The Book Club

[Hal Croves]

Now you have Hal interested. Before him there was Paul and before him, Randy. There has been a long list of people you have tried to convince.[/COLOR]

cactusjumper,
Honestly, starman's story sounds incredible, but as to the level of my interest, I have to tell you that it is just not there. I want more than anything to believe is portals and gatekeepers, but to date, I have read nothing that would convince me to deviate from what I have already researched. And I don't believe in serving parts of a story while holding back the facts that give it credence. Have I held back details from my research? Absolutely, but only because those details need to be double checked.

As I wrote before, his name was Jacob Walzer, and he was human to a fault. Some small part of me feels that it does Walzer and his contemporaries a disservice to promote such supernatural tales.

The truth isn't always glamorous and without a doubt it can lead to disappointment, but there is no greater feeling than knowing it. For example, Barnard wrote that Walzer was "...a graduate of Heidelberg University, a mining engineer fifty-two years of age..." The truth is that in its long prestigious history, Heidelberg University has "NEVER" offered engineering/technical studies. This is a fact straight from the horse's mouth. So, where did Walzer study to become a "mining engineer" if indeed he was one? Did Barnard get this wrong? I think that it may simply have been his interpretation of the documents he was reading.

 

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[cactusjumper]

cactusjumper,
Honestly, starman's story sounds incredible, but as to the level of my interest, I have to tell you that it is just not there. I want more than anything to believe is portals and gatekeepers, but to date, I have read nothing that would convince me to deviate from what I have already researched. And I don't believe in serving parts of a story while holding back the facts that give it credence. Have I held back details from my research? Absolutely, but only because those details need to be double checked.

As I wrote before, his name was Jacob Walzer, and he was human to a fault. Some small part of me feels that it does Walzer and his contemporaries a disservice to promote such supernatural tales.

The truth isn't always glamorous and without a doubt it can lead to disappointment, but there is no greater feeling than knowing it. For example, Barnard wrote that Walzer was "...a graduate of Heidelberg University, a mining engineer fifty-two years of age..." The truth is that in its long prestigious history, Heidelberg University has "NEVER" offered engineering/technical studies. This is a fact straight from the horse's mouth. So, where did Walzer study to become a "mining engineer" if indeed he was one? Did Barnard get this wrong? I think that it may simply have been his interpretation of the documents he was reading.

Hal,

To be clear, I did not mean to imply that any of us were more than "interested" in the story. I found "Alice in Wonderland" interesting, without ever believing there was a rabbit hole that led to Wonderland. There seems to be a connection there......somewhere. Perhaps it has something to do with the author's chemically altered conscious.

As I have said before, Barnard had some good information in his story, but some of it he either made-up or had a bad source.......Kind of like happened to some of our more recent authors. I have three copies of his "books". One is the "New Edition" and two are original. The "first edition", I have been told, has a green tape on the binding. I have one of those and one signed by Barnard.

I followed the Calalus story, simply because there were some "artifacts" and it was built around some real places and known history. As I have said before, the best historical novels use the same types of background.

Take care,

Joe

 

[ELBAYO]

Joe it seems from rock drawings the people who lived in the valley hundreds of years ago believed in space men..Photos to come soon.......

Double-Jack......

 

[markmar]

Hi Hal

You wrote " So, where did Walzer study to become a "mining engineer" if indeed he was one? Did Barnard get this wrong? I think that it may simply have been his interpretation of the documents he was reading. "

In the most cases if you are new in town , you are , what you declares that you are .

 

[Hal Croves]

I am surprised that this post received so little attention. I thought that it was fairly good evidence to support the Jacob Wisner story. Here is a second, independent source that proves a Jacob Wisner lived in Arizona Territory during the time in question. Note the other names on this list and the name of the company who issued the shares. Is this the correct Jacob Wisner? Again, it is difficult to say. Any thoughts?

View attachment 737836

Just a thought and I would appreciate some feedback. What if Jacob Wisner didn't die in the Superstitions as many believe. Perhaps his survival story is true and for whatever reason he wanted to remain hidden. Why would Petrasch, Duppa & others encourage Walzer to take a carpenter with him for protection? Now, a carpenter with combat experience would make sense.

We have Jacob S. Wisner (carpenter) who was with F Company, 54th Infantry, Illinois...
and the same Jacob S. Wisner who filed for a Civil War Pension in May of 1891 from Arizona...
and a Jacob Wisner who held stock in the Farmer's Irrigation Company in Yuma A.T...
and now Jacob S. Wisner's final resting place.
It is a long way from the Superstitions but here he is, the same Jacob S. Wisner resting in Broome County, New York. I think that there is more to this story than understood.

View attachment 740435

 

[Hal Croves]

Hi Hal

You wrote " So, where did Walzer study to become a "mining engineer" if indeed he was one? Did Barnard get this wrong? I think that it may simply have been his interpretation of the documents he was reading. "

In the most cases if you are new in town , you are , what you declares that you are .

Perhaps...

