The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?

[Oroblanco]

What is this, paddycake or Tag? You posted about Anza having Peraltas on Sept 11, however I posted it on « Reply #152 on: September 06, 2006, 03:20:55 PM » (LDM hunt is anyone up for it)

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,29161.msg340628.html#msg340628

(extract)
I have always had a problem with the whole Peralta tale(s) as I never found any evidence of anyone with the name Peralta living in the area that is now southern AZ until recently. (A list of the persons enlisted in the DeAnza expedition includes a family of Peraltas, though this is late 1700s not 1847 and the family was in the process of moving to California so...not that good a proof of any Peraltas living in Sonora.)

So now I don't read. I don't arrive at the same conclusions, so I must be arbitrary, in a case that cannot be proven. You prefer to accept Edwards tale, I don't. You prefer Dana's conclusions, I don't. You admit respect for Jim Hatt, but ignore what he says about trying to find a date on inscribed stones. You prefer to accept the tales of lost Peralta gold mines in the Superstitions, I don't. I DO accept that there are two lost mines in that region, but not Mexican. The whole massacre story is not even officially recognized by history, (look for it if you doubt this) and even if they ARE a pack of Mexicans that NO ONE ever missed a man of, it does not mean they were working mines IN the Superstitions, but no matter. Edward's story is a great one, might even make a good movie but...are you willing to take it at face value? Apparently yes!

Who can prove the actual age of the heart stone, or that it must pre-date the arrival of Europeans if it is to be Indian? If it is also a modern fake, why should we be surprised if it is a European symbol? Would you presume that a petroglyph that shows a man on a horse MUST be not be dating to the 1800s because Europeans introduced the horse?

I notice that you just won't answer my question about whether the statements of Mr Hatt about dating those stones affects your view of Dana's conclusions. This is not the first time you have not answered questions, even when repeated. Did you think it was a facetious or purely rhetorical question? I wasn't trying to be "funny", I wanted to know if his statements affects how you view Dana's conclusions, which none of us has actually ever seen first-hand. It seems obvious that Mr Hatt's statements, which are pretty correct about the difficulties of getting a date of inscriptions in stones doesn't change your 'leaning' to a belief that the stones are genuine.

So yep by your reasoning I am being really, really arbitrary about what I will believe and what I will NOT believe. It takes some backing to allow me to believe in a lost treasure or lost mine, let alone a whole BUNCH of lost mines and in this case I just don't see it. Most myths have a basis in fact, however not ALL myths are 100 percent true.

Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

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[Oroblanco]

Hello friends,

I am not the only one with the view that the Peralta legend is unsupported by real evidence. Check out this passage, quote:


Many of the markings associated with the Jesuits, the Peraltas and the Lost Dutchman Mine are suspect. There is no reasonable proof in existence that supports the wanderings of Jesuits in the Superstition Wilderness Area. Furthermore it is difficult to find information to support the existence of a prospecting and mining family named Peralta who worked rich gold mines in the Superstition Wilderness Area. For the most part the Peralta scenario was developed by early and contemporary chroniclers of Superstition Mountain lore.

And more from the same source, quote
The Superstition Wilderness contains thousands of petroglyphs, stone markings and stone writings of which many are from an unknown source. Lets examine one of the best known sites in the Superstition Wilderness. On the south end of Black Top Mountain (Mesa) in the Superstition Wilderenss there are a set of stone writings that suggest they are Spanish in origin. The drawings are of a sunburst and the Spanish word, "ORO". These signs have been the subject of controversy for more than fifty years. Thousands of dollars have been invested in a variety of mining schemes to find gold on this mountain as a direct results of these stone markings.

Barry Storm, an early writer on the subject of the Peralta Mines and the Lost Dutchman Mine, claimed these were Spanish markings (hieroglyphics). He further claimed these Spanish markings indicated gold was buried in the vicinity. Hundreds of prospect holes in the vicinity attest to belief there was Spanish gold buried in the region. Prior to Barry Storm's writings about the Superstitions very few people were aware of the existence of these stone markings on Black Top Mountain. The markings have been examined by many people over the years and most believe the markings to be a hoax. The first published photographs of these markings were taken in the early 1930's. Storm was the first man to interpret these markings as Spanish hieroglyphics. This was definitely a misnomer. The name Spanish Hieroglyphics remained with the site on forest service maps until 1979, when this mis-interpretation was finally removed. Two old-timers, one being William A. Barkley, who predated Storm in the area claimed Storm altered the markings on Black Top. They said Storm added the two "ORO" markings. There are photographs of the sunburst prior to 1937 in which the "ORO" is obviously missing.

end quote

And who was the author of this? Tom Kollenborn, in an article he wrote titled Rock Writing: A Lost Language published 1989. Mike, you said you respect Tom K right? Now this doesn't address the Peralta stones specificallly, but you see the point about having suspicions where anything Peralta is concerned, and rock inscriptions especially - the Peralta stones would qualify as rock inscriptions.

The truth about the Peralta Mine

Blair insists that the Peralta portion of the story is unreliable, writing, "The operation of a gold mine in the Superstitions by a Peralta family is a contrivance of 20th century writers" (Blair, 87). A man named Miguel Peralta and his family did in fact operate a successful mine in the 1860s -- but near Valanciana, California, not Arizona (Blair, 98). The mine was quite profitable, earning about $35,000 in less than one year; Blair describes this as "an unusually good return" for such a small gold mine to earn in such a relatively brief period. (Blair, 108) As of 1975, ruins of the Peralta mine were standing. (Blair, 108)

However, the Peralta Mine eventually became unprofitable and after the money was gone Miguel Peralta eventually turned to fraud. Dr. George M. Willing, Jr. paid Peralta $20,000 to the mining rights for an enormous swath of land -- about 3 million acres (12,000 km²) in southern Arizona and New Mexico -- based on a deed originally granted by the Spanish Empire in the 1700s. (Blair, 110) Trouble came after Willing learned that the deed was entirely bogus. Despite his efforts, Willing was never able to recover the money he gave to Peralta.

