The Book Club

[cactusjumper]

Hal,

In post #107, I should have mentioned that Barry Fell is an author, Professor Emeritus of Biology at Harvard University, as well as being the President of The Epigraphic Society. I have two of his books, which often seem to be a bit of a stretch (logic) for me, as well as "The Epigraphic Society Occasional Papers, Volume 19" from 1990. He is also a friend and colleague of Professor Cyclone Covey, who wrote the only commercially published book on Calalus.

I believe the article in volume 19, cited above, gives a fair and extensive view of the pros and cons of the Tucson Artifacts, and should be a must have for anyone researching the subject. It bares repeating that Fell and Covey are friends. Professor Covey has written articles for The Epigraphic Society Occasional Papers.

A number of good copies can be found here:

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/Sea...ociety+Occasional+Papers,+Volume+19&x=68&y=12

Good luck,

Joe

 

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[cactusjumper]

Hal,

Here are some excerpts from ESOP, Volume 19:

Dating the Calalus Texts (5 pp) Barry Fell & Marshall Payn 19-p 115 In an interview with Marshall Payn, Fell cites linguistic and epigraphic evidence that the Calalus inscriptions and artifacts are modern. The only “good” Latin in the inscriptions comes from heraldic mottoes of the nobility as well as known quotes from Virgil, Horace, etc. The rest is what Fell calls “ignorant dog-Latin” with grammatical errors and misspellings. He suggests that the Calalus objects may have been the regalia of some order of Freemasons with special interest in Hebrews. He believes, however, that neither the finder, Tom Bent, or his son, had any connection with any fraudulent plan to deceive. Cyclone Covey first showed Fell photographs of the artifacts in 1977 and Payn later arranged with Bent to let Fell study certain of the originals. Calalus: a Hard Look (3 pp) Michael Skupin 19-p 120 Skupin concurs with Fell's findings concerning the "Tucson Artifacts," underscoring the many errors in the “dog-Latin.” He remarks that the Hebrew on the inscriptions also shows a modern and uninformed touch, that the Hebrew phrases were probably copied from a reference work of some kind. He concludes that the inscriptions are modern. Cyclone Covey had implied that faculty members of the Wake Forest University Classics Department had participated in the translation of the artifacts, but Skupin found no members of that Department had any desire to claim such credit and firmly disassociated themselves from the matter. The Tucson ArtiFacts: A Fingerprint (1 p) Michael Skupin 19-p 122 Skupin suggests that one of the “dog-Latin” errors that makes no sense in Latin or in English translation would make sense if the author was a Spanish speaker. This clue to the origin of the artifacts should be taken into account. The Tucson Artifacts: Starting from Scratch (1 p) Michael Skupin 19-p 123 Skupin, at the suggestion of George F. Carter, corresponded with Julian D. Hayden regarding the Tuscon artifacts. Hayden replied that he remembered when the finds were made and had kept up with the situation. He described how he believed the artifacts were inserted from the side under layers of undis- turbed caliche. He noted that there was little or no corrosion on the lead artifacts, but lead-sheathed phone cables placed in Tucson caliche tend to corrode badly even in a short period of time. Further, the caliche layer into which the objects were inserted dated to a period 9,000-24,000 years ago. The Tucson Artifacts: A Rebuttal to Skupin (4 pp) Chris Hardaker 19-p 124 Hardaker was hired by ISAC to examine and summarize archaeological investigations of the Tucson artifacts. He points out that few participants in the discussion had read further than Covey's book, "Calalus," and thus few were arguing with a full grasp of the events that occurred. Skupin and the Epigraphic Society had concluded that the artifacts were buried in the 19th century by some club or cult and they were not a hoax per se while most modern archaeologists believe it was a hoax. He scolds Skupin for “not doing his homework” and the “cynical, cocky overtone of his presentation.” Hardaker concludes that Skupin and Fell have “postulated the who and the why,” but “have not succeeded in putting it all together to explain how.” On the Level with the Tucson Artifacts (17 pp) Bill Rudersclorf 19-p 128 The author discusses the symbols and inscriptions on the artifacts in some detail and relates them to Masonic symbols and practices. He points out that a possible connection with Spanish Freemasonry and, by extension, with Masonry as practiced in Mexico. Comments on Criticism of Calalus (1 p) Cyclone Covey 19-p 145 Covey defends his portrayal of the Tucson site and artifacts in his book. He states that he and the colleagues he consulted were quite aware of the linguistic errors in the Tucson inscriptions. He states that he and the Bents welcome proof or disproof of the material equally. If They were Aspirin: Questions About the Tucson Artifacts (1 p) Jane Eppinga 19-p 146 Jane Eppinga, a Freelance Writer living near Tucson, recommends a more thorough investigationof the artifacts and all the infromation available concerning their discovery. ______________________________________________________ It looks like I'm not the only one trying to lead folks down a "slippery slope". Take care, Joe