 

[cactusjumper]

Hal,

I saved this information back (2009) when I was researching Calalus:

Dating the Calalus Texts (5 pp) Barry Fell & Marshall Payn 19-p 115 In an interview with Marshall Payn, Fell cites linguistic and epigraphic evidence that the Calalus inscriptions and artifacts are modern. The only “good” Latin in the inscriptions comes from heraldic mottoes of the nobility as well as known quotes from Virgil, Horace, etc. The rest is what Fell calls “ignorant dog-Latin” with grammatical errors and misspellings. He suggests that the Calalus objects may have been the regalia of some order of Freemasons with special interest in Hebrews. He believes, however, that neither the finder, Tom Bent, or his son, had any connection with any fraudulent plan to deceive. Cyclone Covey first showed Fell photographs of the artifacts in 1977 and Payn later arranged with Bent to let Fell study certain of the originals. Calalus: a Hard Look (3 pp) Michael Skupin 19-p 120 Skupin concurs with Fell's findings concerning the "Tucson Artifacts," underscoring the many errors in the “dog-Latin.” He remarks that the Hebrew on the inscriptions also shows a modern and uninformed touch, that the Hebrew phrases were probably copied from a reference work of some kind. He concludes that the inscriptions are modern. Cyclone Covey had implied that faculty members of the Wake Forest University Classics Department had participated in the translation of the artifacts, but Skupin found no members of that Department had any desire to claim such credit and firmly disassociated themselves from the matter. The Tucson ArtiFacts: A Fingerprint (1 p) Michael Skupin 19-p 122 Skupin suggests that one of the “dog-Latin” errors that makes no sense in Latin or in English translation would make sense if the author was a Spanish speaker. This clue to the origin of the artifacts should be taken into account. The Tucson Artifacts: Starting from Scratch (1 p) Michael Skupin 19-p 123 Skupin, at the suggestion of George F. Carter, corresponded with Julian D. Hayden regarding the Tuscon artifacts. Hayden replied that he remembered when the finds were made and had kept up with the situation. He described how he believed the artifacts were inserted from the side under layers of undis- turbed caliche. He noted that there was little or no corrosion on the lead artifacts, but lead-sheathed phone cables placed in Tucson caliche tend to corrode badly even in a short period of time. Further, the caliche layer into which the objects were inserted dated to a period 9,000-24,000 years ago. The Tucson Artifacts: A Rebuttal to Skupin (4 pp) Chris Hardaker 19-p 124 Hardaker was hired by ISAC to examine and summarize archaeological investigations of the Tucson artifacts. He points out that few participants in the discussion had read further than Covey's book, "Calalus," and thus few were arguing with a full grasp of the events that occurred. Skupin and the Epigraphic Society had concluded that the artifacts were buried in the 19th century by some club or cult and they were not a hoax per se while most modern archaeologists believe it was a hoax. He scolds Skupin for “not doing his homework” and the “cynical, cocky overtone of his presentation.” Hardaker concludes that Skupin and Fell have “postulated the who and the why,” but “have not succeeded in putting it all together to explain how.” On the Level with the Tucson Artifacts (17 pp) Bill Rudersclorf 19-p 128 The author discusses the symbols and inscriptions on the artifacts in some detail and relates them to Masonic symbols and practices. He points out that a possible connection with Spanish Freemasonry and, by extension, with Masonry as practiced in Mexico. Comments on Criticism of Calalus (1 p) Cyclone Covey 19-p 145 Covey defends his portrayal of the Tucson site and artifacts in his book. He states that he and the colleagues he consulted were quite aware of the linguistic errors in the Tucson inscriptions. He states that he and the Bents welcome proof or disproof of the material equally. If They were Aspirin: Questions About the Tucson Artifacts (1 p) Jane Eppinga 19-p 146 Jane Eppinga, a Freelance Writer living near Tucson, recommends a more thorough investigation of the artifacts and all the information available concerning their discovery. Thought you might find it interesting. Take care, Joe

 

[Hal Croves]

cactusjumper,

That is quite a story. I want to avoid getting off topic, but at the same time I do want to make a comment here regarding fraternal orders and if you can stomach it, the stone map cipher. For most people, the mere mention of "secret societies" seems to invoke grandiose thoughts of conspiracy, demonic ritual, and plans for world domination. And they couldn't be faulted for thinking that way. Secret societies are and perhaps always will be anti democratic, even though throughout history "they" are often the defenders of democracy. Without taking the time to understand (study) the roll of these organizations in shaping world history, it would be difficult for even the most level headed person to appreciate the contributions of groups like the International Organization Of Odd Fellows & the Knights of Pythias. There are far too many to list here. The "stigma" that has been attached to groups like the Masons is perhaps the price of exclusion and quite honestly, it has evolved into one hell of an industry. We have books, movies, television "documentaries", and a growing trade in all things Masonic. Just a few weeks ago, I was at a local flea-market contemplation the purchase of a beautiful Masonic tile which, had stamped on the backside, "Made in PA". I made an offer and as I did, a younger man (who I had not seen approach) asked why I wanted the tile. Without thinking I snapped back... "It will make a great coaster for my desk". He laughed, came along side me at the table and gestured to see the tile. I handed it to him and when he gave it back, he held it in such a way that his fingers were on top of the tile. He was wearing a gold Masonic ring with black inlay and asked what I thought of it? I said "not much" and insincerely asked if he wanted to purchase the tile. He turned and walked away without the courtesy of a response. Was he inquiring to see if I was a fellow Mason? Is this how they identify each other? I counted almost twenty "Masonic" items scattered throughout the market that day. While its great for collectors, I find it troubling that these items find their way to market and consider it a breech of trust to the many lodge members who have passed.