Blair argues that this Peralta story (well known to Arizona residents) eventually incorporated the Lost Dutchman story, in a severely distorted version, following the renewed interest in the Lost Dutchman's mine in the 1930s. from Blair, Robert, Tales of the Superstitions: The Origins of the Lost Dutchman Legend Tempe, Az: Arizona Historical Foundation, 1975


I don’t particularly like being Mr Skeptic but we need to keep our pants on when we delve into the whole tale of Peralta lost mines, Peralta massacres and Peralta stone maps – maybe even some boots as well.

Roy ~ Oroblanco

"In ancient times they had no statistics so they had to fall back on lies."--Stephen Leacock.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hmmmmmm ----------------5th --------------------! Gentlemen, present your opinions and facts, but in an impersonal manner.


TropicalTramp

 

[CuMiner]

Oroblanco,

Just to set the record straight, the quotes from Blair are taken by Blair from totally unrelated sources to the facts of the Reavis land fraud.
In other words, Blair was himself quoting misinformation and passing it on in his book.

The actual court records of the Reavis land fraud show and are supported by testimony and documents from that trial, that neither Miguel Peralta nor George Willing had any part, or any knowledge whatsoever of the Arizona land fraud perpetuated by James Reavis and Charles Gitt.

The Peralta's (Antonio and his son Miguel) were working the Valencia mine located 6 miles north of todays Black Canyon City, Arizona in October of 1864. That mine is well recorded in the Peralta name at the Yavapai County, Arizona Recorders records and became a large gold producer.

The Peralta family which had been living at Tubac Arizona in 1775, split, with one branch of the family going with the Anza expedition to California, one branch going east into the New Mexico territory (St. John's Arizona today) and one branch staying at Tubac and the haciendas to the south around Cumpas Sonora. The assumption that every Peralta left Tubac for California with Anza is preposterous.

It isn't that the real story that answers these questions isn't out there, it is just that once someone has read mis information in someones book, and believes it, it is hard to come along later with the facts and have anyone believe the truth.

CuMiner

 

[jeff of pa]

I Guess it is time for me to put a Comment in here

the Title of this thread is


The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?


Not "TNet Members"

Please remember this Throughout your Posts or they may Disappear
because of one Word being the Wrong Word !

HAPPY Posting !

Jeff



and it's not a Discussion of this post or apologies, so please
post on topic.
THANKS !

 

[gollum]

First,

Thanks Jeff. The initial offending party started this on another forum, and pretty much killed the thread.

Oro,

First, my apologies. You are correct. You posted the CaliPeraltas first.

CUMiner pretty much stole some of my thunder. TE Glover even uses some of that version of the Reavis Fraud Scheme, in his book on the LDM.

The Yavapai County Recorder shows in it's first book, the grant from Antonio Miguel Peralta to George Willing is 20 Oct 1864. there is no factual evidence to say how much Willing paid Peralta. One version is $1000, and another is $20,000.

The actual story is that this land was about one square mile in size, and just outside of Tubac, Az. Years later, a man named Dr. Gitt found this land grant while looking through the mining records of Yavapai County and copied down the recorded grant, word for word. He and his partner, James Reavis, used the wording, dates and names on the grant to create their own fraudulent grant of millions of acres of land in Central Arizona. Because Reavis's fraudulent grant, so closely resembled the grants of land that were known to be legal, it was thought to be legitimate and took some 10 years to disprove.

As for Tom Kollenborn,

Like I have said before, I have received emails from people who know him well, and they have said that what Tom may say in public, is not necessarily what he thinks privately.

Also, your evidence only shows ONE spot (atop Black Top Mesa). There are several glyphs in the canyons. Tom K doesn't seem to shoot down the "Peralta Trail Map." This is a mix of AmerIndian glyphs with Mexican trail markers. It was well known that the Spanish added to existing Indian glyphs to disgiuse their own trail markings from others. The Indians also added their glyphs to Spanish marking to confuse them as well.

Also, why would somebody who thinks the LDM a hoax, spend his entire life associating himself with it? Doesn't make much logical sense. I have said it before, and I'll say it again, "ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS!" Don't necessarily listen to what someone says, watch what they do!

What happened to your Pima Skeleton assertion? Also, if you read the original posting closely, it doesn't appear that the Lieutenant ever even saw the skeletons. The story says that the Lt. sent Sgt Edwards and Trooper Green to water some horses up at First Water. And even if the Lt did see them, I have served with many Lieutenants, and what most of them had in experience could fit in a thimble. Do you know how many years it took to make Sergeant in the Cavalry back then? For most, it was a LOOOOOONG time.

A little testy are we? I just caught the initial post. I have no problem answering your question. It doesn't affect how I feel about the stones at all. Jim firmly believes the stones to be authentic. He is just stating how difficult it can be to accurately date them. Not a BIG problem.

Your logic escapes me, as to how you CAN take the word of a Green Trooper, and a Lieutenant (who most likely never saw the skeletons), over the word of a seasoned Sergeant who went back to the scene, and found many things that moved the dial towards the skeletons belonging to Mexican Miners, and not Pimas.

How you can use ONE example of an Indian with a gold tooth, to come to the conclusion that a skull of one of the skeletons was Indian, against how many Mexicans and Anglos who had gold teeth.

How you can couple that with the finding of a fully clothed skeleton in Western style clothes, and think that it is more probable that it was a Hispanic or Anglo travelling with Indians rather than a group of Hispanics.

How you can easily discount the findings of a disinterested party (Dana) who had possession of the Stone Maps, and the time to do any testing he needed to put his reputation on the line (as head of the Geology Dept at UC Redlands), giving a signed affidavit first to Mitchell, and later to the FBI, in favor of three Experts who did a cursory examination of them at the museum, with no special equipment.

How you can dismiss those findings that were used as evidence in a court of law.

