment 736657
No. 31 & No.33 Beekman Street
The Rainbow Hotel fire (1862) began here in the basement of the No. 31. Today it is a vacant parking lot under development by Pace University. The property manager believed that a school existed here until the mid 1970's. Read about the fire here: http://www.nytimes.com/1862/08/07/n...ersons-burned-death-loss-property-150000.html
and here: http://www.nytimes.com/1862/08/13/news/the-beekman-street-fire.html
View attachment 736658
Engraving of the Charles Hauselt Factory - Newark, New Jersey
View attachment 736679
Charles E. Hauselt - Nepheu of Charles Hauselt
This Charles was acitve in the Hide and Leather Sound Money Association
Read about Charles funeral here: http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F30A14FD355C1B7A93C7AB1783D85F4C8385F9
Last edited:
cactusjumper
Gold Member
Hal,
You know I am......
Joe
You know I am......
Joe
Ellie Baba
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It does mention the mining district in Pinal (which I can't decipher). We are both working towards the same end, and Its not your fault, we both would like to see people posting true and accurate information.
Have a great day!
EB
Jacob Walzer
Hello Mr. Croves
Enjoyed reading your efforts.
So Jake Walzer was perhaps from South Germany and was Jewish.
His arrival in New York might shed some light on the reported visitors he had at his death bed that it seems came from New York. Believe two young people visited him.
Wonder why he came to Arizona?
Starman
Hello Mr. Croves
Enjoyed reading your efforts.
So Jake Walzer was perhaps from South Germany and was Jewish.
His arrival in New York might shed some light on the reported visitors he had at his death bed that it seems came from New York. Believe two young people visited him.
Wonder why he came to Arizona?
Starman
Hal Croves
Silver Member
- #79
Thread Owner
I am glad that you are posting again. Why Walzer came to Arizona is something that I will not comment on. That topic I am saving for my very last post, however if you want to share the reason, I would like to hear it, or your understanding of it.
Jake Walzer
Hello Mr. Croves,
Have you ever read a fascinating little book that was written by a gentleman named James H. Tevis? Tevis was among other things an adventurer who spent a great deal of time in Arizona. The book, "Arizona in the 50`s" is a read on life in those days and his interaction with the Apache`s and others. Of importance is his relationship with an Apache chief named Esconolea. Pages 130-137 are of particular importance. On page 132 he references the use of broad-bladed hatchets. Those hatchets open up another gate that takes you to a different time and a different place.
A time and place where Emil Haury, a graduate student at the time, help discredit the most important discovery in the history of America. And for that there are those who know the discovery is the real deal and are eternally grateful for his efforts.
But what has this to do with Jacob coming to Arizona. Perhaps one of the reasons was he was coming home. I doubt if there is any one reason why Jacob came to Arizona and why he stayed. Seems human beings are too complicated to be put is such silo`s. Maybe it is better to say the rose simply blooms, who really knows why. Believe the Latin and Greek origins of rose takes you to the word Rhoda.
Did not mean to hijack your thread. Look forward to reading what your research has revealed.
Starman
Hello Mr. Croves,
Have you ever read a fascinating little book that was written by a gentleman named James H. Tevis? Tevis was among other things an adventurer who spent a great deal of time in Arizona. The book, "Arizona in the 50`s" is a read on life in those days and his interaction with the Apache`s and others. Of importance is his relationship with an Apache chief named Esconolea. Pages 130-137 are of particular importance. On page 132 he references the use of broad-bladed hatchets. Those hatchets open up another gate that takes you to a different time and a different place.
A time and place where Emil Haury, a graduate student at the time, help discredit the most important discovery in the history of America. And for that there are those who know the discovery is the real deal and are eternally grateful for his efforts.
But what has this to do with Jacob coming to Arizona. Perhaps one of the reasons was he was coming home. I doubt if there is any one reason why Jacob came to Arizona and why he stayed. Seems human beings are too complicated to be put is such silo`s. Maybe it is better to say the rose simply blooms, who really knows why. Believe the Latin and Greek origins of rose takes you to the word Rhoda.
Did not mean to hijack your thread. Look forward to reading what your research has revealed.
Starman
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