Secret societies exist in almost every culture in one form or another. It seems impossible to study the history of Arizona without the constant reminder of their involvement in politics, business, and legend building. Take for example the organization known as E CLAMPUS VITUS, specifically the Lost Dutchman Chapter 5917 + 4 dedicated to none other than Jacob WALZER. And Squibob Chapter 1853, E. Clampus Vitus which is a preserver of all things related to George H. Derby. By the way, for those who don't know it, that is George in my TN member photograph. George is my personal hero who was the inspiration for Samuel Langhorne Clemens, better known by his pen name Mark Twain. So, fraternal organizations and legends such as the Dutchman's Lost Mine do share a common place in history. To their credit, these groups build and preserve.

I will close this post with my understanding of what the stone map cipher is, or what I believe it to be. When the stones were made, the Superstitions were only partially protected from exploitation. I believe that the person(s) who made the stones was preserving a part of Superstition history that has been concealed for... I can't say how long. This person found a clever way to pass this information along, preserving it in such a way that it would be impossible to decipher until a time when what it lead to was protected by legislation. That time has come. True to this persons nature, it was always about the preservation of history, which as I have written, is the goal of many fraternal organizations.

http://www.ecv5917.com/desktop.htm
http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/masonicmuseum/fraternalism/e_clampus_vitus.htm

For those of you who watch "Pawn Stars"... have you ever wondered why Mark Hall-Patton favors the red shirt?

View attachment 740728

 

[Hal Croves]

Also check out King S. Woolsey (ca. 1832 - June 30, 1879) was an American pioneer, rancher, Indian-fighter, prospector, Mason and politician in 19th century Arizona. He just happens to be burried next to a good friend by the name of Jacob Waltz.

We will all be very busy pretty soon.

Ellie Baba

Ellie,
Regarding Woolsey and his resting place, this image seems to contradict your post. As I have not been there to see it first hand, I am wondering if things have been moved around? Do you know the history of Walzer's burial? Was he moved at some point?

View attachment 740718

 

[starman 1]

Jake Walzer

Hello Mr. Croves

Just to set the record straight what you believe is your business and I am not trying to persuade you to believe anything. You have done a lot of hard work and I could not resist in pointing your in certain directions that might save you some time. I has amazed me for years the difficulty people have had in understanding Walzer`s name and not following up on his time in South Africa. There are records.

This is your journey and no one else`s. Good luck.

Well there was one fellow in Texas years ago I tried to help. I believe his last name was Webb. A Gatekeeper had him convinced that Oz was located on what is that big mountain. Has something to do with a person from Alaska. The word swamper comes to mind. Anyway Webb was convinced Oz was on this mountain. I might add there were others convinced of the same thing. Tried to tell him that there was a garrison on Bluff Spings Mountain he might look for. That garrison would have the same weapons and language as the Tucson Artifacts if he could find it. Seems the McGee`s were somehow involved with this. It is hard to keep it straight. I can`t remember who ended up with their files.

Mr. Ribaudo,

As long as you persist on simply repeating the same mistakes that others have made then you will get no where with an understanding of the artifacts. Get a copy of Bent`s work again. Read it till it sinks in. Look at the pictures and ask yourself where have you seen landscapes that are recorded there. Just one example: The circumstances surrounding the discoveries of artifacts 6 and 7 on 01/24/1925 prove the artifacts were not planted. You just have to look at where the artifacts were found and who insisted Bent and Manier look there. Also on artifact 7(front Portion) is a carving of the saddle that is high up on the east side of West Boulder Canyon. Above that is a symbol of the ancients. That symbol is still up there. The artifact is showing you where a trail of the ancients begins and the back shows you where the trail ends.

Your work on the trail maps took you to little Boulder Canyon, artifact 7 will take you to the end of the trail. You really do not need the other trail maps or an understanding of how the two maps that are known can take you there.

You did ask one question that is interesting: Why? Perhaps the answer is as simple as the Rose blooming. It just is. Enjoy it as a gift. Rhoda was a gift but it only lasted in historical terms a day. You were right about one thing Calalus conceals the most important treasure the world has ever seen. The impact on religion, the sciences, is beyond belief.

Richard "Scotty" Macneish excuvated a place call Pendrjo Cave 35 miles east to Orogrande New Mexico. There was a water event 19,000 years ago and below that they found clay lined fire pits with finger prints in the clay, you can tell human finger prints by the sweat pores under a microscope. they have fire pits, charcoal, and pieces of wood that date back 30,000 years. If your are interested in Pendejo Cave, you can google the El Paso Archaeological Society and get a DVD of a lecture they gave on the cave. Another thing I forgot, they found some human hair bundles below 19,000 years ago and did DNA on them and they are human and not related to the Native Americans.
​

When Did Humans Come to the Americas? - Page 7


Seems there were others in the southwest for a long, long time.


Starman

 

[cactusjumper]

Hello Mr. Croves

Just to set the record straight what you believe is your business and I am not trying to persuade you to believe anything. You have done a lot of hard work and I could not resist in pointing your in certain directions that might save you some time. I has amazed me for years the difficulty people have had in understanding Walzer`s name and not following up on his time in South Africa. There are records.

This is your journey and no one else`s. Good luck.

Well there was one fellow in Texas years ago I tried to help. I believe his last name was Webb. A Gatekeeper had him convinced that Oz was located on what is that big mountain. Has something to do with a person from Alaska. The word swamper comes to mind. Anyway Webb was convinced Oz was on this mountain. I might add there were others convinced of the same thing. Tried to tell him that there was a garrison on Bluff Spings Mountain he might look for. That garrison would have the same weapons and language as the Tucson Artifacts if he could find it. Seems the McGee`s were somehow involved with this. It is hard to keep it straight. I can`t remember who ended up with their files.