Individually, maybe I would also not take them too seriously, but put them all together, and it makes for a pretty good circumstantial case.

AND YOU KEEP SAYING "PERALTA STONE MAPS!" I have never seen anything that directly associated the Peraltas, in any way, with those stone maps. In the past, I have also used that name, but since I started researching them, I have come to call them "The Stone Maps" like most others.

Best,

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Hello friends,

Mike, no wasn't being "testy" if I do get to that point you won't mistake it. I was repeating the question because I got the impression you were deliberately ignoring it.

Yes I read Hatt's article on the stones and his conclusion they are real; however one factor to consider in whether they are genuine or modern IS the age, and the age of inscriptions in stone is tough. Even the experts make mistakes!

You accept a third hand or second hand report of the "tests" which we do not have the results of, over first hand statements of people who have examined the stones in hand. Do you just assume that Desert Archaeology folks were mistaken, about every point?

What happened to my Pima skeleton scenario? I still think that is what the case was - and not a group of Mexicans nor Anglos. Why? For no other reason than no such group was reported missing any time in the period when it should have been. A group of missing Indians is not likely to be reported in our history books or records. There IS a missing group of Spaniards that escaped the history books, but it was in the early 1500s and even they left one stone inscription in NM on their way to the Twilight Zone. If you could find a letter or a diary from the "sole survivor" Peralta that dated to the correct period, and I don't mean twenty years after the fact, or church records of a group of missing Mexicans of at least twenty in number it would go a LONG way to help prove the Peraltas were there. I never found any such records.

Also, your evidence only shows ONE spot (atop Black Top Mesa).

Not what they said - remember:

It is tragic that men have altered the many petroglyphs of the Superstition Mountains, or at least certain ones. Many of the markings associated with the Jesuits, the Peraltas and the Lost Dutchman Mine are suspect.

You are sure free to consider Tom K's personal view of the "Stone Maps" (hey I never named them Peralta stones, that is common use as I have seen it but if you prefer this....) is different from what he has said publicly, though it rather looks like some slant creeping in. So one 'expert' doesn't think they are real, while another one does - does that make or break them? Of course not! I guess I ought to include the rest of Tom K's article as it pertains to rock markings in the Superstitions:

The infamous "Master Map" in La Barge Canyon near Charlebois Spring has been used in many treasure tales about the region by chroniclers since the early 1930's. The markings have been altered on several occasions by ambitious promoters trying to convey their own ideas to an unsuspecting public. In reality these petroglyphs were placed here by ancient inhabitants of the area many centuries ago and altered by contemporary man. A very similar "Master Map" petroglyph can be found on the desert south of Superstition Mountain. It is believed by some amateur pictoglyph readers these two petroglyphs are representations of stellar constellations. Archaeologist believe the markings in La Barge are in celebration of a successful hunt by the ancient people who lived in this semi-arid desert environment several centuries ago.

The rock writings of the Superstition Wilderness will continue to conjure up tales of lost gold and buried treasure regardless of what scholars claim or try to prove. Treasure aficionados will continue to believe these markings area a part of a great network of treasure trails leading to tons of buried gold or hidden gold mines. Lets hope the future will produce scholars that will study the historical significance of stone writings and solve the linguistic key that might reveal even another written record about the ancient Southwest.


How can I use an example of an Indian with a gold tooth? Just how much RECORDED cases do you expect are going to be PROVE-able?? Yeesh. How many cases of Mexicans with gold teeth can you PROVE? It is NOT safe to assume that a set of remains is either Mexican OR Indian based on the finding of dental work, period! Even another point in the Edwards tale is odd - the gold ore being in rawhide. You know what rawhide does in the desert if it sits for twenty years? Through year after year of monsoon, then dry, repeat repeat. Mexicans often used leather bags and pokes, not often rawhide, however Indios did. Also that bit on the mining tools - were the mining tools all over, with all of the remains or only the one? The fact that I COULD find one case of an Indian with gold teeth that quickly should tell you that it is not SO rare or extraordinary.

the finding of a fully clothed skeleton in Western style clothes

Yeah that is a lock-down absolute undeniable proof that it MUST have been Mexicans or Europeans of some kind and definitely NOT Indians right?

Like the clothes on this fellow here? He was a rather famous Apache warrior, Geronimo. If I saw a group of remains and many appeared to be Indian, and one had what appeared to be western clothes, and we are in Arizona where many of the tribes wore clothing very much the way "westerners" did, I would conclude that the group was all Indians, gold tooth or no.

How you can dismiss those findings that were used as evidence in a court of law.


Now that is quite a statement - can you prove that the "findings" on these Stone Maps were in fact used as evidence in a court of law? You also know that evidence in courts is frequently debated by the experts too - did the judge rule that the stones were genuine? Or did they just NOT use them as evidence AGAINST MOEL?

Mike you place a lot of reliance on the Edwards tale. Edwards found a worn iron pry bar and a wedge, and presumed the group was "miners" based on that - no gold pans, no picks and shovels, just a pry bar and wedge and that NOT with the remains but near by. This is supposed to have happened in 1866 and another source says that the remains were thought to have been there a year! That doesn't fit well with the 1847-48 period. I presumed it must have been nearly twenty years, so if only ONE year then yes rawhide (untanned cowhide pouch) would remain intact, relatively unless mice or rats gnawed it. Then there are some mis-assumptions here as well.

First, Edwards and his lieutenant were NOT cavalry and NOT regular army but were in the 1st Arizona Volunteer INFANTRY, Co F - which means several things. For one, it was not a case of "looking down from horseback" but on foot; second that Edwards rank of sergeant is NOT the result of many years experience, as this unit had only been raised AFTER 1864 and all ranks were relatively recent. So Trooper Green likely had just as much "experience" as Edwards. Then too, I found that the commander might be a Pima chief himself! The records on the Arizona Volunteer Infantry are scant, but here is an extract:

Antonio Azul, a Pima Chief, was their first lieutenant, and W. A. Hancock, who afterwards located in the Salt River Valley and became identified with the early settlement of that portion of the Territory, was made second lieutenant.