 

[hooch]

Ofcourse they are going to deny it, "history is hard to know, because of all the hired bullshit."

 

[Ellie Baba]

Ellie,

I would suggest you contact Zentull for accurate information on burials from that era.

Good luck,

Joe

Thanks in advance...however, I do not have a clue as to whom or what represents Zentull.

Have a great week!

EB

 

[cactusjumper]

Ellie,

Wayne Tuttle. He and Randy Wright are running the Rendezvous.

I believe Wayne is the most knowledgeable on that kind of information......unless he's using Roberts as one of his sources.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Ofcourse they are going to deny it, "history is hard to know, because of all the hired bullshit."

Kind of reminds one of what has gone on with the Stone Maps. Attack on the people who make their living from examining artifacts, by folks who know little about the science.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

“History isn't like that. History unravels gently, like an old sweater. It has been patched and darned many times, reknitted to suit different people, shoved in a box under the sink of censorship to be cut up for the dusters of propaganda, yet it always - eventually - manages to spring back into its old familar shape. History has a habit of changing the people who think they are changing it. History always has a few tricks up its frayed sleeve. It's been around a long time.”

terry pratchett

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

allow me to go with this one.
i had some "friends" in my car last weekend..babbling on about mining in jerome area..when the women begins screaming at me..."if you know where there is gold..why don't you get it?"
all snottie like i made up the information...actually called me a liar...so i pulled the car over, right there an then...got out a plastic bag, scouped up some dirt from the exposed bedrock by the side of the road...took a gallon of water an my gold pan out of the trunk..an roughly panned out the dirt in front of them...
of course, i lose most of the metal, but there in the pan, is enough gold to see...yep, gold.
an this couple starts in like i salted the pan in front of them...
ya just can't get through to some people...facts are something they avoid.

 

[starman 1]

Jack Walzer

Mr. Croves:

I believe your question is do I know the year Walzer went to South Africa. Why yes I do. I know the ship he took, I know the village he stayed at and the the family he lived with. Of course to get you to that point would also give you a pretty good clue as to where the colony of the people live and where the museum I have spoken of is. At this point in time the trust element is not high enough to do that. Having said that a smart researcher might want to consider that if as I have mentioned Jacob`s family migrated to Germany from America it might be pretty simple to find the records of a family migrating from America to Germany with a small boy named Jacob Walzer.


The questions I am refering to were included in my posts here that are designated by this system as post 78, post 89 and post 95. Simply pick say 1 and give me your thoughts.

In return I will answer one more of your questions.

Gatekeeper is the name given to the protectors of the people. These individuals were seperated from the regular military command and in the modern world would be the equivalent of special forces troops. Their primary responsibilities included protecting the Gates of Rhoda, the holy sites and mining operations in the Superstitions, and protecting the Colonies foundaries and weapons making facilities in Eldorado Canyon. In the last days of the people they were the ones who died to the man protecting the holy sites in the Superstitions and the treasures of the people and the ancients until they could be hidden. Most of them were butchered in what we call the Canyon of the Souls. Their remains were returned to the people in the last century and buried in a cemetary in South Africa. Before the fall of Rhoda they were charged with creating the Tucson Artifacts and saving as many individuals as they could for the trek east. They coordinated the meeting place at what is now Silverbell Road. When the refugees met up at the designated place it was determined that there was not enough room in the carts for a number of small children and wounded. The decision was made to dump the Tucson Artifacts to make room for 14 additional survivors.