Mr. Ribaudo,

As long as you persist on simply repeating the same mistakes that others have made then you will get no where with an understanding of the artifacts. Get a copy of Bent`s work again. Read it till it sinks in. Look at the pictures and ask yourself where have you seen landscapes that are recorded there. Just one example: The circumstances surrounding the discoveries of artifacts 6 and 7 on 01/24/1925 prove the artifacts were not planted. You just have to look at where the artifacts were found and who insisted Bent and Manier look there. Also on artifact 7(front Portion) is a carving of the saddle that is high up on the east side of West Boulder Canyon. Above that is a symbol of the ancients. That symbol is still up there. The artifact is showing you where a trail of the ancients begins and the back shows you where the trail ends.

Your work on the trail maps took you to little Boulder Canyon, artifact 7 will take you to the end of the trail. You really do not need the other trail maps or an understanding of how the two maps that are known can take you there.

You did ask one question that is interesting: Why? Perhaps the answer is as simple as the Rose blooming. It just is. Enjoy it as a gift. Rhoda was a gift but it only lasted in historical terms a day. You were right about one thing Calalus conceals the most important treasure the world has ever seen. The impact on religion, the sciences, is beyond belief.

Richard "Scotty" Macneish excuvated a place call Pendrjo Cave 35 miles east to Orogrande New Mexico. There was a water event 19,000 years ago and below that they found clay lined fire pits with finger prints in the clay, you can tell human finger prints by the sweat pores under a microscope. they have fire pits, charcoal, and pieces of wood that date back 30,000 years. If your are interested in Pendejo Cave, you can google the El Paso Archaeological Society and get a DVD of a lecture they gave on the cave. Another thing I forgot, they found some human hair bundles below 19,000 years ago and did DNA on them and they are human and not related to the Native Americans.
​

When Did Humans Come to the Americas? - Page 7


Seems there were others in the southwest for a long, long time.


Starman

Martin,

I am at our store right now, but will address your post when I get home.

"That garrison would have the same weapons and language as the Tucson Artifacts if he could find it."

Ah-yes......Lead swords and spears.

How the artifacts came to be buried, at such widely divergent depths in the caliche, has always been a problem for me. It would seem that they should all be at approximately the same depth, if they were deposited there at the same time. As I recall (memory not so good anymore) there was a 5'+ difference between some of the artifacts.

I don't pretend to know who placed the items there, why or when. I will leave that to you folks, who seem to be the experts.

I admit that I do seem to keep going back to the same arguments, which might be because you seldom came up with satisfactory answers. It's difficult to separate the story that developed over the years from the deceitful posts that Late49er started out with. Deceitful is being kind.

"As long as you persist on simply repeating the same mistakes that others have made then you will get no where with an understanding of the artifacts."

It seems to me that the same could be said of you.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

Here's another post from the past:

Ben,

I have to admit, now that I have read Bent's manuscript and the letters that passed between him and the McGees, the less arguments I see for the authenticity of the Tucson artifacts, Calalus and OZ. There is just too much negative evidence against the entire story.

The argument you have used that "The Geology of Silverbell Road is little understood." may have worked for the late 1920s, but hardly applies today. Even then, the geological facts argued against the artifacts being genuine. One of the biggest problems is the fact that the artifacts were found in a deposit that dates back to the Pleistocene era.

That would make the artifacts "at least" 10,000 years old.

James Breazeale, who coauthored "Caliche In Arizona", which I have read a number of times, visited the Silverbell site in 1926. His conclusion was....."If these leaden artifacts were found imbedded in the undisturbed caliche in the hard, tightly-cemented limestone deposit, and if no hoax has been perpetrated they are certainly of exceedingly great age--not one thousand, but nearer one hundred thousand years old."


It takes a bit more than just believing in Calalus and Oz to make it so, it takes arguments which refute the mountain of evidence that stands against them ever existing. Do you have such arguments? If so, I am willing to give them a chance.

Looking forward to your reply to my last two posts.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Hal Croves]

starman,

It is not that I don't believe in what you are writing about. I simply don't know enough about it to form an opinion. What I don't understand, what I am struggling with is the need to tell your story in cryptic snippets that are difficult to follow. If you really want to help me (and everyone reading this thread), why not point to the records that place Walzer in South Africa. I believe that he was there at some point, however I have not yet found the proof to confirm it. All I need is the year of his arrival... if you don't want to provide anything more. Tell the story of Walzer's time in South Africa. PLEASE! Perhaps in doing so, my research will bring me to the place where you are, but for now I am embarrassed to write that I don't even know what a gatekeeper is. I post hoping to close the open circle on Walzer. I have enough material for a short book on the Dutchman, but it would be just another book with one more unfinished ending. No one needs that, especially if there is a cost involved.

However, if I were to write a book on Jacob Walzer, I would begin it with this anonymous quote, which I think tells the complete story:

"For it is recent history, the finding of the Lost Dutchman's Mine, and still the Lost Dutchman's Mine has never been found".