So which lieutenant was the one present? If it was Hancock, then he might make a mistake in identifying skeletal remains - if it was Azul, it seems more likely he would be able to identify Pima remains since he WAS a Pima. Now I found yet another lieutenant assigned to Co F - Lieutenant Hutton, who was very active on many patrols starting 1866, and that he had risen from the rank of 1st sergeant that year to the command of the company. It seems likely this lieutenant Hutton would have been the officer referred to. Having served in the military yourself as enlisted and not as commissioned officer Mike, you may have a slight bias to trust in a fellow sergeant rather than an officer as you have stated - however there have been capable officers in our military services, and this Hutton rose from the enlisted ranks so must have had satisfactory service to be promoted to commissioned officer. The fact that he was an officer and went on numerous scouts, should allow us NOT to simply dismiss his view based on the fact that he was an officer.

Oroblanco

 

[CuMiner]

Oroblanco,

The Lieutenant in the Edwards account was Oscar Hutton. A little history on Hutton shows he was an experienced tracker and indian fighter, during his life he was said to have killed more indians than any other anglo in Arizona. He had a long history as an explorer, mountain man and outdoorsman. The only man probably more qualified than Hutton in that unit to be a scout and indian fighter was Joe Green. Green's history as chronicled by Sen. Carl Hayden in his Arizona pioneer's biographies paints a picture of the ultimate outdoorsman and indian fighter. Green signed onto the Army at the request of Governor McCormick and King Woolsey. McCormick wanted Woolsey but Woolsey couldn't come when needed so told McCormick to find Joe Green as he was a better indian tracker and fighter than he was. (quite an endorsement).

Don't be fooled into reading the word "infantry" and thinking foot soldier, or cavalry and thinking horse. Infantry and cavalry describe how the soldier is trained to fight, NOT how he necessarily gets to that fight. Infantry, in all wars, utilize whatever means at their disposal to transport themselves to an engagement. Trucks, trains, busses, airplanes, helicopters, gliders, wagons, horses and on foot. Once at the battle site, the infantry and cavalry then utilize their specialized training to fight the enemy. There are numerous accounts during the 1860-1880 time period in Arizona of infantry fighting as mounted infantry and cavaly fighting as dismounted cavalry.

The 1st. Arizona volunteers had few government resources and marched most of the time but utilized horses and wagons whenever and wherever possible. Their scouts were always mounted. It would have been useless to try and chase and engage mounted Apache while traveling afoot. Huttons diary is filled with numerous references of "a hard ride" to cut off Apache and hold them until the rest of the company could arrive before the Apache could slip away into their strongholds.

The reason Hutton, Green and Edwards (oficially) stated the dead were (probably) Pima. They didn't want to have to stop and bury anglo or Mexican dead while the Apache were slipping away on them. Hutton could have left Pima lay where they found them, but if they were anglo he would have had to investigate and bury the remains which may have meant precious lost time or splitting his command.

CuMiner

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

SIGH, Sniff, I presume that I will now have to turn my attention to these cottin pickin stones to calm things down.

You all are invited to witness the grand opening of the mines of The supersitions in name only of coarse since it is now -----XXX/

However, remember that I live in the backwaters of Mexico and sooooooo----------manana, or possibly manana, unless Tayopa Bill wishes to speed things up.

Tropical Tramp

p.s. appol Bill just funning at you.

 

[gollum]

Thanks CUMiner,

Just because I was Airborne, didn't mean I jumped in everywhere I went. I marched in some places, road boats in, fast roped from helos, swam in, and yes, jumped in.

Also Roy,

In that picture, Geronimo is sitting on a park bench. That says that the picture was taken sometime after he had been captured. Please show him in Western Style Clothes when he is younger (still fighting). You can't go by any pics taken after his capture. Even the ones where he is dressed in Indian garb are mostly contrived for souvenirs. Every photographer dressed him differently based on the image he wanted to show. As yours (dressed Western), it would seem to show Anglos that the mighty Geronimo has been Westernized, and there is nothing to fear. Or my first pic here, with Geronimo posing with a rifle, in Indian gear. Showing the Mighty Warrior Geronimo to be feared.

Usually, when Indians captured ANYTHING Western, they dressed them up with Indian art (sometimes more, sometimes less). My second pic shows Geronimo wearing a captured Cavalry/Army style jacket, but it is adorned with Indian things (Geronimo is on the right).

Best,

Mike

 

[gollum]

Welcome Don,

This is for Mrs. Oro, and Oro,

I was just in contact with the Archive Secretary at Redlands University. She told me that Professor Stephen Dana was in the Geological Sciences Dept from 1945 until he retired in 1986. She related that he was the dominant faculty member for the greatest majority of his tenure.

Professor Dana died shortly after retiring in 1986. She will ask two retired Geology Faculty Members who worked with him, and see if they know anything.

She said that when Professor Dana retired, he took all his papers with him. That is most likely where the test results lie! Professor Dana had several daughters, who were all Redlands University Alumni. She has contacted the Alumni Office, and gotten the address of one of the daughters. If the daughter desires contact, she will give her my contact information.

HOW CLOSE ARE WE NOW?

Hopefully, we will soon know what tests were performed, what equipment was used, and what specifically led Professor Dana to come to the conclusion that the stones were at least a hundred years old.

Best,

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Hello friends,

Mike are you just missing the point, that a set of remains may not be identifiable by their clothing? If they were miners in that massacre, why no gold pans, picks, shovels? The photo of Geronimo after his surrender doesn't change the point - for he was a hostile Apache, lived in the wild, compared to most of the Pimas who were pretty much 'civilized' and would have dressed more like the 'white men' and remember it was Pimas that two of the men believed the massacre victims were. Besides, do you KNOW the actual date of that photograph? I don't, but did notice that his hair did not look too grey and he did not have his spectacles (glasses) that he wore in his later photos. The point was that Indians of the southwest did not dress SO differently from 'westerners', especially a tribe like the Pimas. Some of the remains were stripped - so what do we assume about them? By the way, yes I am well aware of the tale of Oscar Hutton, he was actually captured and lived with the Apaches for some time. He even testified in the Camp Grant massacre, his expertise was well known.