Mr. Ribaudo

Since you seem to be confused on names just simply refer to me as Starman.


This bears repeating:

"As long as you persist on simply repeating the same mistakes that others have made then you will get no where with an understanding of the artifacts. Get a copy of Bent`s work again. Read it till it sinks in. Look at the pictures and ask yourself where have you seen landscapes that are recorded there. Just one example: The circumstances surrounding the discoveries of artifacts 6 and 7 on 01/24/1925 prove the artifacts were not planted. You just have to look at where the artifacts were found and who insisted Bent and Manier look there. Also on artifact 7(front Portion) is a carving of the saddle that is high up on the east side of West Boulder Canyon. Above that is a symbol of the ancients. That symbol is still up there. The artifact is showing you where a trail of the ancients begins and the back shows you where the trail ends.

Your work on the trail maps took you to little Boulder Canyon, artifact 7 will take you to the end of the trail. You really do not need the other trail maps or an understanding of how the two maps that are known can take you there".

If all you can do is repeat the same old worn out secondary sources there really is nothing to talk about. If you want to discuss the Tucson Artifacts do your homework.



Starman

 

[cactusjumper]

Mr. Croves:

I believe your question is do I know the year Walzer went to South Africa. Why yes I do. I know the ship he took, I know the village he stayed at and the the family he lived with. Of course to get you to that point would also give you a pretty good clue as to where the colony of the people live and where the museum I have spoken of is. At this point in time the trust element is not high enough to do that. Having said that a smart researcher might want to consider that if as I have mentioned Jacob`s family migrated to Germany from America it might be pretty simple to find the records of a family migrating from America to Germany with a small boy named Jacob Walzer.


The questions I am refering to were included in my posts here that are designated by this system as post 78, post 89 and post 95. Simply pick say 1 and give me your thoughts.

In return I will answer one more of your questions.

Gatekeeper is the name given to the protectors of the people. These individuals were seperated from the regular military command and in the modern world would be the equivalent of special forces troops. Their primary responsibilities included protecting the Gates of Rhoda, the holy sites and mining operations in the Superstitions, and protecting the Colonies foundaries and weapons making facilities in Eldorado Canyon. In the last days of the people they were the ones who died to the man protecting the holy sites in the Superstitions and the treasures of the people and the ancients until they could be hidden. Most of them were butchered in what we call the Canyon of the Souls. Their remains were returned to the people in the last century and buried in a cemetary in South Africa. Before the fall of Rhoda they were charged with creating the Tucson Artifacts and saving as many individuals as they could for the trek east. They coordinated the meeting place at what is now Silverbell Road. When the refugees met up at the designated place it was determined that there was not enough room in the carts for a number of small children and wounded. The decision was made to dump the Tucson Artifacts to make room for 14 additional survivors.


Mr. Ribaudo

Since you seem to be confused on names just simply refer to me as Starman.


This bears repeating:

"As long as you persist on simply repeating the same mistakes that others have made then you will get no where with an understanding of the artifacts. Get a copy of Bent`s work again. Read it till it sinks in. Look at the pictures and ask yourself where have you seen landscapes that are recorded there. Just one example: The circumstances surrounding the discoveries of artifacts 6 and 7 on 01/24/1925 prove the artifacts were not planted. You just have to look at where the artifacts were found and who insisted Bent and Manier look there. Also on artifact 7(front Portion) is a carving of the saddle that is high up on the east side of West Boulder Canyon. Above that is a symbol of the ancients. That symbol is still up there. The artifact is showing you where a trail of the ancients begins and the back shows you where the trail ends.

Your work on the trail maps took you to little Boulder Canyon, artifact 7 will take you to the end of the trail. You really do not need the other trail maps or an understanding of how the two maps that are known can take you there".

If all you can do is repeat the same old worn out secondary sources there really is nothing to talk about. If you want to discuss the Tucson Artifacts do your homework.



Starman

OK.......Starman or Martin Walzer or Jack Walzer,

Why do you keep insisting that I have been repeating that the Artifacts were planted? I have long maintained that it is doubtful that Bent or Manier actually planted the artifacts. On the other hand, the evidence certainly is, somewhat overwhelming, that they are objects made by and for a masonic lodge in Mexico.