 

[cactusjumper]

And more old arguments:

[h=1]A Reputation in Ruins[/h] [h=3]By Peter Gilstrap[/h] [h=4]Published: March 21, 1996[/h]A few days ago, I stopped my car along the side of Silver Bell Road, about seven miles north of Tucson, at the site of a thoroughly dilapidated, 19th-century lime kiln. In addition to a lot of scrub brush and dirt, this is what I found: a twisted tire tread, an empty bag of Purina Cat Chow, a Pepsi bottle, a Styrofoam cup with a green superhero on it and a disintegrating diaper. This is what Charles Manier and his family--out for a little desert quality time in the autumn of 1924--found when they stopped at the same spot: a lot of scrub brush and dirt. As well as two lead crosses weighing 62 pounds, stuck together with wax, emblazoned with Latin inscriptions that seemed to indicate that there had been a Roman-Jewish settlement there around A.D. 700. After I made my discoveries, I got back into my car, switched the radio to a country station and drove off to get some lunch. After Charles Manier and his family wrenched their discoveries from the earth, they got back into their car and drove off to begin a bizarre little chapter in Southwestern archaeological history that would see ruined reputations, bitter allegations of fraud, vociferous claims of authenticity, blaring national headlines and at least one great, big mystery, still unsolved to this day. Whether they got any lunch along the way, I do not know. Anyone with a library card can read about the alleged Roman relics of Tucson--as I did--in books on oddball archaeology and unexplained tales of nature. Find mentions of Sasquatch, sea serpents, lost gold mines or advanced civilizations that have vanished into thin air, and the relics won't be far behind. So I got to thinking, as I am wont to do: Hoax or not, whatever happened to these things? Numerous phone calls to Arizona State University and Arizona Historical Society in Tempe led nowhere. Some officials had never heard of the story, others revealed only vague, cryptic knowledge; none had any idea where the artifacts were. Until a gentleman at the Tucson branch of the historical society got on the line. "Sure, we have 'em here." Could I see them? "No problem." Though that doesn't seem like too much detective work, even the mighty Arizona Republic was stonewalled. In an article on AZ legends dated January 28, the paper quoted University of Arizona archaeology professor James Reid: "[T]he artifacts ... Disappeared but may be in the Phoenix area. ... I would dearly, dearly love to see them." Hey, doc, me too. And I did, as well as talking with one devoted expert on the relics who had yet to lay eyes on them, one who didn't know where they were and another who gasped with disbelief when I revealed that I'd had an audience with the enigmatic remains. "You're kidding! Who did you talk to? Who set this up? I didn't know they were allowing the press to see them--you're opening up a Pandora's box!" And so the story goes ... More than 70 years ago, a baffled Charles Manier bore a cross over to the Arizona State Museum and showed it to an archaeologist named Karl Ruppert, who accompanied Manier to the site the next day. Digging into the side of a small ridge at a depth about five feet beneath the surface (afact that would propone the notion that these items had been in the ground for quite a while), they found a seven-pound chunk of caliche--a hard soil cemented by calcium carbonate--curiously inscribed and dated A.D. 800. A long time ago. Now we will meet Thomas Bent, lawyer, friend of Manier and owner of this magical piece of roadside desert property. Shovels inhand, the two men spent the ensuing months excavating swords, spears and crosses, finds that ranged in execution from crude to not-so-crude, most engraved with Latin and Hebrew inscriptions. And a few more pros from the university were on hand to help out. Enter Dr. Andrew E. Douglass, father of dendrochronology (that's dating by tree rings), Ruppert, assistant director of the State Museum, Dr. Frank Fowler, professor of classical languages, and Emil W. Haury, an archaeology student at the university. Opinions on the authenticity of the finds would ricochet within this group, as they would between institutions, including the Smithsonian and the British Museum. But, according to an article in the Tucson Citizen from February 1925, these officials "have interested themselves in aiding the finders unravel the mystery of the Latin-inscribed crosses." The article went on to say that "when the first cross was discovered ... The professors at the university were inclined to discount the importance of the find, in the belief that the inscription was the work of some religious fanatic or hermit, although unquestionably a man of education and skill in the art of engraving." But then Dr. Byron Cummings, dean of the Archaeological Department at the University of Arizona and the director of the State Museum, certainly among the heaviest of hitters--archaeologically speaking--in the Southwest, returned from a dig in Mexico. Immediately, he dove deep into the excavation, and even deeper into the controversy that would dog him for the rest of his career. His determination? Cummings was a believer! In December of 1925, he issued a statement saying the relics "were, without question, authentic." The dean wouldn't reveal just how old the objects were, yet he did claim that "the old relics have undoubtedly been in existence for several hundred years long before the first Spanish conquistadors entered the country." Cummings packed up ten of the sexiest relics and headed for the American Association for the Advancement of Science meetings in Kansas City--and then went on to various eastern museums and universities to let his cynical colleagues have a firsthand gawk. For a lot of people, the highly respected opinion of Dean Cummings was the last word in accuracy. But not for everybody. Let's examine what most folks were looking to 70 years ago for their information on the subject, the newspapers. At this point, the implements--Roman or not--were well outof the ground; statements were being made, sides taken. Things are about to become confusing, as headline wars begin to rage. "ROMAN RELICS FOUND HERE BAFFLE SCIENCE" screamed Tucson's Arizona Daily Star on Sunday morning, December 13, 1925. On the same day, the New York Times broke the story for the other side of the country with an A1 lead declaring "PUZZLING RELICS DUG UP IN ARIZONA STIR SCIENTISTS," but took a more skeptical stance in the piece than did the Star, quoting established eastern archaeological authorities--who, it was implied, just maybe knew a little bit more than their cohorts out there in the still Wild West. Beginning to smell a professional tiff? Then, a shameful 24 hours later, the December 14 evening edition of the Tucson Citizen jumped in with "LEADEN RELICS GENUINE, STATES U. OF A. ARCHAEOLOGIST, WHO REPLIES TO DOUBTING THOMASES." Miffed at missing the Big Scoop inits own hometown, and despite a headline tending in the other direction, the Citizen sided with the Times. The tardy Tucson paper offered Cummings' faithful statements of authenticity, but added quotes from Dr. N.M. Judd, curator of the National Museum in Washington, D.C., who just happened to be in Tucson on a family visit and made himself available to examine the finds. According to Judd--who never questioned Cummings' abilities--they were "unquestionably fraudulent." Ouch. Now the fan is on, and increasingly largebits of nasty matter are traveling toward it. "RELICS ARE CRIBBED FROM DICTIONARY GLOSSARY, CHARGED; ONE PHRASE TAKEN FROM CAESAR" sniffed the December 15 attack from the Citizen. "Can it be possible that the learned geologists, archaeologists and classicists who have vouched for this discovery have been imposed upon?" queried the paper. The problem here, undoubtedly a major one, centered on the discovery that many of the phrases on the relics were readily available in common Latin textbooks in use at the time. Not to mention the "Glossary of Foreign Words, Phrases, etc." in the back of "the Standard Dictionary." Also, it was pointed out, the abbreviation "A.D." (anno Domini), inscribed on at least two of the crosses, did not come into use until roughly A.D. 1000, long after the relicshad supposedly been brought to the desert. The Daily Star was beginning to look not so good. But the paper opted for righteous, blind loyalty on December 23: "IF DEAN CUMMINGS SAYS THEY'RE GENUINE, THEY ARE, DECLARE TUCSONANS." Take that, Mr. New York