There is another point that may indicate an Indian rather than a 'westerner' - for Edwards said he found a knife on the body when he turned it over. Now the finding of a knife doesn't mean anything in particular, but if the knife was concealed on the person of the dead victim, that is a common habit of Amerindians of the 19th century. Of course Mexicans carried knives too. Now if Edwards had found Mexican coins on the remains, that would be a stronger indicator of a probable Mexican identity rather than Indio, however again with the 'civilized' tribes the use of coins was accepted to some degree.

Not to support the whole Peralta legend, but even if the massacre victims WERE partly or mostly Pimas, they may have been Pimas working FOR the Peraltas. Suppose that one set of remains that had a 'poke' of gold ore WAS a Peralta, while the 'lucky' one escaped, and their hired Pima workers died to a man? Would that not also fit with the scenario, or does it HAVE to be a party of all Mexicans? Is there some source that states that all the men hired by Peraltas were Mexicans and none were Indios? Also, I really wonder now exactly when this massacre happened. Why would one source say they had been there "about a year" (in 1866) while another says twenty? Is the date of the Peralta massacre in 1865?

You must know too how controversial even scientific testing can be, among the experts - look at the on-going fight over the Shroud of Turin and the Carbon-14 tests which came up with a medieval date. I lean to accept what Father Polzer and the Desert Archaeology Inc folks said - they actually did examine The Stones in hand so when they said they could see dimples where the electric drill was used, I have to take note of that. Dimples can be made by other tools, in soft materials but in rock a fast rotating bit (as in powered by electric or air) is more likely to result in the dimple than a hand tool. I have used a hand rock drill enough times to know that a hand tool can make a round hole, but you don't often get a "dimple" with a hand tool, be it chisel or star drill.

I understand that (for a fee) we the public are allowed to examine the genuine Stones. Anyone here bothered enough about these Stones to go pay the fee and bring along a magnifying glass?

HOW CLOSE ARE WE NOW?


I would say that we are definitely following the pattern among treasure hunters as they investigate The Stones, we are dividing up into two camps - the believers and the skeptics. I don't know that we are any closer to being able to prove The Stones are either genuine OR frauds. I still see great similarities to what happens with the Beale Codes - the skeptic just can't believe it, the believer feels he/she is one or two steps away from solving the danged things. I don't think that a believer is bothered by the fact that known frauds have been perpetrated like the Peralta land scam or Storm making fake Spanish inscriptions, altering ancient Amerindian petroglyphs. Then we have the Phoenix Dons, whose hand may be at work here too. A believer is not going to be bothered by any conclusions of the experts that are negative, nor the fact that the inscriptions are quite different from any known, genuine inscriptions. Once you accept they are real, all of these can be dismissed. Likewise for the skeptic - if one expert says they are genuine, it is easy to assume the expert could have been fooled. It would be much easier (in my opinion) if ALL of the experts concluded the same thing, either way - but as with so many artifacts the experts are divided. It would be easier too if there were SOME other types of artifacts recovered with The Stones which would help in dating the inscriptions but unfortunately zilch.

I have yet more questions too - for one, why should we assume The Stones lead to either buried treasures OR lost mines? Is it not possible they may point to something else, something which may not have great value (in dollars) but some "holy" relic for instance? The religious markings may be an indicator of this. Also notice there is no "oro" or "mina" or "tesoro" on them, while there are crosses - graves perhaps?

My problem is that even if The Stones are PROVEN to be genuine, I don't 'believe' in them enough to try using them as maps. There are plenty of people who believe the Peralta legends are all true, but like The Stones it takes some faith on the part of the believer. The Superstition mountains are not a real promising place to prospect for gold, which makes it that much more difficult for me to accept the story of eight to eighteen (Storm's number) secret lost and incredibly rich gold mines there.

Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

PS Don welcome to Treasurenet! Don't worry about having "informed" questions to post - we all start off on any of these treasures not knowing much beyond the basics. I didn't know much about these Peralta stones (oops should have said "The Stones" as we really don't know they are definitely attributed to the Peraltas) when we started in on this. When I first heard of them years ago and saw photos in a magazine I pretty well decided they were not worth investigating and forgot about them until recently. It is possible to build a case to say they are genuine, and possible to construct a case that they are frauds - even the experts are divided on them.

Roy A. Decker ~ Oroblanco on T-net and many other sites online

 

[gollum]

Hey Mike,

We are walking along the same lines Did they tell you that Mr.Chance was a student?

No, but I already knew that based on his funding the Chance/Dana Scholarship, and the description of Dana being his Undergraduate Professor.

Oro,

You are right. Some of the party may have been from one of a few possible tribes.

I stand by my statement, that MOST Indians, when they "obtained" western style clothes or equipment, adorned it with Indian doodads, trinkets, etc, and would have been easily identifiable.

Also, you seem to be ignoring Ben Edwards Apache Great Uncle (who lived on the San Carlos Reservation), who told him the story of the massacre (I won't repost it). It named the Apache Chiefs who were involved, and specifically said the attack was against Mexicans, not Indians. also, that this great uncle was one of the young Apache involved.

I didn't mention the knife, as just the mention of a knife meant absolutely nothing. It would be safe to say that MOST every person who went into the wilds carried a sheath knife. If it were an Indian who owned that knife, there is a very good chance that it would have been decorated (or the sheath) with beads, fringe, tacks, etc, and again, would have been easily identifiable as Indian.

