The Pearl Ship

[pegleglooker]

Hello Ghostdog,
Ok You now have MY attention.... PLEASE tell us some more....

PLL

 

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[Oroblanco]

DITTO to the words of my amigo Pegleglooker!


Oroblanco

 

[pegleglooker]

ORO!!!!!! Man you were pretty quick qith that answer....LOL

PLL

 

[Oroblanco]

Well, like you - he sure got my attention! Remember one version says Iturbe was chased by pirates,which was why he sailed up the Colorado river........
Oroblanco

 

[pegleglooker]

Hey oro,
I agree, but there was a earlier time ( if I remember right ) that he lost his ship to pirates as well.... This was a few years before his trip up the river. I have also found some GREAT info about a ship called the " Explorer " that actually sailed from the gulf up the Colorado river past Yuma. They decided that there just was wayyyyy too much silt in the river to make it a viable business. The Explorer was found in the 30's or 40's in Mexico close to the gulf, and the only thing left was the hull and some " ribs ". I have a pix that will post later. I also found a early 1900's map that " could " show a path from the gulf, to the Colorado, to the New river, to Lake Vulcan and finally to the Salton Sea. It's make one think when you see it.

PLL

 

[ghostdog]

Ok guys, I really dont have much, I tried to post about 11:30 pm last night and got distracted, besides Iturbi,there were 3 other Pearl gathering ships,the Balandra/pilot Atondo{a bigdog},with Father Goni,a Jesuit ,the Capitana/pilot Guzman and pilot Escalante ship name is missing. The pearls were kept in scared royal chests that took 3 keys to open, these chests were the Kings 5ths. The best pearls were called "taladros",the worst "aljofares". They looked for pearls from La Paz down the coast to California. About this time there was a huge drought from Mexico to California. A Dr.Don Martin wrote that the Lake of Texcuco ? had dried up,and one could walk on foot across it. I do not know the date when Iturbi had his encounter with pirate Spillberg.gd

 

[pegleglooker]

Hello Ghostdog,
If I may be so bold as to ask what is your source of this info Has this been recorded in any book or manuscript And who is Dr. Don Martin I have had a stong interest in this story for years and would LOVE to see where this comes from. I know that before the lost ship incident, Iturbe was part of a exploration of Australia. He was looked down upon, because people thought he may have been a spy for the king... Please let us know when and if you can. You are on center stage !!!!!

PLL

 

[ghostdog]

Only have time for a short post, may do more tonight, correction needed ,it is Dr. Don Martin de Solis, lived in same time period as mentioned above, in Mexico,which is where Lake Texcuco ?is located.
Looks like Mexico was on the dole dureing the drought years '2" and Spain provided many thousands of loafs of bread through donations.
I guess much like food stamps today. Could be the first welfare system ever?

 

[Isayhello2u]

Im sure that in some of my previous posts I have written about Dutch admiral (or pirate) Joris Von Spielbergen actions in the gulf in 1615
it was Nicolas Cardona's ship the Capitana San Francisco that was taken. the other two ships in the exploratory fleet at that time were the San Antonio and the San Diego

Iturbi /Iturbide was still in the upper part of the gulf at the time. Joris never sailed again after his historic voyage ended because of legal troubles

Iturbi still may have had troubles with Pirates on his next voyage though.



sources
Geographic and hydrographic descriptions of many northern and southern lands and seas in the Indies, specifically of the discovery of the kingdom of California (1632) / by Nicolas de Cardona ; translated and edited by W. Michael Mathes


Speilbergen, Joris van; Jacob Le Maire; J.A.J. de Villiers
THE EAST AND WEST INDIAN MIRROR, Being an Account of Joris Van Speilbergen's Voyage Round the World (1614-1617), and the Australian Navigations of Jacob Le Maire. Translated, with Notes and an Introduction
London Hakluyt Society 1906

and web surfing info about Acapulco's Fort San Diego

 

[Oroblanco]

Isayhello2u wrote

<snip>Speilbergen, Joris van; Jacob Le Maire; J.A.J. de Villiers
THE EAST AND WEST INDIAN MIRROR, Being an Account of Joris Van Speilbergen's Voyage Round the World (1614-1617),
<snip>

Thank you for this one especially amigo, and yes you have also mentioned Van Speilbergen before - I am always interested in hearing more, like so many of us (like our mutual amigo Pegleglooker) and have never found this particular book even mentioned before. I am always "trolling" for more info on our lost treasure tales as you know, and this one is one of my personal favorites even if it is perhaps the most far-fetched. Thank you again!
your friend in 'Dakota Territory'
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[ghostdog]

Iturbi-ref.-Decent made by the Spainards,Lockman
The Cardona Co.and the Pearl Fisheries of Lower California.-Pacific Historical Review.-Dr,Sanford Mosk
Atondo-Diary of his Pearl Fishing Voyage 1685.

 

[ghostdog]

Woke up had my java, a little more imfo for you Pegleg,

The Atondo diary was already tranlated from the original manuscript in Mexican archives.{Autos de la Ultima Entrada ,A.G.I.,58-4-23 Mexico,56.

