The First Gun -14th century - Handgonne

[goldnow]

This is an update on a find of a few months ago that I posted here thinking maybe it was a fireworks or a salute cannon from the 1800's. They are collectible, but obviously a piece was missing; the base. After some unrewarding research I put it on the shelf and forgot about it.

Original post link; http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,249083.msg1780783.html#msg1780783

Then I posted another find a week ago of a swan formed wheelock gun key/spanner and another poster (sorry I can't remember exactly who at the moment, but thank you) gave me a link which led to another and Voila! I found out what my original piece is;
The original hand gun, or in the correct vernacular "handgonne" or "hand cannon". circa 1380.

Basically they were little cannons that you lit with a match by hand, then in 1410 they added to the invention a mechanism (called the serpentine) to light the gunpowder mechanically which is known as the Matchlock, then the Wheelock was introduced, then the Flintlock, then the Colt, until what we have today as a hand gun....The last picture shows the order in which guns developed.

Mine would be attached to the end of a long wood stock and held in place with iron bands.
The second to last picture of museum pieces gives you a good idea...

This one is 15mm bore, and is only 4" long. They were not very accurate, but made a lot of noise in battle.

If you google " handgonne images" or "hand cannon images" you will be able to see many variations of this early invention. Wikipedia also has an article on them.

I spent hours trying to find out its value amongst all the history of the piece, but to no avail. They are rarer than rare. Only some museums seem to have a few examples of them. No two are exactly the same. If anyone can help on evaluating this handgonne, I'd be most appreciative.

 

[tinpan]

Thanks for sharing, Very interesting Sorry don,t know much about early hand guns.

tinpan awsome old find

 

[allen]

that is a really fascinating find !!

 

[goldnow]

Thank you. I'm sure many of us have found things , didn't exactly appreciate them for what they are/were, then discovered we had a treasure. My wife kept taking it off the shelf and putting it in the junk iron pile in the basement, where I would retrieve it, knowing there was something special about it.

I never realized until a few days ago I had one of only few still in existence in the world of the original hand gun. I am surprised more people have not commented on this incredibly rare piece. Maybe because it looks ugly.

Just got out between the rain drops, where we just cut some plants down in the garden near where I found this hand gun, and I think I just found another piece that goes along with the gun; The spike that goes into the ground, or is held to absorb the recoil, like in the second to last pic, first gun.

 

[trikikiwi]

What an amazing find
I'm putting in a vote for BANNER for this. I hope we can get the support of other members and that the moderators accept its authenticity

Could you show us a pic of the additional piece you have found? Does it look anything like the other part of this handgonne found in Switzerland?


http://www.musketeer.ch/blackpowder/freienstein.html

Mike

 

[Merlyn555]

Way to go goldnow that is one fantastic piece of history you have found.

Gun collectors are a strange breed they will pay what they feel the item is worth not what the book value is. You have an extremely rare item there and if I were you I would contact Sotheby's or some other quality agency and see what they say. This piece in a specialty auction would attract collectors and buyers from museums from all over the place I think.

I wish you all the luck in your hunting...

 

[michigan michael]

Very sweet find!

 

[goldnow]

Mike (Trikikiwi),....Thanks for the link and the banner vote. Actually, it was this link and picture that I discovered and first realized what it is that I got. We are only a few kilometers away from the Swiss border in Italy, and at that time the borders were not so well defined and many historical pieces are common to both sides of the present borders.

A far as authenticity, I spoke yesterday to a collector who I sent pics to, who has a few, and he says it's the real deal.

I've added two more pics of a handgonne/hand cannon from a Swedish museum, that is a little longer, but has the exact same connecting rear wedge.

The other piece I found yesterday, I may have spoken too soon in my excitement, as it might be just a window latch that you connect open shudders to on an outside wall. The one in your picture is just a piece of iron, which I find often, so we'll never know what they were used for originally, especially after 600 years of rust at work.

