The Lost Doc Thorne Mine - was it the same mine of Jacob Waltz?

[Cubfan64]

Donald, you keep doing that and you're gonna cause some serious damage . By the way, can't make any definitive ID of the piece of metal you gave me at the Rendezvous. No significant nitrogen compounds - at least nothing more than one would expect from a dirty piece of iron. Wish I could tell you more, but that's all I could do on this one .

We're better at ID'ing crystal structures like gems and minerals - like the peridot you sent me that time!

I'm shooting for an opportunity to come out again this spring. If I do, I'll give you a shout and perhaps we can get together and you can show me some interesting Native American ruins!

 

[markmar]

Paul

I am not hanged on your post , just you posted when I was writing my post .

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

yea, I really need to back away from those brick walls...

too bad about that chunk of metal...can you hold on to it? perhaps show some of the eastern antique weapons experts just hanging out at the local information hub?

i'll show you what I know...anytime sir.

 

[Cubfan64]

yea, I really need to back away from those brick walls...

too bad about that chunk of metal...can you hold on to it? perhaps show some of the eastern antique weapons experts just hanging out at the local information hub?

i'll show you what I know...anytime sir.

I'll hold onto it for sure. I'll send you a link tonight to some ruins that I'd love to go see sometime - not particularly easy to get to from what I read, but that makes it all the more interesting to see them since they probably don't get as much "traffic" to damage them. Someone from the Rendezvous went recently and said it was a difficult trip but well worth it. Get your legs in shape and I'll promise to lose some weight and do the same.

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

 

[cactusjumper]

Technically speaking, I think Marius wins this one Joe. You didn't say you hadn't seen a map proven to have come from the Peralta family in Mexico, you just said you had never seen a map signed by Peraltas. The Fish map (whether authentic or not) definitely has a Peralta signature. The problem is it's unlikely anyone will ever be able to prove it really was signed by a Peralta, while at the same time it's unlikely anyone will ever be able to prove it wasn't.


That's the nature of treasure hunting - if it was provable and easy, anyone could do it .

Paul,

Well........technically speaking, I have never seen a map that was signed by a Peralta. On the other hand, I have seen copies of maps that were said to be signed by Peralta's. I do believe that Frank Peralta's signature on the bottom of the Fish Map (copy) is legit. I knew Frank.

Once again:



There are many people who have attached themselves and or their families to the many treasure maps that are said to be authentic waybills to various treasures/mines. The LDM and the Superstitions have a plethora of such maps.

I try to be as accurate as possible in my statements, but assuredly fall short now and again.

Take care,

Joe

 

[somehiker]

I believe I have a photo from one of my hikes that looks remarkably like that one - I'll see if I can find it tonight. I thought it was an interesting view as well.

You will probably find it sequential to your photos of the mountain lion, since the vantage point overlooks the place where you stared the beast down...

Best:Wayne

 

[somehiker]

Hello Wayne

This picture was took from Black Cross Mesa ?

If you mean Black Cross Butte....no.
Horse Mesa.....next one over from BCB.
No wagon or cart tracks up there though, so far as I know.
It would be far too much work to haul both cart (knocked down) and cargo to the top of Horse Mesa, and very little area up top, where the use of a carreta would be practical.

Regards:Wayne

 

[markmar]

If you mean Black Cross Butte....no.
Horse Mesa.....next one over from BCB.
No wagon or cart tracks up there though, so far as I know.
It would be far too much work to haul both cart (knocked down) and cargo to the top of Horse Mesa, and very little area up top, where the use of a carreta would be practical.

Regards:Wayne

I don't mean Black Cross Butte , but the Black Cross mark on the west end of Horse Mesa .

PS

Wayne , my instinct says how you was searching for evidences about Cristobal Peralta map . I am correct ? If yes , you are in the right way . Your picture could be the same with the Cristbal's , from the first high summit near the Salt River .

 

[Cubfan64]

You will probably find it sequential to your photos of the mountain lion, since the vantage point overlooks the place where you stared the beast down...

Best:Wayne

As a matter of fact Wayne, I think I took my photo less than an hour before I saw the cat. I'll find it and post it tonight.

 

[sgtfda]

Found in the Superstitions. Photo by T K. The El Donkeyo map

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

I really don't understand this...
! bear,
oh big kittie,
let me get the camera out while the critter decides to eat me...

 

[Somero]

I really don't understand this...
! bear,
oh big kittie,
let me get the camera out while the critter decides to eat me...

Paul had it right.........get a picture of what happened so there would be little doubt, or maybe he was hoping it was camera shy.

 

[Oroblanco]

chlsbrns wrote

If any of you found a location that you thought was the lost mine how could you prove it?