Times, Mr. Tucson Citizen. But wait. Our friends Bent and Manier are cooling their perplexed-but-still-believing heels back in Tucson, and 25 of the relics are on display in the Tucson Bank Building. The "earliest evidence of white man in America," reads a big sign outside the door; it costs adults 25cents to view the icons; for children, it's a mere dime. And then the January 19, 1926, edition of the Times brings up another stumbling block. Seems that one Leandro Ruiz, an aging Tucson cattleman, remembers "an educated young Mexican sculptor and student of the classics who lived with his parents at the lime kiln forty years ago." Young Timotio Odohui and his folks had allegedly been driven out of their native land by the revolution after the French invasion of Mexico. Ruiz recalled that the gifted Timotio not only had a way with sculpting and access to Latin texts, but he was greatly interested in buried treasure. On March 1, 1926, the Star carried thisgrave announcement: "Financial support of the University of Arizona for the further excavation of the land along Silver Bell Road ... has been withdrawn, according to an announcement last night by Dean Byron Cummings." Six days later, the battle-scarred dean told the Star of the "possibility that the tablets may have been buried by a member of the Mormon faith to perpetuate the story given in the Book of Mormon which claims the Indians of America as direct descendants of the ancient Israelites." From ancient Romans to a clever Mexican lad to conniving Mormons, the relics had quite a trip. Is there any chance at all that they were, as originally claimed, minted a few hundred years after Christ walked the Earth? Nope. But that is where one mystery ends and another begins. So who put the damn things out there in the desert, and why? "That's the bottom line that still persists," says Tucson archaeologist Chris Hardaker. "There's a whole bunch of weird things to this. There are no answers, man, just one huge enigma." To this day, no one has taken credit for the hoax. Not so much as a pinkie has been pointed at any likely suspects; specifically--in case you're wondering--not at Manier or Bent. "You've got this wonderful, enigmatic Mexican, first of all, but why would he want to bury them and then wait 40years for someone maybe to come along and find them?" asks Hardaker. "If you look into hoaxes and frauds--especially archaeological hoaxes--it's kind of like an arsonist wants to see his own fire, he wants to see all these guys made into idiots." Hardaker, who has studied the case for years and was acquainted with Thomas Bent Jr., continues: "The motivational aspects are fascinating, and what it comes down to, the most reasonable, logical thing is that they were being planted at the time they were being dug up. Where this gets embarrassing is that you had A.E. Douglass involved in this, and he's god [in Tucson]. He was also a Freemason [it's been suggested that the artifacts bore some Masonic threads] ... He'd be my central figure, but I don't know what he'd be doing it for, if he did it at all. "Bent, he was a lawyer who was helping the [World War I] vets down here. Through all of his actions, all of his concerns and work, I can't see him as being a hoaxer. His family got blown apart with this; his wife hated all this stuff, he suffered a lot. And Manier, on the other hand, well, he was out there one day, a retiree just goofing off with his family, when he just happened to find this. "And if there's something deeper and darker to this, I don't know. I don't know if the trails would really lead to anything." Though the story of the artifacts has essentially faded from the public eye, it makes you wonder why the archaeological community hasn't pursued the investigation with technology that was not available in the '20s. "I think the bottom line is that a lot of people say, 'It's a hoax, and if it's a hoax, I don't want to deal with it.' And my feeling on that is that archaeologists should be detectives, regardless," says Hardaker. "My peers over at [the Arizona State Museum] essentially look upon it--at least they used to--as a great deal of embarrassment to the credibility of the Southwest. If you're hip to basketball, there's an eastern group, and then maybe the West is like the little brother. This is how it's kind of been with East Coast and West Coast archaeology." Archaeologist Peter Steere, congressional archivist and manuscript librarian at the University of Arizona, sums it up quite neatly. "Most professional archaeologists turn their noses up at this sort of stuff," offers Steere, whose nose has been down far enough for him to lecture on the subject, and even to mount a show on the artifacts a few years ago. "My interest in them is that they're a part of the local folklore, a part of archaeology folklore, and a part of the history of southern Arizona," he explains. "And, obviously, what's interesting is that it became a very acrimonious situation, and there were a lot of people from the university involved, plus the private parties that were involved, and the on-again, off-again [public] interest in these things over the years." For all his knowledge, Steere has no clue as to the big who-or-why questions, but he presents simple reasoning for disbelieving the relics are Roman-Jewish. "If there was this hypothetical group of Roman-Jewish colonists living on the northwest side of Tucson--even if it was asmall group there for a short period--we'dhave some other evidence. And there's nothing. There's never been anything before, never been anything since. And that, to me as a professional archaeologist, is the most disturbing question." You've heard from yellowed newspaper clippings and contemporary experts, but there is still one party to be consulted. A source that was there at the time; in fact, the element that has been responsible for this whole tale. We are now going to travel into the basement of the Arizona Historical Society in Tucson, beneath the exhibits of wagon wheels, period dresses and guns, into a room awash in bright fluorescent light, to visit the relics themselves. There, 30 pieces are laid out, each in its own formfitted spot, in five, yellow-painted wooden cases constructed by Mr. Bent himself. Every artifact is tied down with swaths of white gauze; the effect is dainty, delicate anda little ceremonial. A tasteful resting place. Afew have sloppy, crude edges, but most are refined. There are the famous inscriptions in the dull lead faces, lots of Latiny sideways "V" shapes, lots of simple drawings of angels, crowns, serpents. There's a Menorah engraved on an object that looks like a paddle, and a number of columned buildings. I can imagine how Bent and Manier felt; I'd be fairly wigged-out myself, finding these strange prizes in the middle of nowhere. I stare at them. I touch one, run my fingers along a phrase that's probably from a Latin textbook. I get in close, and smell the thing. I get a big whiff of plywood, which, I find, is how I'll remember them later. Collections manager Mark Santiago, the man who has allowed me into this inner sanctum, says that Thomas Bent Jr. donated them to the historical society two years ago. Bent had them at his house for the last 40 years. I am not allowed to photograph them--Bent's stipulation--and I am the first reporter to see them since they arrived here. No one else has asked. What is the future of the relics? "The one thing that we'll try to do, if we get a grant or whatever, is to try to have them analyzed by a metallurgist," Santiago explains. "If it's possible to take a sample of the lead and see when it was smelted, then that should end it right there. But even if you did that, it still won't solve the central mystery of why and who." A grant is something Hardaker, among others, would dearly love to get--quickly. There are plans to widen Silver Bell Road, which would either force renewed excavations or obliterate the site where Roman Jews supposedly dropped their crosses once and for all. A few minutes later, Santiago has to go photocopy something, and he leaves me alone with the pieces. I try to concentrate on them, see if I can establish some psychic channel with ... an ancient Roman, a Mexican kid, a religious fanatic or hermit, maybe some unknown prankster in history. It's quiet in there, real quiet as 30 pieces of lead stare up at me. And I don't hear a thing. No dusty whispers from 15 centuries ago. Not even a 100-year-old smirk. --Gilstrap ______________________________________________________________ There is a great deal more. Joe Ribaudo