If you, or Ben Davis, or any of the multitude of aliases that post on this matter were part of OZ and the removal of it's treasures and library, just post one (1) picture of the contents of OZ. Surely you have pictures that would not endanger the entire operation. Otherwise, you are just one more of the many who claim, each year, to know where the LDM is.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

Garry,

I did not forget that you wanted copies of the McGee/Bent letters. I asked Paul to make an extra set for you, which I believe he is doing. If you want the Bent Manuscript, get in touch with Paul.

I find it a bit incredulous that that these guys are still peddling this story after all these years. The elephant in the room remains........WHY? The only answer I have ever been able to conjure-up, is a future book, most likely done by Ben Davis. He does seem to have a lot of time on his hands. I am still anxiously waiting for K. Roberts book to hit the bookstores.

Take care,

Joe

 

[starman 1]

the Artifacts

Mr. Ribaudo:

This bears repeating:

"As long as you persist on simply repeating the same mistakes that others have made then you will get no where with an understanding of the artifacts. Get a copy of Bent`s work again. Read it till it sinks in. Look at the pictures and ask yourself where have you seen landscapes that are recorded there. Just one example: The circumstances surrounding the discoveries of artifacts 6 and 7 on 01/24/1925 prove the artifacts were not planted. You just have to look at where the artifacts were found and who insisted Bent and Manier look there. Also on artifact 7(front Portion) is a carving of the saddle that is high up on the east side of West Boulder Canyon. Above that is a symbol of the ancients. That symbol is still up there. The artifact is showing you where a trail of the ancients begins and the back shows you where the trail ends.

Your work on the trail maps took you to little Boulder Canyon, artifact 7 will take you to the end of the trail. You really do not need the other trail maps or an understanding of how the two maps that are known can take you there".

If all you can do is repeat the same old worn out secondary sources there really is nothing to talk about. If you want to discuss the Tucson Artifacts do your homework.

If you are willing to discuss the specifics of the above I will be happy to do so. As someone who has labored for so many years in the Superstitions the end of the trail is a lot closer than you think. As far as the rest of your posts goes save the silliness for someone who cares.

If you persist on frolicking in the craziness of the folks who have looked at this for many years please continue. After all at one time the craziness was perpetuated by our people to discredit the artifacts when it served the people to do so.


Starman

 

[cactusjumper]

Martin,

Forgot to mention, I also have Volume 51, #1, Spring 2009 Of the "Journal Of The Southwest". In truth, it stands head and shoulders above any other work done on the Tucson Artifacts. It is 102 pages long, with an additional 24 pages of very good pictures of the artifacts. Many of the pictures are close up and show fine detail.

Considering I took the time and effort, not to mention the expense of getting Bent's manuscript, as well as the letters between the McGees and Bent, I can hardly see where you can say I have not done my homework. Do you have all of those letters?

There are many, many professional archaeologists who don't agree with "Starman's" conclusions or, for that matter, Professor Covey's. While we have those people's credentials, we have nothing from Ben Davis, or yourself. Right now, the hook you are hanging your hat on, wouldn't support a thimble.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[starman 1]

the artifacts

Mr. Ribaudo

I am sure you have an impressive library but that is not the point is it? I believe I have read the article you mention and have to admit his work is impressive but his conclusions are a bit overcooked. I personally like the ones that say the Confederates did it and you did mention a body of work that suggests the artifacts were made up for some Masons in Mexico.

What I am trying to get you to see is these people have looked at the artifacts in a way that precludes any type of fundamental thinking. None have even begun to grasp the signifance of the artifacts as a map. Whether it be a map of the ancient world, Rome, Britain, Gaul, and Calalus, or a map of a specific location within the world. The Superstition Mountains of Arizona. Your saddle is on the artifacts, a map to the end of the trail is there also. You just have to see it.

I really only wish you the best, and the Gatekeepers you have known have no bad feelings for you they are only carrying out the will of the people and protecting that which is holy. Only the people can decide what to make public and what to keep secret, and for that matter what waters should be tested.