Initially, you made a big deal about the fact that it wasn't really a massacre, because every soul wasn't killed. I meant to say this a long time ago, but one of the most famous "massacres" in American history involved a couple of hundred people, with only five being killed. The Boston Massacre. I think in both cases, the word massacre was used for literary and inflammatory purposes, rather than accuracy.

As I have said, my position is, based on what I know right now, I believe the stone maps to be authentic. One thing I am prepared to hear from Professor Dana's Daughter, is that he never did any tests on the stones. That is a distinct possibility. If that is the case, my opinion of the authenticity of the stones will change drastically. See, what you say about me is untrue. If I find legitimate evidence that says the stones are frauds, I won't mind letting everybody know. I have no personal stake in them. All my arguments are based on the information I have to date. If, at a later date, I get information that leads me in a different direction, I will follow.

No, I don't know the date of that photograph, but unless I am mistaken, the Apache rode horses into battle. I don't recall ever hearing about them riding trolleys on raids! Picture Chief Geronimo, with his trusty Bow and Arrows. Sitting on a bench waiting for the trolley to take him to the battle!

Sitting on a bench, with bow and arrows, is a posed photograph. Just like the first one I posted, with him posed with a rifle, in Indian Garb.

The non-posed one (on horseback), shows him wearing the Military Jacket with Indian adornment.

Best,

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Hello Mike and everyone,

Initially, you made a big deal about the fact that it wasn't really a massacre, because every soul wasn't killed.

Huh? Where did I say that? I did not say that. If you can find such a statement posted by me, please refresh my memory because I don't remember making any deal about calling it a massacre because one person survived. Heck the Wyoming massacre had hundreds and hundreds of survivors, but they still called it a "massacre" even though it was really a battle.

So you are certain that the clothing would be instantly and easily identifiable as Indian at a glance? What does that say to you about the two men who said the remains were Pimas? What about Geronimo and his posed photo - why are you making a huge issue out of that, because I could find an example of southwestern Indians wearing 'western' type clothes?

I did not say that you personally are a 'believer' - I was under the impression that you were still only leaning toward a belief they were genuine. You and I have one thing in common concerning these stones, I don't have any personal stake in them either. They are interesting, I will grant that!

Yes I have been 'ignoring' the tale retold by Edwards - it is interesting and a good tale, but....that is about as far as I would care to invest faith in it, personally. There are lots of old tales, retold to grandkids that are pretty difficult to substantiate and I don't know how we can substantiate this tale from Edwards. Did grandpa Apache have a Mexican rifle we can see photos of, perhaps with a Peralta name inscribed on it, for instance? Perhaps if we had a report, documented, of a large party of Mexicans, missing in that area in the correct time period, we could then cross-reference it with the re-told tale but no - we don't have any such report of any missing party that 'fits'.

If you collect all of the Peralta tales and legends, then try to find something to substantiate it in the records of the time when they are supposed to have been in the Superstitions and you will see what I mean. The fact that the Peralta presence in California is well documented and the Peraltas who were mining in AZ in the Bradshaws just won't prove they were in the Superstitions. The later part of Mexican control of Arizona was a period of contraction and withdrawal, not one of expansion and explorations - of course the whole Peralta legend COULD be true, however it is not proven.

Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

Hello Mike and everyone,

Initially, you made a big deal about the fact that it wasn't really a massacre, because every soul wasn't killed.

Huh? Where did I say that? I did not say that. If you can find such a statement posted by me, please refresh my memory because I don't remember making any deal about calling it a massacre because one person survived. Heck the Wyoming massacre had hundreds and hundreds of survivors, but they still called it a "massacre" even though it was really a battle.

So you are certain that the clothing would be instantly and easily identifiable as Indian at a glance? What does that say to you about the two men who said the remains were Pimas? What about Geronimo and his posed photo - why are you making a huge issue out of that, because I could find an example of southwestern Indians wearing 'western' type clothes?

I did not say that you personally are a 'believer' - I was under the impression that you were still only leaning toward a belief they were genuine. You and I have one thing in common concerning these stones, I don't have any personal stake in them either. They are interesting, I will grant that!

Yes I have been 'ignoring' the tale retold by Edwards - it is interesting and a good tale, but....that is about as far as I would care to invest faith in it, personally. There are lots of old tales, retold to grandkids that are pretty difficult to substantiate and I don't know how we can substantiate this tale from Edwards. Did grandpa Apache have a Mexican rifle we can see photos of, perhaps with a Peralta name inscribed on it, for instance? Perhaps if we had a report, documented, of a large party of Mexicans, missing in that area in the correct time period, we could then cross-reference it with the re-told tale but no - we don't have any such report of any missing party that 'fits'.

If you collect all of the Peralta tales and legends, then try to find something to substantiate it in the records of the time when they are supposed to have been in the Superstitions and you will see what I mean. The fact that the Peralta presence in California is well documented and the Peraltas who were mining in AZ in the Bradshaws just won't prove they were in the Superstitions. The later part of Mexican control of Arizona was a period of contraction and withdrawal, not one of expansion and explorations - of course the whole Peralta legend COULD be true, however it is not proven.

Oroblanco

I said mostly they were decorated with Indian doodads, and if they were, they would be instantly identifiable. Show me a picture of Geronimo BC (before capture) that shows him in western clothes without Indian adornment. There are a few pics of him then, and in most of them, he is wearing that military jacket with adornment. If you don't think that picture of him sitting on the bench with a bow and arrow is posed........

The reason I am making an issue of that, is because you used an example that was contrived by the photographer for whatever his reasons were. Same reason I made a deal about the skull with a gold tooth, there is one recorded example of an Indian with one, and you said it was more probable that the skull belonged to an Indian (mot counting the more vast number of anglos and hispanics that had them). The same reason that you said was more probable that it was either a hispanic or white travelling with Indians, when a skeleton wearing western clothes was described, when there were 25 skeletons, and the ONY evidence to show whether they were hispanic or Indian, all pointed to hispanic. Look at it like this:

25 skeletons. Most stripped clean. No way to tell what they were. The ONLY evidence to make an inference from: One skull with a gold tooth, one skeleton fully clothed in western style clothes, mining implements. How do you arrive at Indian?