We can judge by what the people whom found the Pit mine did, they mined out a sizable amount of gold, and kept pretty quiet but eventually let it get into circulation that they had done it. After the time limits of the statute of limitations had expired, of course. My guess is that many people would do much the same.

chlsbrns also wrote

What could you do with the location being that you would not be allowed to mine the location?

You could try hiring a lawyer to attempt to get legal permission to mine it through legal channels, which would involve some money and patience, but may be possible. This is assuming the mine were inside of the official wilderness boundaries, which is pure assumption until someone finds it and settles the issue. The Wilderness Act was specifically supposed to exclude known mineralized lands from inclusion within all Wildernesses, so there are grounds to try to alter the boundaries which would then allow filing a mining claim if successful. It would also mean having to prove that you really had found a gold deposit worth the mining, and probably also require reclamation bonding. Alternatively you could try to convince everyone you had found it, and write a book to sell hoping to get rich on the fame of being the finder. That route has not played out too well for those whom have tried that approach however.

chlsbrns also wrote

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek!

Glad you like my words chlsbrns, are you ashamed to name your source? Most people name the source when they quote someone. Like this:

“When you take stuff from one writer it’s plagiarism, but when you take from many writers it’s called research.”->Wilson Mizner

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[Springfield]

... You could try hiring a lawyer to attempt to get legal permission to mine it through legal channels, which would involve some money and patience, but may be possible. This is assuming the mine were inside of the official wilderness boundaries, which is pure assumption until someone finds it and settles the issue. The Wilderness Act was specifically supposed to exclude known mineralized lands from inclusion within all Wildernesses, so there are grounds to try to alter the boundaries which would then allow filing a mining claim if successful. ...

Hmmm ... as I recall, the Wilderness Act only allowed future mineral exploitation on legitimate mining claims that were up to date on the date of approval of the Act. With no current legal claims within the Superstition Wilderness, I don't believe there is any recourse available to new potential filers.

 

[Cubfan64]

This is all probably old news to the aficionados, but I found this short video interesting, especially the ruts. Ironically, wagon-wheel ruts worn into rocks (or what appear to be so), IMO, may be more of a message than they are genuine - at least in some cases, one of which I've seen in New Mexico. It might be useful to plot these ruts' location and evaluate their position in relation to other map nodes in the Superstitions.


A shot from the same area....

View attachment 902629

looking southward

Pretty close Wayne...



Oh, and it was 4 photos prior to the first "kitty" photo

 

[somehiker]

Pretty close Wayne...

View attachment 902971

Oh, and it was 4 photos prior to the first "kitty" photo

Nice "gunsite" shot. Hell, you can almost smell the gold from there...
It's even got a triangle shape down below.
Did you take it from the tall marker cairn near the top ?
I wonder if that rock used to look like this....maybe 250 years ago ?

View attachment old needle.bmp

And if you swing around, and look in the opposite direction, you get a great view of Four Peaks.
Can't do that at the "pit mine" !

 

[chlsbrns]

Yes the Doc Thorne mine is the same mine as the Jacob Waltz mine. It’s in historical records.

The United States Department of Agriculture closed the Superstition Wilderness Area to mineral entry, at midnight, on December 31, 1983, to comply with the National Wilderness Act approved by Congress in 1964. From:The Jacob Waltz ?Lost Dutchman? Exhibit | Superstition Mountain Museum

I certainly can’t prove it but I think the lost mine is the Monmouth Mine due to the hidden shaft that was found inside of another shaft. The hidden shaft was supported by ironwood. Wasn’t one of the clues that you be be in the mine shaft and not find the hidden mine? Alfred Strong Lewis found and worked the mine. History of Goldfield Minig District

You really need to look at early 1900’s topo maps (1903 to about 1915) and read thru USGS mining records.

The pic is known mines marked with X’s. The yellow pins show where there are large quantities of gold that have yet to be recovered. It’s what makes me wonder why anyone would look for a “lost mine” that may or may not exist, that may or may not contain gold and almost surely would not be mineable due to regulations when there are billions and billions of dollars worth of gold that has not been recovered.

I think it was Burger King that coined the phrase: Where’s the Beef!

 

[roadrunner]

Matt:

What made the ruts....

View attachment 902624

The ruts in Mitch Waite's photos are from a much smaller wagon, with narrower wheels and a 42" track.

Maybe something like this....

View attachment 902626

Ore (pun intended) this style with narrow wheels and a narrow width.



I have the same pic from Pinal. That you posted. Was just there.

 

[somehiker]

Found in the Superstitions. Photo by T K. The El Donkeyo map

View attachment 902906

Gotta admit, it's got me stumped.
But then again, I can't figure out that " Mucho Dinero " map either.