 

[Hal Croves]

cactusjumper,
Thank you for posting that!

 

[starman 1]

Oral traditions

Mr. Crove

While I am happy to answer your questions when I can, I do have expectations that you will at least make an effort to answer mine. My questions have a purpose and if you take the time to answer them who knows where this conversation may go. On the other hand if you wish to understand Mr. Walzer on a certain level I am perfectly happy to sit on the sidelines. I will give it one more go and no more if you do not return the respect I afford you.

The oral tradition of Esconolea and the written history of the Tucson Artifacts are powerful tools to understand the history of Calalus. Imagine the history of Esconolea is roughly the same as one that would have been written by a Northern historian living at the time of the Civil War. The Tucson Artifacts speak of the same war but it is written by a Southern historian living at the time of the war of Northern Aggression. Obviously there is great merit in considering the value of such histories. This is why I mentioned these two sources so you could see the different perspectives. Now let us imagine that after the war there are another group of folks who come along to write histories that claim the War never occurred. Who would you believe? Mr. Ribaudo will take you down the slippery slopes of those folks who claim nothing happen. And the simple reason that most of their reactions are so crazy is they simply cannot deal with the dramatic paradigm shift that they would have to make if the Artifacts were real. Just another bit of history. The City of Rhoda is located near Sedona, Arizona.


Jake Walzer`s ancestors were part of the 157 survivors of the holocast that befell the people. There maybe more but these names are all we have in the book of the people located in the library in South Africa. Jake`s ancestor`s along with others migrated east to what is now known as such states as New York and Georgia. Eventually Jake`s family left America and returned to Germany. They lived there for many years handing down the traditions of the people and the oral histories that were their heritage. Jake left Germany to visit South Africa, because there existed and still does the largest colony of the people. You see Jake was all along on a journey of going home. He knew from the wonderous stories he heard as a child of the treasure his people hid in the Superstition Mountains and that in each generation some would return to those mountains to protect those treasures. Along with others he spread stories of lost gold mines and whatever else was needed to simply keep people away from the holy. He served the people in this role for many many years.