As CUMiner stated, it is very likely that the Lt came to the Pima conclusion because if they had been Hispanic or Anglo skeletons, he would have been responsible for burying them. If they were Indian, he could leave them where they lay. Burying 25 skeletons is a lot of work, especially when you are chasing after an Apache Raiding Party. And as the story is told, it is very likely that the Lieutenant never saw the skeletons, because Green and Edwards were sent to water the horses. Said that when they returnbed, they reported the find to him. I will give CUMiner the benefit of the doubt that Green was an experienced guy.

We have two stories of a massacre of Mexicans; one, a Peralta Family History, the other, the story told by a member of the war party told to his grand nephew. There is no story (that I have heard or read of about a large band of Pima Miners that was massacred. There would have been such a story, unless the whole tribe (village) was wiped out.

Best,

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Gollum wrote:
If you don't think that picture of him sitting on the bench with a bow and arrow is posed........

I don't know how you are reading or mis-reading my posts - didn't I just say it (the photo of Geronimo) was posed, as in (quoting myself here)

What about Geronimo and his posed photo - (from a previous post in this thread)

Do you suppose that the photographer ordered Geronimo into the clothes? I can picture that now, Hey, Geronimo, put these pants on and get rid of that Indian getup....yeah....er no! Hold the bow and arrow, yes, change into these 'white man clothes' for a photo? Not likely. I saw some photos of Geronimo in Willcox (local museum) that were very different from any I ever saw before, including him in an automobile and working as a cowhand! You must also know that the photos that can be dated to the 1840s of Pimas or Apaches would be rare to say the least!

That is a couple of photos of Pima Indians, (women) but I don't know the date - it is extremely unlikely the photos date to the 1840s. Here is Joseph Head (Pima) in 1907:

Since you do not believe me that the 'dress' habits of Pimas was not so different from that of Mexicans, it seems pointless to continue arguing this - you are certain that the remains WOULD have been instantly identifiable as Indian and that Edwards has it right while he compatriots were all wrong.

You are certain that the tale from Edwards is "proven" because we have the "Peralta massacre" tale - don't suspect even a little bit that the Peralta massacre tale might have been a result of Edwards tale? Ever read some of the Indian accounts of the Custer battle? One tale even told of seeing the Sun shining on the sabres of the cavalry, even though none were carried on that day.

I do not accept that the massacre was in fact a group of Mexicans, including Peraltas. It cannot be substantiated based on a couple of legends, tales-told. If it WAS a group of Mexicans, why did not Green and Hutton instantly know it? After all, there was that one in 'western' clothing right? There remains an element of doubt - as with everything related to Peraltas in the Superstitions. Here is a rhetorical question for you (meaning you the reader, not just one particular person) If the massacre victims in Massacre Field were a group of Mexicans, why has not one Mexican coin ever been found there? Does that point prove the victims were NOT Mexicans? No - just more questions with no answers. The reason I mention this point is that in another incident in which a group of Mexican men, (armed) were massacred, (Skeleton Canyon AZ) quite a number of Mexican coins were later found along with bullets etc. Of course this was also a 'treasure tale' but the finds of single coins here and there is in keeping with the death of a number of Mexicans. Did the Peraltas have not a single coin among the whole group? What were they paying the hired men, a cut of the proceeds?

So - what if the group IS Mexicans? That does not prove they were Peraltas. What if the group WAS Peraltas? That does not prove that they were MINING in the Superstitions! In fact, there is reason to believe that Mexican mining activity was taking place in the Goldfield district, as reported by the people who made discoveries there. If the group was Mexicans and was Peraltas, they very well could have been simply passing through though that has not stopped some fellows from digging like mad in Massacre Field, expecting that the gold ledge(s) would be under the very spot where the remains were found.

Happened to catch the "Naked Archaeologist" tonight, two specials on forged antiquities and inscriptions, in particular the James ossuary. The funny thing was the relic passed every test except an ion test, and even there the part of the inscription they expected to be forged passed, the part they expected to be genuine FAILED. They had an expert (from the Royal Ontario museum) who had an argument that bears on this subject too - he said that if an inscription is odd, wierd, totally different from all known versions, then he suspects that it is genuine because it is odd and wierd, as any forger can access the books to make up fakes that copy known examples! So by that reasoning, The Stones or Peralta Stones which ever name the reader prefers, may well be genuine - because they ARE unlike all known examples!

I don't know, I am getting curious enough about these danged stones to be considering taking the trip and paying to take a close up look at them personally. I wonder if it would be possible to get the stones tested today using some of the newest techniques?

mining implements

Hmm, "mining implements" meaning ONE crowbar and ONE wedge, which are tools that are not used ONLY for mining, yet not one gold pan, pick, shovel, star drill, cold chisel? Is that enough evidence to prove that twenty five men were mining? By one version, the Peralta mining expedition included women and children as well as sheep, cattle etc. Pretty strange if you think about it.

As CUMiner stated, it is very likely that the Lt came to the Pima conclusion because if they had been Hispanic or Anglo skeletons, he would have been responsible for burying them.

That is making a presumption of either laziness, cold-blooded heart or burning desire to 'get' the Apaches on the part of Lt. Hutton. Why should we make that presumption? Do we know of an instance where Hutton deliberately left human remains to rot that were NOT the enemy? Besides, the remains were skeletal, there would have been no 'urgent' need to bury them, as he was on a scout mission he could have simply taken note and sent in a burial detail later - this has happened in other instances during the Indian wars including when they KNEW the remains were of US cavalry troopers, like the Custer battle mentioned above. No, that line of reasoning, that Hutton would have said they were Indians in order NOT to have to 'bury' them does not stand comparison to many other historical incidents.

So do you find the whole Peralta legend and the stones believable enough to want to make an expedition based on it? I don't find it substantiated enough to warrant a field trip, not yet anyway.

Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

Actually, that is probably just about what happened with that Geronimo Picture. The photographer wanted to present an image of the tamed savage. Just like when they dressed the four Choctaws in tuxedos, and posed them with President Lincoln.

As far as Hutton and Green not being able to instantly recognize the remains as Mexican, that's easy! The remains were completely skeletonized and stripped. The only exceptions were the skull with a gold tooth, and the one that got away, and died under a bush fully clothed (Green and Hutton never saw the gold tooth or the fully clothed skeleton).

I have never seen a version of the story that included women, children, and sheep and cattle. I could see leading a few cattle along. Just enough for beef for the length of time they needed. Plenty to graze on there.

Can you say conclusively that NO Mexican coins have EVER been found there? Even if that is true, it was common practice to either not bring money into the mountains (extra weight and not necessary to mine), or cache it before heading in. If the mines they were working were secret (which they obviously were if you believe the Peralta part), what use would it be to bring along money? They wouldn't have stopped by any towns. They didn't want to be seen, or their presence known. They would have packed in all their supplies, and killed what they didn't bring to eat. Very simple, move in, do the mining, move out, back home (only they didn't make it back home).

Hutton ands his men were not on a scouting mission. They were chasing down an Apache Raiding Party.

Best,

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings,

Gollum wrote:
I have never seen a version of the story that included women, children, and sheep and cattle.

Read the Brownie Holmes version of the Dutchman tale. Here is an extract:

...his party would consist of peon laborers, soldiers as escorts, their women and children and many animals including cattle and sheep. (from The True Story of the Lost Dutchman of the Superstitions as told to my father Dick Holmes by Jacob Wolz on his Death Bed by Brownie Holmes)

Can I say ABSOLUTELY no Mexican coins have ever been found in Massacre Field? No, but there are none reported. There are reported Mexican coins found in Skeleton Canyon massacre. In archaeology artifacts, legends are compared to others to try to help sort out what is true and what is not - so we have an apparent difference between the Skeleton Canyon massacre and the Massacre Field massacre in that no Mexican coins are reported found there. That by itself does not PROVE the victims could not have been Mexican, however it does not SUPPORT the idea that they were - in fact that reinforces the idea that the group was likely Amerindians, though they did use coins it would not be surprising if a group had none among them.

The case has some resemblance to a phenomenon in science/research that I don't know the name of. The phenomenon is that when a person is trying to prove a theory, he/she searches for all evidence that will fit/support that theory. This tendency can color the result of the research. Let me give a totally un-related example. A woman is missing, and was last seen in a restaurant talking with a man who smoked. (The man could be a relative, could be totally un-related to the missing person case) Her car is found at an abandoned parking lot, and cigarette butts are found elsewhere on the lot - the theorist then assumes that the cigarette butts must be from the abductor, as the missing woman was last seen with a man who smoked; then the brand of cigarette butts is identified, so the leading suspect now has to be someone who smokes that brand. (There is no proof that the woman was IN her car when it ended up where it was found, nor that it was not simply stolen by someone unrelated to the missing person case.) This type of 'sorting' of evidence can lead to dead ends - I have done it myself! We have a group of human remains found in the Superstitions, one had 'western' style clothes - so it must therefore be the Peraltas! It can very well be a case of a totally un-related incident! The finding of the two 'mining tools' is not all that strong a case, we don't even know if the tools belonged to the massacre victims! Yes this all can fit with the Peralta legend, but by no means is absolute proof that could not be any other explanation.

To accept the identity of the massacre victims as anything is difficult, and I don't dismiss Edwards tale absolutely, however it is not the only possible answer and two others did not agree with his conclusions. Doesn't it strike you the least bit odd that only two tools, which are used by miners were found? By the Holmes version there were even soldiers assigned to protect the expedition, which is very odd since the date seems to place it right in the middle of the Mexican-American war and the frontier Mexican forces were stretched very thin; plus there is no record of any missing Mexican forces assigned to protect any mining mission.

Then there is the three-day running fight. If this part is to be accepted, either the Mexicans were not really 'running' or the fight began some distance away from where the massacre occurred - which would support the idea that any mines the group had been working were also quite some distance from the Superstitions!

They wouldn't have stopped by any towns

This is an assumption we must make in order to accept the tale as valid. Can you find any other similar story, which is proven to be true, in which a Mexican mining party deliberately avoided towns along the route to where they were mining? This oddity in the tale makes it suspect in my opinion. Why avoid the towns, to keep the mission secret? A group of twenty five men (or including women and children as well?) is not exactly a size group that is likely to keep ANYTHING secret very long. Why haul all the extra baggage (as in food) all the extra distance from their beginning point in southern Sonora when they could simply buy the supplies along the route at the various towns, and avoid the added risk of having their livestock run off and stolen by hostile Apaches? It is not logical, at least not to me. If the tale said they started off from the Old Pueblo (Tucson) or Tubac etc or one of the settlements in NM this point would not stand out as quite so odd but there we have it. We are supposed to accept that Peralta put together his expedition in his home town, then slipped past everything in between without a stop anywhere, even after the group had been 'massacred' the sole survivor doesn't bother to run to Tucson to report the attack but keeps quiet about it for years. To me, personal opinion of course, the tale does not 'ring true'.

We tend to get focused in on a point here or there, as the questions are addressed. For the believer or one leaning to accept the whole thing, can you see the pattern of questions along the way of the legend, that cause a skeptic to dismiss the tale and stones as legends or fraud? When compared to other 'legends' we cannot substantiate point after point, while in other legends it is possible to find some substantiation. That doesn't prove the Peralta tale and the stones fraudulent, but until some kind of solid proof turns up it will not make it into the history books as a real event and real stone maps to treasures.

Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

I repeat, who says that the anomaly in western clothes, gold tooth, and tools was with the larger party when they were killed, he may have been there earlier or later ?

Tropcal Tramp

p.s. sorry guys hehehehehhe