You have been given a gift. What you do with it is for you to decide.




Starman

 

[cactusjumper]

Mr. Ribaudo

I am sure you have an impressive library but that is not the point is it? I believe I have read the article you mention and have to admit his work is impressive but his conclusions are a bit overcooked. I personally like the ones that say the Confederates did it and you did mention a body of work that suggests the artifacts were made up for some Masons in Mexico.

What I am trying to get you to see is these people have looked at the artifacts in a way that precludes any type of fundamental thinking. None have even begun to grasp the signifance of the artifacts as a map. Whether it be a map of the ancient world, Rome, Britain, Gaul, and Calalus, or a map of a specific location within the world. The Superstition Mountains of Arizona. Your saddle is on the artifacts, a map to the end of the trail is there also. You just have to see it.

I really only wish you the best, and the Gatekeepers you have known have no bad feelings for you they are only carrying out the will of the people and protecting that which is holy. Only the people can decide what to make public and what to keep secret, and for that matter what waters should be tested.

You have been given a gift. What you do with it is for you to decide.




Starman

Starman,

While it may seem that I have some kind of personal grudge against you, or the people or person who ran the original deceitful game on myself, my friends and the the Museum, it all really just makes me smile. It was a very long, as well as a very good story. I can't wait to see it in print.......From Ben and the Gatekeeper's perspective.

"I really only wish you the best, and the Gatekeepers you have known have no bad feelings for you they are only carrying out the will of the people and protecting that which is holy. Only the people can decide what to make public and what to keep secret, and for that matter what waters should be tested."

OK, I accept that as true. I would ask you again......WHY? You have given those of us who are familiar with the Superstitions, all that would be needed to find your "holy" place there. Why the constant hints, up to this day, and why should we study the only evidence available to understand the truth.....as you seem to believe it?

Why did Ben lie about the museum's lack of response to his initial offer to place certain things with the museum. You see, I know he lied because I have his e-mails, the museum's emails and those from my good friend Dave, who I put Ben in contact with in the first place.

Believe any of you? Not a chance! Fool me once........

On the other hand, I do wish you all the best.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

Starman,

"I am sure you have an impressive library but that is not the point is it? I believe I have read the article you mention and have to admit his work is impressive but his conclusions are a bit overcooked. I personally like the ones that say the Confederates did it and you did mention a body of work that suggests the artifacts were made up for some Masons in Mexico."

It's obvious to me, that you have not read the book I referenced. It's your comments that make it obvious.

I do have a nice collection of books, but they always reflect both sides of any subject I'm interested in. That makes me able to argue both sides of the debate. Since I can't experience these things in real time and place, the next best thing, in my estimation, is to read all that I can on any given topic. Makes for an ever enlarging library, and shrinking wallet, but I'm addicted to the habit.

At this point, I believe I have read just about all that is available, including the differing opinions. Taking that all into account, I arrived at my own opinions. Seem like a prudent approach to me. Perhaps someone with a more formal education might find that lacking in some kind of logic. I confess, it eludes me.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Hal Croves]

starman,

Based on what you have written, especially concerning your conclusions for Walzer coming to Arizona Territory, I have decided to pass on answering any of your three questions. Admit it, the effort would be in vain as you are clearly cemented in your beliefs... which deserves some measure of credit. So, please disregard my question regarding the date of Walzer's emigration to South Africa. If it happened, and if there is a record of it, I will eventually find it and share it here without conditions.

There is a whole other side to Walzer's story that you seem not able or willing to appreciate. A story that is far more interesting and accessible than the one that you are promoting. Walzer was a broken man, as was Duppa. Take the time to see them as they were... always in self-exile, haunted by their own personal demons. True "individualists". Walzer was a man, nothing more, nothing less.

And regarding the undiscovered history of the America's, most intelligent people understand that early man traveled much further than what is considered "accepted" history. Those discoveries are in their infancy and poorly understood and I will agree with you that just about anything is possible. But Walzer as a "gatekeeper"? Now that I know what one is... well, this is where we part ways.