So that is enough for now.


Mr. Ribaudo,

Hopefully you will complete your homework assignment and return with a positive attitude.

You know the site on Bluff Spring Mountain was located by a local and written up somewhere. You might want to see if you can find it.

On another point I understand from an associate, a gatekeeper, that you were invited years ago to visit Eldorado Canyon, Nevada. Shame you could not make the trip. You could have seen where the Tucson Artifacts were created.


Starman

 

[Ellie Baba]

Hal,

Initially I was told by a very good authority a number of years ago that Woolsey, rather JW was interred adjacent to King. I later located a book written about the life and history of King written by a research author who also mentioned this fact that the two were interred one by the other.

I would have to find this book in my library once I return to Phoenix, hopefully in the next month or two. Waltz's current plot location is an important clue related to the depository area located in Phoenix. The maps contain a great number of clues relating to the location of this cache; Copperhead Road and the reversal of two streets located on Henshaw (Buckeye Road).

Bottom line is determining where he was initially interred. This point has really piqued my interest.

Thank-you Hal!

Ellie B

 

[cactusjumper]

Mr. Crove

While I am happy to answer your questions when I can, I do have expectations that you will at least make an effort to answer mine. My questions have a purpose and if you take the time to answer them who knows where this conversation may go. On the other hand if you wish to understand Mr. Walzer on a certain level I am perfectly happy to sit on the sidelines. I will give it one more go and no more if you do not return the respect I afford you.

The oral tradition of Esconolea and the written history of the Tucson Artifacts are powerful tools to understand the history of Calalus. Imagine the history of Esconolea is roughly the same as one that would have been written by a Northern historian living at the time of the Civil War. The Tucson Artifacts speak of the same war but it is written by a Southern historian living at the time of the war of Northern Aggression. Obviously there is great merit in considering the value of such histories. This is why I mentioned these two sources so you could see the different perspectives. Now let us imagine that after the war there are another group of folks who come along to write histories that claim the War never occurred. Who would you believe? Mr. Ribaudo will take you down the slippery slopes of those folks who claim nothing happen. And the simple reason that most of their reactions are so crazy is they simply cannot deal with the dramatic paradigm shift that they would have to make if the Artifacts were real. Just another bit of history. The City of Rhoda is located near Sedona, Arizona.


Jake Walzer`s ancestors were part of the 157 survivors of the holocast that befell the people. There maybe more but these names are all we have in the book of the people located in the library in South Africa. Jake`s ancestor`s along with others migrated east to what is now known as such states as New York and Georgia. Eventually Jake`s family left America and returned to Germany. They lived there for many years handing down the traditions of the people and the oral histories that were their heritage. Jake left Germany to visit South Africa, because there existed and still does the largest colony of the people. You see Jake was all along on a journey of going home. He knew from the wonderous stories he heard as a child of the treasure his people hid in the Superstition Mountains and that in each generation some would return to those mountains to protect those treasures. Along with others he spread stories of lost gold mines and whatever else was needed to simply keep people away from the holy. He served the people in this role for many many years.


So that is enough for now.


Mr. Ribaudo,

Hopefully you will complete your homework assignment and return with a positive attitude.

You know the site on Bluff Spring Mountain was located by a local and written up somewhere. You might want to see if you can find it.

On another point I understand from an associate, a gatekeeper, that you were invited years ago to visit Eldorado Canyon, Nevada. Shame you could not make the trip. You could have seen where the Tucson Artifacts were created.


Starman

Ben,

What makes you think that I didn't go there on my own? It is, after all, a tourist site. You asked about the picture I posted. As you well know, you posted that picture as Late' and immediately took it down. Since you had told me it was in Eldorado Canyon, it was a simple matter to find the very picture you posted, and I re-posted it at the Forum.

In all the years that I have known you, you have never yet kept your word or met the people you made arrangements with. I have never been at your beck and call and never will be. I am not your student.

As I stated, Tevis had a tendency to stretch the truth a bit......much like you do. Speaking of Tevis, who the hell is Esconolea? He is not mentioned in any Apache history that I have ever seen Other than a close match for "Mule", there is no familiarity in the other Apache words in his narrative.

Like any good historical NOVEL, there is truth mixed in with the fiction written by Tevis's daughters.

On the other hand, while professor Covey was very critical of others mistakes, he made a number of them himself. Calling Grenville Goodwin, "Grenville Gorton", being the most egregious.

Where is "Montezmua City"?

If you boys are going to regurgitate this story......you better tighten up your research.

Good luck with that, at this late date.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

Ellie,

I would suggest you contact Zentull for accurate information on burials from that era.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[Hal Croves]

starman,

Ask any question you may have. If I can answer it, I will... either publicly or via PM. I am honestly a bit confused by your last post because you have made it seem as if I have intentionally ignored your questions. Which questions? If I have, it was certainly not intentional and I don't consider myself one that would disrespect anyone. Just the opposite I would argue.

Lets start that conversation you wrote about, taking baby steps and building mutual trust. I asked about the date of Walzer's emigration to South Africa. Do you know it? If so please help me by confirming it. If you do not know it, just say so.