The Lost Dutchmans name was...Jacob Waltz, Jacob Ludy, Youngblood, Jacobs, VonWalzer

[Oroblanco]

The Lost Dutchman's name was...Jacob Waltz, Jacob Ludy, Youngblood, Jacobs, VonWalzer

Hola amigos;

This thread is to attempt to sort out the mix of people that are involved in the Lost Dutchman legend. Jacob Waltz was a real person, a successful prospector and lived in Phoenix, and is the man attributed to be the one of the Lost Dutchman by most. However there is evidence that other lost mine stories have gotten garbled into Waltz's story, like Jacob Ludy and another man also named Ludy, as we find in Barry Storm's first book Trail of the Lost Dutchman.

If these were the only issues it would not be too hard but it appears that at least two other Lost Dutchman mines have gotten confused with the one in the Superstitions, namely one in the Vultures and one in the Bradshaws, in the latter case the Dutchman was named Youngblood. The Dutchman of the Vultures had a habit of wrapping his burros feet in burlap when he would sneak out of town, so that people could not hear them, and this too has gotten blended into the Superstitions legend.

All evidence/documents relating to the Ludys (whom were involved with Peraltas and a lost silver mine in the Superstitions) as well as the other stories that have gotten confused with the mine of Jacob Waltz are invited, thank you in advance.
Oroblanco

 

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[Hal Croves]

William Ludy - The Pioneer Printer/Journeyman with gold fever.
The timing is interesting. Ludy arrives in Phoenix around 1879/8 and "drifted" away sometime around 1883. He returns to Phoenix in 1903, then again on the trail of a "bonanza" in May of 1909.

http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/l...+Ludy&y=0&x=0&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1

Arizona republican. (Phoenix, Ariz.) 1890-1930, May 24, 1909, Page 6, Image 6 « Chronicling America « Library of Congress

 

[Oroblanco]

William Ludy - The Pioneer Printer/Journeyman with gold fever.
The timing is interesting. Ludy arrives in Phoenix around 1879/8 and "drifted" away sometime around 1883. He returns to Phoenix in 1903, then again on the trail of a "bonanza" in May of 1909.

Arizona republican. (Phoenix, Ariz.) 1890-1930, April 13, 1903, Page 6, Image 6 « Chronicling America « Library of Congress

Arizona republican. (Phoenix, Ariz.) 1890-1930, May 24, 1909, Page 6, Image 6 « Chronicling America « Library of Congress

Thanks Hal that is a good start for us. You and several others here are probably already well aware of the various different people (and names) but there are a number of readers that never post, and don't know about this.

To all, please do continue:

 

[sdcfia]

Out of curiosity, has anyone collected information relating to Waltz's political leanings, associations or memberships during the period ca 1848 in Natchez, MS to ca 1860 in El Monte, CA?

 

[hooch]

Is there any actual proof to Jacob Waltz successfulness as a prospector? Like any receipts for turned in ore from the county assayer? Or are they all just hearsay accounts?

 

[Oroblanco]

Is there any actual proof to Jacob Waltz successfulness as a prospector? Like any receipts for turned in ore from the county assayer? Or are they all just hearsay accounts?

If you are really interested amigo, you can look them up; Waltz helped discover (and/or discovered on his own) several good gold mines in the Bradshaws in the years before he moved to Phoenix. (1868) The Big Rebel, Bully Bueno and General Grant if memory serves, were three of them. He sold these claims before filing on a homestead in Phoenix. He had also worked at several gold mines in California, including Grass Valley so had plenty of experience. Here is a photo of the Rebel mine which he located in the Walnut Grove mining district on January 8, 1865


Several books have facsimiles of claim documents, petitions, etc linked to Waltz. All of course if you are actually interested enough to look it up.

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

Can't dispute most of your post but must, respectfully, disagree about Waltz being involved in the Bully Bueno. I did a great deal of research into that short lived mine, and even made a number of trips into it.

Ore from the Bully Bueno:



Take care,


Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

Can't dispute most of your post but must, respectfully, disagree about Waltz being involved in the Bully Bueno. I did a great deal of research into that short lived mine, and even made a number of trips into it.

Ore from the Bully Bueno:



Take care,


Joe

What! Are you challenging my pseudo-photographic-type memory?!!! I could be wrong on the Bully Bueno, can't seem to recall the name of the third one that another researcher found Waltz had been one of the original claimants. Was it a General Lee, perhaps? Oh well I ran out of film for that photographic memory a while ago, but I still like that ore specimen you have! I hope someone can recall the names, so I don't have to go digging for books. Anyway it is a matter of record that Waltz had several claims in the Bradshaws area prior to filing on the homestead.

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

No big deal, just a mine I had looked into.....heavily.

The three mines that Waltz was involved with were, The General Grant, The Gross Lode and The Big Rebel.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

No big deal, just a mine I had looked into.....heavily.

The three mines that Waltz was involved with were, The General Grant, The Gross Lode and The Big Rebel.

Take care,

Joe

The Gross Lode! That was it! Thanks Joe.

 

[hooch]

If you are really interested amigo, you can look them up; Waltz helped discover (and/or discovered on his own) several good gold mines in the Bradshaws in the years before he moved to Phoenix. (1868) The Big Rebel, Bully Bueno and General Grant if memory serves, were three of them. He sold these claims before filing on a homestead in Phoenix. He had also worked at several gold mines in California, including Grass Valley so had plenty of experience. Here is a photo of the Rebel mine which he located in the Walnut Grove mining district on January 8, 1865
View attachment 1257004

Several books have facsimiles of claim documents, petitions, etc linked to Waltz. All of course if you are actually interested enough to look it up.