A word about cactusjumper. This hard salami has been breaking my balls for a few years now. But in some twisted way I am in his debt because I know that anything I write will be scrutinized by him and if incorrect, challenged without reservation. It makes one try harder and dig a little deeper for the truth.

 

[cactusjumper]

All of the evidence I have presented against the truthfulness of the history for Calalus is readily available to anyone who is following this thread. The evidence by Starman, Klondike, Late49er, Ben Davis......etc., is not available to any one, but them.

They bring stories that are a mix of history and fiction. Where I come from, we call that an historical novel. We see quotes from the book written about James H. Tevis, using a story from his best Indian friend named Esconolea. Not faulting Tevis here, but you would think that someone like Cyclone Covey would, at least, make sure such an Apache even existed and correct the name.

Who did the research into Grenville Goodwin and then butchered his last name.....more than once.

It became so obvious that, like they often did, the Apache were mixing real history with native folklore. In this case, the Spanish conquest of Mexico with, perhaps, the wild story that may have been told to Tevis.

Once again, you should be cautioned by Russell C. Ewing's Forward: "The reader of these memoirs may question the accuracy of some of Tevis's statements. A few minor errors of fact do occur, yet they were not the results of fabrication; Tevis recorded them as he believed the to be; not as they were in the light of historical criticism. If there be exaggerations and tall tales in the book, the reader should remember that this was characteristic of time and place. Frontiersmen were not given to understatement. Theirs was an exciting life which stirred even the dullest of imaginations."

Joe Ribaudo

You can find copies of Tevis's book here:

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/Sea...00&recentlyadded=all&sortby=1&sts=t&x=63&y=10

 

[Hal Croves]

Back to Walzer's cousin Charles Hauselt.

Sometime after 1890, Oscar Scherer (with his brother Albert?) took control of the Charles Hauselt Company and renamed it Oscar Scherer and Brother., Inc. It may have been Oscar who invented the "Kid Glaze" product line in 72' or 78'. Oscar was married (1883) to Ann B. Hauselt (b. 1865), daughter of Edward Hauselt the New York wine merchant and brother of Charles Hauselt. Ann's sister Emma lived with them at their home in New York City. Oscar and Ann were survived by one child named Elsa Scherer Burrows (b. 1884). When Elsa died in 1955, she willed the families 462 acre estate to the state of Florida to be preserved as a park. Today it is much larger and called the Oscar Scherer State Park. http://www.funandsun.com/parks/OscarScherer/oscarscherer.html

View attachment 741500
Oscar Scherer b. 13 Dec, 1856 Warsaw, IL.

View attachment 741499
Boot & Shoe Recorder. June 25, 1921

 

[Hal Croves]

A little background on Oscar Scherer.

Oscar was the son of Franz Joseph Nepomuk Scherer (b.1824 e.1848 d.1907), a saloon keeper from Landau, Germany and Anna Katherine Kern Scherer (b.1827 d.1867). Oscar's siblings were Robert, Adele Scherer Buchling (her children were Henrietta & Adele), Albert G., and the much loved Armand Jacob Scherer. Armand (b.1858 d.1923) was married on September 11th, 1883 to Pauline S. Schott (b.1863). That same evening after they were married, Armand and Pauline moved from Warsaw, IL. to Kansas City where they ran a business until selling it in 1898. They were quite busy in those fifteen years running the family business and raising twelve children. Armand was a member of the I.O.O.F., the Knights of Pythias, and St. Johns Evangelical Church.

Armand and Pauline's children were:

Louisa Katherine Barnard Clement (b.1884 d.1977)
Myra Alexine Hoke (b.1886 d.1968)
Katherine Anna Haller (b.1887 d.1986)
Julia Adele (b.1889 d.1979)
Frank John (b.1882 d.1973)
Edward Armand (b.1893 d.1900)
Albert George (b.1896 d.1983)
Bertha Pauline Ervin (b.1898 d.1994)
Hazel May Falk (b.1901 d.1986)
Anna Barbara (b.1903 d.1997)
Theodore Oscar (b.1905 d.1990)
Laura Augusta Hensley Allen (b.1908 d.1996)

View attachment 741511
Armand Scherer

View attachment 741512
Armand & Pauline Schott Scherer