Pacific Historical Review,111,p.50-61,Glendale,March,1934

Try finding , H.H. Bancroft,History of the North American States

From what I read the Pearl fishing was not very profitable ,and the Pearls were hard to come by, as the natives consumed the young pearl shells as food. I believe the story of a person findeing baskets of Pearls in the desert on a sand encrusted ship are probably embellisments. I am sure their is more than 1 ship out there buried under sand.
I have no more imfo on Iturbi or his traveling history.

The drought probaly dried up and closed the waterways,which just filled with sand..Its possible when and if Iturbi went inland the water was already somewhat shallow and receding fast,another possiblity is bad luck timeing,their may have been an earthquake which tipped the land towards the ocean and the water drained like a sive..gd

 

[pegleglooker]

Hey gang,
Thankx for alllll the info, you guys have been GREAT!!!! I was also informed that the gulf had the BEST black pearls in the world. maybe this was the " true " reason that pearl fishing continued in the region....Once again thankx for all the references... Looks like I have my work cut out for awhile, trying to find them, buy or download them, read them, and then TRY to really understand them...

Thanx
PLL

 

[Oroblanco]

I must once again say DITTO to the words of our amigo Pegleglooker!
Oroblanco

 

[Isayhello2u]

you should have no trouble with an interlibrary loan thats how i managed to read them.

the one thing that was of use in the east and west mirror was speilbergen's drawing of the ship he captured showing its smaller size and rigging next to his
full sized galleons. this gives a clue as to the size of ships the Spanish were using to explore the gulf circa 1615 a.d.

 

[Isayhello2u]

I was wondering on that Elmer Carver article what newspaper/magazine and Date is that from ?

 

[Isayhello2u]

Re: The Pearl Ship just a tidbit that i had not noticed before

reading the July 1945 desert magazine story about doodlebug prospector (pg 7) came across a mention of the story in conjunction with the digging of brass ship fittings?

 

[gollum]

Ok guys, I really dont have much, I tried to post about 11:30 pm last night and got distracted, besides Iturbi,there were 3 other Pearl gathering ships,the Balandra/pilot Atondo{a bigdog},with Father Goni,a Jesuit ,the Capitana/pilot Guzman and pilot Escalante ship name is missing. The pearls were kept in scared royal chests that took 3 keys to open, these chests were the Kings 5ths. The best pearls were called "taladros",the worst "aljofares". They looked for pearls from La Paz down the coast to California. About this time there was a huge drought from Mexico to California. A Dr.Don Martin wrote that the Lake of Texcuco ? had dried up,and one could walk on foot across it. I do not know the date when Iturbi had his encounter with pirate Spillberg.gd

PLL and Ghost Dog,

Going by the names of the two ships you provided, I remembered a passage from Father Ernest J Burrus SJ's book "Kino and Manje, Explorers of Sonora and Arizona" PP# 22-23:

After conferring with Atondo, Kino retraced his steps to Guadalajara and in early June he visited Rosario near the harbor of Mazatlan. He was soon in the saddle again, this time in order to ride back to Nio for the blessing of three new ships: the Almiranta (a frigate with the high-sounding name of San Jose Y San Francisco Xavier), the Capitana (another frigate named La Concepcion), and the Balandra (a sloop)...............

While there is not an entry in Kino's Diary for the exact date, the ships left Chacala for the trip to the California Peninsula on 17 January 1683. This would place their launching at the end of 1682.

My favorite name of the group is the "San Jose Y SAN FRANCISCO XAVIER" The second part of the name just happens to contain the name of one of the seven founders of the Jesuit Order. Provaocative to say the least.

.....and Father Kino's Diary matches closely with that of Atondo. The pearl fishing was poor and the Indians ate the little pearls along with the oysters.

Ghost Dog: Welfare has been around MUCH longer than that. At the Coliseum, the Romans used to toss loaves of bread to the crowds before the days' activities. Don't forget Jesus, who fed the masses with a loaf of bread and a fish.

Best-Mike

Best-Mike

 

[Curtis]

Love the posts for this Pearl Ship1

I live in Ohio and want to share something that might have an impact on the Pearl Ship hunt. Near Chillicothe Ohio is an old Viking Fort, the Smithsonian guys like to call it Norwegian. It sets up on top of a huge plateau and is around 3 miles in circumference. They had six or seven SMELTERS at the base of it making a crude iron. Why do I mention this? Well not far from the plateau you can see where the water use to be over 100 feet up on the hills where there is nothing but a huge valley now! This is the place where they docked their boats!
I am mentioning it because of previous posts where someone mentions that the Spanish encountered other people using a smelter. These Vikings were everywhere way before the Spanish/French. There is another location similar to the one I just described near Louisville Kentucky. The Indian legends say the Vikings were really mean and ate people! The Indians from several tribes got together and wiped them out. The legends say 5,000 Indians fought 1,100 Vikings. I have a picture of a weapon they used, its conical like a bullet, about 22 inches long and big end is 5 inches in diameter…they used it by fastening it onto the end of saplings and fired it from a huge crossbow. Similar legends abound near the area of the Pearl Ship.
My point is there may have been a time when the water ways were higher than now, at least 100 feet. This would let the explorers into an area like where the Pearl Ship is…then who knows what happened to make things dry up or change.

 

[Isayhello2u]

if you read spanish here is a historical bit from nicolas de cardona
http://www.cervantesvirtual.com/servlet/SirveObras/01383808633682624978802/p0000001.htm