Noooo, im talking about receipts from ore turned in from him being a "successful prospector," If you are making the claim that he was, I would expect for you to provide the proof of his successfulness.

 

[cactusjumper]

Noooo, im talking about receipts from ore turned in from him being a "successful prospector," If you are making the claim that he was, I would expect for you to provide the proof of his successfulness.

hooch,


"The three mines that Waltz was involved with were, The General Grant, The Gross Lode and The Big Rebel."

There have been a number of people who have looked into the above statement and seen the paperwork involved in proving that Jacob Waltz was a part owner, and that he sold his interest in those mines.

Dr. Glover is one of those researchers and he has gone farther (Germany) than most people who hunt the LDM as a hobby are able to go. He is a personal friend, and I would not question any of the facts that he presents in his books. Statements and "facts" from sources are always fair game to question. One such story that my friend had in his book was about Frank Alkire and his involvement at the time of Waltz's death. I doubted the truth of that story and did extensive research into Mr. Alkire's life in Arizona.

The end result of that research proved that Frank Alkire was not involved or probably even knew Jacob Waltz. The story originated long before any of us were even alive. Despite that, Frank left boxes of documentation, manuscripts and records when he died. I have all that were pertinent to the time of Waltz. In that information there is not a single mention of Jacob Waltz, Julia Thomas or any of the other players surrounding his death.

Most people involved in Dutch Hunting, don't question the facts presented by authors they trust. Knowing the Alkire story came from a known questionable source, made me look into the facts. Most of these facts about Waltz's mines in the Bradshaw Mountains probably reside in the Sharlott Hall Museum. If you haven't been there, I highly recommend you do so. That could probably answers many of the questions you have.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Oroblanco]

Noooo, im talking about receipts from ore turned in from him being a "successful prospector," If you are making the claim that he was, I would expect for you to provide the proof of his successfulness.

You can be a successful prospector and never do any mining. Some prospectors only search for mines, claim them and then sell them to mining companies, which is apparently what Waltz did with those three mines we can document his involvement with.

I would SUGGEST to do your own research if you are really interested, for you would hardly trust what some unknown person posted on an internet forum anyway. As Cactusjumper just posted, also be choosy in what sources you put your trust in, for there have been some real BS artists involved and a lot of BS has gotten mixed in with a basic story of a German immigrant that had a secret gold mine.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hooch, just what is a successful prospector ??

 

[Not Peralta]

Hooch, just what is a successful prospector ??

Amigo, You know,Its someone who can handle their burro juice, that's' real success,NP

 

[Not Peralta]

Amigo'sIf you were the dutchman and were in the bradshaws,why would you not have been at rich hill, this makes no sense, rich hill at the time was the best place to be if you were hunting for gold.np

 

[H-2 CHARLIE]

So the old story of him stealing a cart of High Grade ore and ditching in a ditch from the vulture mine or other is still in the equation ?

 

[hooch]

Hooch, just what is a successful prospector ??

That would be a prospector who successfully turned in gold ore he found and had records in his name with the county assayer, but again there's only rumors and no factual records. And anytime it's brought up no one can back up their claims with facts.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hooch my friend Coffee ? Many a popector has found rich float and had it assayed, only to find that it was from a small hot spot, in other words the property was not worth working. However, he could produce reciepts. While others did find a hot spot. but couldn?t afford a group of assays, but did manage to sell it to a larger company. Which would you consider a good a successful prospecter

Personally I would consider one that keeps eating, a successful prospetor.

Keep questioning my friend, it is an important part of treasure, and lost mine hunting.

 

[Oroblanco]

That would be a prospector who successfully turned in gold ore he found and had records in his name with the county assayer, but again there's only rumors and no factual records. And anytime it's brought up no one can back up their claims with facts.

It sounds like you are only interested in hunting for a lost mine IF it has all kinds of documented proof to back it up. If that is what you like, then the lost Dutchman's mine is probably not for you. There is very little solid evidence, and MUCH BS has been added to the myth so that it is now very hard to separate the wheat from the chaff. I would SUGGEST perhaps looking into some of the old, abandoned mines and perhaps you can find one that is open to claim or purchase for a good price; people might laugh at you for it, but look at what the guys did with the famous 16 to 1 mine in California. That mine was believed, heck everyone KNEW to be "all played out" with NO gold left in it, and a few guys got together and bought it for a song, then went in with metal detectors and have made millions on the gold they found. An old mine, with proven records of production, even if the 'experts' all say it is all played out, might be more to your liking than hunting for a lost mine that few pieces of evidence exist.

To keep demanding for someone to hunt up the proof you wish for the LDM, is not going to get you anywhere. Waltz sold gold for cash on the spot, not generally recorded at all, and allegedly some ore shipped to a smelter in CA which is hotly debated that amounted to a quarter million dollars, but those receipts have long been lost today. The only reference to them I could find were in a letter from Higham in which he mentioned that the Petrasch boys found those receipts, right about the time they were ready to give up the hunt for the mine and this gave them new ambition to keep on. But what did they do with those receipts? No one knows, and don't hope to see Wells Fargo records for ALL of their records for AZ were lost long ago. So it is not that people are refusing to post the proof you want to see Hooch, it is that those records are simply not available period. You might have more fun looking into an old and NOT lost mine than trying to get LDM proof that has been lost for a century.