*****************************************

Merlyn555,....Yes, I just found out how strange gun collectors can be from my conversation with a collector yesterday. I know nothing of guns, and have only these last few days of experience with them doing the research on this piece. I never ever even shot a gun (except a BB gun when I was 12) or have a desire to, to tell you the truth. I will take your advice and look into the auction houses you mention.

*****************************************

Memorial Magnet, Allen, Tinpan....Thank you.

 

[Gunny71]

Thats awesome! Glad I could help.
The what is it forum is the schnitzz!

I vote Banner as well!

 

[Rusted_Iron]

This may be the best iron relic I have ever seen on Tnet. I am surprised it hasn't gotten more replies. I guess fellow Tnetters don't know what they're missing!

 

[goldnow]

"This may be the best iron relic I have ever seen on Tnet. I am surprised it hasn't gotten more replies. I guess fellow Tnetters don't know what they're missing!"

Thanks Rusted_Iron,...Yes, I agree with you. They like to see 1916-D dimes more, I guess.. This post was an updated post to a previous post, that I included with a link, but that was somehow breaking the rules of "Today's Finds", so they moved it here, so not so many replies. There are maybe only 50 or less of these in the world, and very few in private hands, mostly in museums and guarded as very important Medieval weapons. I think mine is the smallest one, from my investigations so far on the internet.

As value goes, one auction house suggests it is worth between $3000 and $4500. Strangely, there are not that many collectors aware of these existence, so the demand is low. Plus the Asians were making them into the 18-19th century. But these European ones faded out by 1400.

Everyday I look for another in the vicinity. So I dig a lot of big rusty iron everyday.

It is truly the original handgun.

 

[Rusted_Iron]

I suspect there are a lot more 1916-D dimes in existence than there are 14th Century handgonnes.

True about the demand, though. Often the rarest objects are the least understood, and can go ignored in favor of more common things that everybody knows better. We have this in the States with Hess trucks..... it's one collectible everybody knows. At a garage sale, everybody and their brother will pick one up... yet if that 14th C. handgonne were sitting next to it, probably nobody would pick it up all weekend. Except me. :-D

The better you document the find (pics of dig location, etc) the better. I bet you have some beautiful vineyards in your area of the world.

I wonder what conservation methods your museums use for iron relics of that age?

 

[goldnow]

Most of the property around here was formally vineyards, with 7 foot tall hand cut granite posts still in the ground that supported the canopy type vines, as opposed to the fence like style they use today. The lands kind of look like tall thin graveyards in full moon. But they have all been abandoned decades ago, as the area's population migrated to the cities after WWII.

To conserve iron, which I do as living in my antique business, is clean the rust off before any shine of metal appears leaving the patina, by using a wire brush (only if necessary), then sand paper, and finalizing with steel wool, then give it a coat of bee's wax. Works perfectly and comes out beautifully. I have no idea how the museums go about it.

I have not touched this hand gonne, though, and the patina that is on it now, only comes from my natural hand oils.

My wife wanted to throw it away. My best friend and very successful/lucky antique dealer gave it no confidence and laughed at me, and another dealer friend needed more and more proof it is what I say it is. Needless to say they are all very surprised now, so I can understand most people's reaction to it.

The one collector in the USA, who claims to have the largest private collection of only six pieces, immediately made me an offer (low would be an understatement). His original skepticism (or buying/stealing pitch) was based on that the firing hole is on the side, where most have it on top. But no two are ever the same as far as I can see. The Auction house returned my email in less than hour with the estimate, and the expert in Switzerland , though originally skeptical, because the locking wedge on the rear was unknown to him previously, was convinced after seeing the one in the Swedish museum.

 

[Peter]

Hi guys

This is very interesting.

Goldnow: The pics you posted are actually from the National Museum of Copenhagen, Denmark. I took them, but feel free to use them
However, I don't remember posting them online anywhere, which is why I am a bit curious of where you found them.